T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
Some say he was banging M2. Maybe that's really why they juiced him - in the story anyway.
-
Features
DERAIL: So the Crucifixion - What's up with that?
- Thread starter Tom Sawyer
- Start date
DrZoidberg
Contributor
But why should they? That law was stupid.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
There's also context. He's affirming the culture and values of his day, ie that women are and should be property of their legal guardian. Back then the victim of rape wasn't the woman, but her legal guardian. The woman was a non entity. Also affirm by "women shouldn't speak in church". Truly horrific values.
There's a lot of people in the west whining about the backward values in Islam and how they couldn't possibly integrate into the west. I'd say the Bible is just as bad. These values are not worthy of any respect. And if the Bible is the product of a god, well... that god is evil.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Are you deflecting and changing the topic because this is horrendously embarrassing for Christianity?
It is also unclear what you mean. By the west you can mean any number of things.
The Orient (East) and Occident (West) are ancient Greek terms. Pagan terms. The Orient is where the sun rises and the Occident is where it sets.
By Greek and Roman tradition the Orient was where all the money was (because of fertile soils and plenty of sun) and the West was all the stuff that nobody wanted. In Roman mythology the crap western lands is why the westerners are better fighters. It was a greater competition for meagre resources. When they talked the east they just meant "the places with all the wealth". A lot of the myths and imagery surrounding the East is directly lifted from the Greeks and their conflicts with the Persians. These were reintroduced back into western mythology after the meteoric rise of Islam. And loads of lies was superimposed onto the Muslims for propaganda purposes.
For example. When Ottoman pirates attacked ships this was some sort of scurge and proof of Islamic evil. Completely ignoring that Christian pirates were doing exactly the same thing. The Christian pirates of Malta were notorious and especially cruel and vicious. They invented the suicide bomber. A guy carrying explosives running in under enemy positions was guaranteed a place in the Christian Catholic heaven.
It's all just propaganda and myths. Christianity wasn't a bullwark protecting against Islam. The Austro-Hungarian empire defended against the Turks in 1520. That wasn't a win for Christianity. That was a win for the Austro-Hungarians.
Don't forget that in the 16'th century all countries in Europe were monarchies. All insular, paranoid and poor. The Ottoman empire was cosmopolitan, modern and rich. I'm not so sure the fall of Vienna would have been a bad thing. Shakespeare would just have made his references to the Quran instead of the Bible. I can't see how much would be different? Muslim empires were, by tradition, quite liberal and and open. Christian empires... not so much. This has of course nothing to do with the religions or religious teaching of each religion. Just simply a result of their geographic locations.
We couldn't have known back then that industrialisation was about to kick off in England. Something which Christianity has no part in or deserves any credit for. And if we'd been Muslim then, would anything have developed any differently? Who knows? All Christianity has every done is protect Christianity. It certainly never protected the Christians.
So again... you're just using words you've heard but don't seem to understand.
Learner
Veteran Member
A governing law for this nation (not Christians) was needed then because people were doing seriously harmful and corruptible things as was throughout the bible. The fundamental laws (Gods laws) were the 10 commandements which people at times ignored (impov).
DrZoidberg
Contributor
The first three tend commandments are total bullshit. That's not a good start for fundamental laws. The rest are just common sense, golden rule, laws that apply to every functioning society. Since Soddom and Gomorra were functining societies, the implication is that what they ignored the first three bullshit laws, which should be ignored by anybody with any sense or self respect. The conclusion is that God punished them for no valid reason. Anything I missed?
And I'm skipping here the fact that there's no archeological or historical reason to think these cities ever existed. They were most likely wholly mythical. Which makes God a bit less evil. But the fact that he, in the Bible, takes responsiblity for it makes him evil. A bit like a guy who shows up at a police station admitting to a bunch of murders he didn't commit.
Learner
Veteran Member
The Ten commandments appeared only AFTER the Israelites had done the very things the ten laws LATER commands not to. Included and quite understandably the first three that came about by woshipping idols for example golden bulls etc. The laws with common sense golden rules are 'good' that you agree with. Using common sense laws is not in everyones mental grasp as we can see even today. So our society like Moses creates harsher governing laws detering from doing bad things.
At the moment the only thing you probably missed are the many scores of cities confirmed and still existing today. I can only ponder - what would be left of a city destroyed?
Last edited:
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Ok, challenge accepted. Please show me a society where the last three commandments or golden rule aren't respected? They're always enshrined in law in every society. Breaking these laws are always news.
Oh, btw, forget, the commandment of banning coveting. Also complete bullshit. Which I'm happy that we've ignored, since coveting is the basis for our modern market economy. And the one about always respecting your parents. Nah. Respect always has to be earned. There's some nasty parents out there.
So five out of the ten commandments aren't total bullshit.
Still, a dick move to punish people for breaking rules they weren't aware even existed.
Can you point to any justification for punishing the Gomorrahn's and Soddomites? He killed all of them. Please, feel free to elaborate on how this can be justified?
Yes, but not this one. Incidentally, we should mention that the reason these cities perhaps don't exist is because they were destroyed by natural disasters. Which would also mean that they weren't at all destroyed for breaking God's commandments, any more than children with leukemia get it because of all the wicked things they've done. Religious people have always been good at attributing natural disasters to God's wrath.
The problem is of course that, under closer inspection, these never hold water. Sweden for example, an early adopter of gay legalisation and gay marriage, perched upon the middle of a tectonic plate, geographically shielded from monsoons and all manner of nastiness seems to always receive God's blessing. Imagine that. Being a gay atheist seems to be just the sort of thing that God rewards.
While plenty of affluent cities in the Middle-East were situated on flood plains.
Learner
Veteran Member
It is more or less the ones in the news I'm referring to.
fair enough these are your choices.
You must mean not obeying the law.
I'll first throw in my erm..'cop out card' for the mo ... God is righteously Just!
continue bit later
DrZoidberg
Contributor
I don't follow you. Are you agreeing that you are wrong? Because that's what it looks like. If these weren't universally agreed upon rules of conduct they wouldn't be in the news. It'd be more like "Lock the door honey, the Johnssons are on a murderess rampage again", and nothing worth reporting on.
So you'd be completely fine with the capital of coveting, USA, being completely wiped out by God? Because you think they deserve it. All those Americans surely has it coming, don't they? Murdered by a loving God because he's so loving? The whole bunch of them. Because they deserve it.
You just pointed out that Moses on the mount happens after this event.
Quite the cop out. You're a Quisling.
Lion IRC
Contributor
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2016
- Messages
- 5,072
- Basic Beliefs
- Biblical theist
Um...it was you who used the term "the west".
Why would I need to deflect?
I'm not in the least embarrassed - let alone "horrendously embarrassed"
The West should be grateful to Judeo-Christianity and (to a lesser extent) Islam for the society it has inherited.
Yes, we are, just like buildings should be grateful for the scaffolding and construction equipment that was used to build it.
Once the building is up, though, you can take down the scaffolding and drive the bulldozers away. They're not needed anymore once the building is there.
Once the building is up, though, you can take down the scaffolding and drive the bulldozers away. They're not needed anymore once the building is there.
Lion IRC
Contributor
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2016
- Messages
- 5,072
- Basic Beliefs
- Biblical theist
Well I think it's the bricks and mortar for which we should be grateful.
I'm not talking about 'scaffolding'.
Western civilisation rests on two pillars - Athens and Jerusalem.
The building can't pretend it exists with no foundations.
I'm not talking about 'scaffolding'.
Western civilisation rests on two pillars - Athens and Jerusalem.
The building can't pretend it exists with no foundations.
Learner
Veteran Member
I am sort of agreeing with you here at least. You've decribed a non common sense lawless scenario.
Why do you mention USA , is there something about Americans you feel about - that fits your S&G destroyed cities example?
Noted
DrZoidberg
Contributor
This is the post you are responding to
https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...s-up-with-that&p=386368&viewfull=1#post386368
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Because of the cold war. USA in many cases ditched democracy in favour of capitalism. USA became the poster child of embracing greed and coveting as a virtue.
Malintent
Veteran Member
LOL! the Christian God IS the ultimate anthropomophification of every unknown natural process and poorly understood human experience. God is the personification of agency.. an attribute that humans automatically assign to every observation first (just in case it's a tiger ready to pounce in the tall grass).
Lion IRC
Contributor
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2016
- Messages
- 5,072
- Basic Beliefs
- Biblical theist
My point is that atheists arguing what God is not, or what God cannot be, are bringing their own anthropomorphism to the table. I say God is loving because He does somthing I find to be loving. The counter-apologist argues that God is not loving because of their own ideas about what a loving God would/should do.