"throw capitalism at it" ad absurdum

[Loren Pechtel]

The transaction is moral if you pay what you think you would deserve for the same service.

Not when you pay as little as current conditions allow.

Interesting. As a full time electrical engineer, my hourly pay is significantly more than minimum wage. Therefore my hours are individually worth more than minimum wage. Therefore if I am buying a hamburger at McDonalds, the cashier and the frycook should both receive engineer pay while serving me, but receive minimum wage when serving a fellow minimum wage earner.

That would make an interesting accounting snarl.

And not be paid at all while serving the unemployed.

 

[untermensche]

The power to withhold carrots is absolutely not a stick. It is the very essence of immorality to confuse the two.

Giving your labor to something is not getting a carrot.

It is giving something.

The pay is just compensation, it is what a person is owed, not some carrot.

Firing somebody is not withholding a carrot. It causes harm. Even if in your pretend world it doesn't.

If it is done capriciously or at the will of one individual it is harming somebody immorally.

Your system is a system for rabbits, not humans.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Interesting. As a full time electrical engineer, my hourly pay is significantly more than minimum wage. Therefore my hours are individually worth more than minimum wage. Therefore if I am buying a hamburger at McDonalds, the cashier and the frycook should both receive engineer pay while serving me, but receive minimum wage when serving a fellow minimum wage earner.

That would make an interesting accounting snarl.

I understand that morality is tough for those who only know capitalism. It has no inherent morality. It says to exploit to the greatest extent in law.

Their pay should be what you would expect for the same work, not other work.

About a decade ago I was involved in putting things back together after a burglary. For most of the week I was doing work that mostly could have been hired out for 1/3 of my rate. Did we (there were three of us involved--everyone in the company that knew how, regardless of title) get paid less because we were doing lower class work? No.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The power to withhold carrots is absolutely not a stick. It is the very essence of immorality to confuse the two.

Giving your labor to something is not getting a carrot.

It is giving something.

The pay is just compensation, it is what a person is owed, not some carrot.

Firing somebody is not withholding a carrot. It causes harm. Even if in your pretend world it doesn't.

If it is done capriciously or at the will of one individual it is harming somebody immorally.

Your system is a system for rabbits, not humans.

I don't give my labor, I sell my labor. My pay is not "just compensation", it is the purchase price of my labor.

In the real world, firing someone is not applying a stick, it is withholding carrots. All exchanges must be mutual consent, and if the employer no longer consents there can no longer be an exchange. The right to cease an exchange must be held by both the employer AND the employee. Otherwise you are saying that the employer is the SLAVE of the employee. It is typical, collectivists advocating slavery.

You'll never understand basic morality of exchange until you learn the difference between a carrot and a stick.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But I know what my time is worth. If I am doing work, whether it be testing a circuit or reeling a cable, that is what my time is worth. Others can also reel cables for less. If I were flipping burgers I would call myself "under-employed" while others would call themselves "employed". You are getting even more inconsistent than ususal.

This is about what your labor is worth. Not your time.

When you are doing something technical your labor is worth more, sure.

But what the person should be paid is what you would expect to be paid for doing the same thing.

That is morality.

I know it is tough for some to put themselves into the place of others. This is called empathy.

Some of us live in worlds other than your fantasyland.

I'm going to expect to be paid more to flip burgers than I'm paid to write code--I like the latter, the former is boring and going to bother my back so I want extra to do it.

Of course that means I'm not going to be hired as a burger-flipper but your "logic" doesn't take this into consideration.

 

[untermensche]

I understand that morality is tough for those who only know capitalism. It has no inherent morality. It says to exploit to the greatest extent in law.

Their pay should be what you would expect for the same work, not other work.

About a decade ago I was involved in putting things back together after a burglary. For most of the week I was doing work that mostly could have been hired out for 1/3 of my rate. Did we (there were three of us involved--everyone in the company that knew how, regardless of title) get paid less because we were doing lower class work? No.

So you did some labor and were compensated?

And you are claiming you were paid too much?

Probably true.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

About a decade ago I was involved in putting things back together after a burglary. For most of the week I was doing work that mostly could have been hired out for 1/3 of my rate. Did we (there were three of us involved--everyone in the company that knew how, regardless of title) get paid less because we were doing lower class work? No.

So you did some labor and were compensated?

And you are claiming you were paid too much?

Probably true.

Loren isn't claiming to have been overpaid. Her labor is worth $X per hour, so even when doing work that could be done for less by someone else, since it was Loren doing it the labor was worth $X per hour.

Earlier in this thread someone compared your economics to saying consensual sex is rape. Now it is like saying rape is consensual sex.

 

[untermensche]

Giving your labor to something is not getting a carrot.

It is giving something.

The pay is just compensation, it is what a person is owed, not some carrot.

Firing somebody is not withholding a carrot. It causes harm. Even if in your pretend world it doesn't.

If it is done capriciously or at the will of one individual it is harming somebody immorally.

Your system is a system for rabbits, not humans.

I don't give my labor, I sell my labor.

How does that work?

You mean unless you are paid every morning you will do no work that day?

If you are doing work without getting paid you are giving it in the hopes you will get paid.

My pay is not "just compensation", it is the purchase price of my labor.

That's what a purchase is.

Giving somebody compensation for the value placed in what they are selling.

It is giving them what is "owed" them.

Your pay is what is owed you.

It is not some carrot leading you someplace. You are already there.

That is some fantasy story for children.

In the real world the threat of being fired is a huge stick. About as big a stick as can be used.

Closing your eyes to reality or trying to twist reality into what it is not is not morality.

 

[Elixir]

Obvious nonsense.

I build space widgets. A widget will produce 10,000N of thrust forever when energized by 1 watt of power. I'm the only guy who knows how to build them. It takes me 500 hours of effort to build one widget.

However, one step in the process requires three hands to correctly insert the thingamajig. I need 10 minutes of work from an assistant to do this, no special training required.

Are you really saying the assistant is as valuable as I am?

If they are needed for final production they are as essential.

Note the bolded difference.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Obvious nonsense.

I build space widgets. A widget will produce 10,000N of thrust forever when energized by 1 watt of power. I'm the only guy who knows how to build them. It takes me 500 hours of effort to build one widget.

However, one step in the process requires three hands to correctly insert the thingamajig. I need 10 minutes of work from an assistant to do this, no special training required.

Are you really saying the assistant is as valuable as I am?

If they are needed for final production they are as essential.

Not in some inferior position because there is a division of labor. With as much an ownership of profits as all who labor.

Remember this is human morality. Treating human labor as the thing of greatest value.

And that includes intellectual labor. But owning while others manage is not intellectual labor.

1) So 10 minutes of unskilled work is as valuable as 500 hours of extremely skilled work??

2) We've already been over this bit about owners. The only owners that don't actually work at it are investors--which are to a large degree the average people's retirement savings. Oops, you are actually arguing that the workers are stealing from the owners, not the other way around!

- - - Updated - - -

About a decade ago I was involved in putting things back together after a burglary. For most of the week I was doing work that mostly could have been hired out for 1/3 of my rate. Did we (there were three of us involved--everyone in the company that knew how, regardless of title) get paid less because we were doing lower class work? No.

So you did some labor and were compensated?

And you are claiming you were paid too much?

Probably true.

No, I am pointing out that when a high skill worker does something beneath their level they're still paid according to their skill.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I don't give my labor, I sell my labor.

How does that work?

You mean unless you are paid every morning you will do no work that day?

That is an absurd fantasy.

If you are doing work without getting paid you are giving it in the hopes you will get paid.

I know I will get paid because that is the mutual agreement that my employer and I freely entered into.

My pay is not "just compensation", it is the purchase price of my labor.

That's what a purchase is.

Giving somebody compensation for the value placed in what they are selling.

It is giving them what is "owed" them.

Your pay is what is owed you.

It is not some carrot leading you someplace. You are already there.

That is some fantasy story for children.

And you lose the analogy.

In the real world the threat of being fired is a huge stick. About as big a stick as can be used.

Closing your eyes to reality or trying to twist reality into what it is not is not morality.

Dissolving an mutual arrangement because it is no longer mutual is not a stick. It is withholding carrots, nothing more. You are immoral if you confuse the two. If you think there is no difference between withholding a reward and applying punishment, I suggest you learn on your own hide before imposing your dictatorial regime on the rest of us.

 

[untermensche]

1) So 10 minutes of unskilled work is as valuable as 500 hours of extremely skilled work??

People in a democratic setting will freely decide that skilled work is more valuable than less skilled work.

They want to attract and keep skilled workers. They want to be compensated for training and time on the job.

All unions had pay scales. people were not all paid the same thing.

You are making no point.

You are not justifying dictatorship in the least.

So you did some labor and were compensated?

And you are claiming you were paid too much?

Probably true.

No, I am pointing out that when a high skill worker does something beneath their level they're still paid according to their skill.

It can happen, but it is a dodge not an attempt to answer the problem.

What the person should be paid is what you would want to do the same work. Considering profits from the work of all involved. Not what you might possibly get.

That is morality. That is placing yourself into the shoes of your fellow man.

 

[untermensche]

How does that work?

You mean unless you are paid every morning you will do no work that day?

That is an absurd fantasy.

I agree, trying to make what you say correlate to the world is a fantasy. You said you do not give labor. Unless you are paid before you give it of course you do.

If you are doing work without getting paid you are giving it in the hopes you will get paid.

I know I will get paid because that is the mutual agreement that my employer and I freely entered into.

You could get fired. And your pay could be withheld. You might have to fight for it.

You know nothing. You hope.

My pay is not "just compensation", it is the purchase price of my labor.

That's what a purchase is.

Giving somebody compensation for the value placed in what they are selling.

It is giving them what is "owed" them.

Your pay is what is owed you.

It is not some carrot leading you someplace. You are already there.

That is some fantasy story for children.

And you lose the analogy.

You win by saying nothing?

Wow, you sure do make it easy for yourself.

Dissolving an mutual arrangement because it is no longer mutual is not a stick.

If only one of the two can do the firing and only one can be fired it is not a mutual arrangement. Nothing mutual about it. An arrangement sure. Mutual means everybody is at the same level.

It is just a power structure submitted to for one reason or another.

A form of coercion.

 

[LordKiran]

I'm still waiting to hear Unter's rationale for why employees are deserving of a say in company decisions but not consumers when both are a part of the economic system that make such a business possible, and when applying Unter's definition of "Investment" both are "Investing" in said company.

 

[untermensche]

I'm still waiting to hear Unter's rationale for why employees are deserving of a say in company decisions but not consumers when both are a part of the economic system that make such a business possible, and when applying Unter's definition of "Investment" both are "Investing" in said company.

Consumers have a say.

They have a say as to how much they will pay and how much they will buy.

But they cannot demand to pay less than it costs to make something.

 

[LordKiran]

I'm still waiting to hear Unter's rationale for why employees are deserving of a say in company decisions but not consumers when both are a part of the economic system that make such a business possible, and when applying Unter's definition of "Investment" both are "Investing" in said company.

Consumers have a say.

They have a say as to how much they will pay and how much they will buy.

But they cannot demand to pay less than it costs to make something.

Consumers have about as much say as employees do "Love it or leave it."

 

[untermensche]

Consumers have a say.

They have a say as to how much they will pay and how much they will buy.

But they cannot demand to pay less than it costs to make something.

Consumers have about as much say as employees do "Love it or leave it."

As much say about what?

They have a little more say about how they spend their time.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Consumers have a say.

They have a say as to how much they will pay and how much they will buy.

But they cannot demand to pay less than it costs to make something.

Consumers have about as much say as employees do "Love it or leave it."

Both have a say in what's going on. Employees have a lot more to say. But I would argue that an employee even in this so called dictatorship has more say on what goes on then a person democratically voting in the US.

 

[untermensche]

Consumers have about as much say as employees do "Love it or leave it."

Both have a say in what's going on. Employees have a lot more to say. But I would argue that an employee even in this so called dictatorship has more say on what goes on then a person democratically voting in the US.

Their ideas can be totally ignored at will.

Their jobs can be sent overseas without their consent.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Both have a say in what's going on. Employees have a lot more to say. But I would argue that an employee even in this so called dictatorship has more say on what goes on then a person democratically voting in the US.

Their ideas can be totally ignored at will.

Their jobs can be sent overseas without their consent.

I didn't say they had full say. I said they had more say. And your vote last Nov mattered how? Were those people listening to you?