DERAIL: So the Crucifixion - What's up with that?

[DrZoidberg]

It's not a case of atheists misunderstanding the doctrine. They simply disbelieve and dislike it. And then they mock it.

It's not that. It just doesn't sense that a Mind capable of Creating a Universe requires a blood sacrifice, a Sacrificial Lamb (an ancient tribal practice), in order to atone for a set of arbitrary conditions.

It doesn't make sense from the first page in Genesis to the last page of the NT. The garden of Eden narrative doesn't make sense because a Omniscient/Omnipotent Being should logically do better than set up a pair of naive innocents to fail, given the conditions, given the presence of the most subtle/cunning of beasts in the garden...and on and on it goes.

Yup. And to continue that line of thought

The assumption that if we (atheists) would understand it then we would agree. So not agreeing implies lack of understanding. Erm... no.

It's not a question of belief vs disbelief. Atheist skeptics have spent an inordinate amount of time arguing the logic of various super hero comics. Not to mention Star Trek episodes. Sorting out the logical consistency of a story or system of beliefs does not require one to agree with it or believe. Logic is just logic.

 

[Learner]

That depends on who you ask..

neither the sexually immoral

I have had non-procreative sex, which some people tell me is immoral.
I have had premarital sex, which some people tell me is immoral.
I have had interracial sex, WSPTMII.
I have masturbated, WSPTMII.
I don't think any of it will send me to Hell. But in each case, I've been told at least once that I'm hell-bent for that.

nor idolaters,

I have, of course, been accused of idolatry for saluting the flag, for pledging allegiance, for accepting evolution...

nor adulterers,

I read Playboy. I even subscribed until recently. According to some, that's adultery.

nor men who practice homosexuality,

Well, I'm not gay, but 20 bucks is 20 bucks...

nor thieves

There was a bank error in my favor once that i did not report.

nor the greedy

not really

nor drunkards,

Never.

nor revilers

wilson seems to think i've reviled him. But wilson's relationship with objective truth seems subordinate to his agenda.

But whether i do some or all of the things on the list, I can't see how you can justify a claim that Jesus loves everyone if these people are going to be punished for all eternity for a finite amount of sin.

All the above forgivable.

 

[DrZoidberg]

That depends on who you ask..

I have had non-procreative sex, which some people tell me is immoral.
I have had premarital sex, which some people tell me is immoral.
I have had interracial sex, WSPTMII.
I have masturbated, WSPTMII.
I don't think any of it will send me to Hell. But in each case, I've been told at least once that I'm hell-bent for that.

nor idolaters,

I have, of course, been accused of idolatry for saluting the flag, for pledging allegiance, for accepting evolution...

nor adulterers,

I read Playboy. I even subscribed until recently. According to some, that's adultery.

nor men who practice homosexuality,

Well, I'm not gay, but 20 bucks is 20 bucks...

nor thieves

There was a bank error in my favor once that i did not report.

nor the greedy

not really

nor drunkards,

Never.

nor revilers

wilson seems to think i've reviled him. But wilson's relationship with objective truth seems subordinate to his agenda.

But whether i do some or all of the things on the list, I can't see how you can justify a claim that Jesus loves everyone if these people are going to be punished for all eternity for a finite amount of sin.

All the above forgivable.

But would he need forgiveness? Just the idea that any of what Keith said is grounds to feel remorse is absurd. Why was any of that considered immoral to begin with?

 

[Keith&Co.]

All the above forgivable.

Yes.
I could probably forgive a theist who thinks that saluting the flag is idolatry, and thus deserving of eternal punishment.

I can't understand the idea that it deserves eternal punishment in the first place.

And I can't bring myself to ask a skybeast to forgive me for doing it.
Partly because I don't believe in any skybeasts, but mostly because it's just an astounding thing to be punished for, for all eternity.

 

[Learner]

We'll never know what Jesus said or didn't say. But we do know what is attributed to him in the Bible. He can't shut up about how wrong homosexuality is. He just goes on and on. Here's the complete list from both testaments.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay/long.htm

I used to say that about my parents ..warning about this warning me about that.

So then why are Christian denominations so different? Jesus was highly sceptical about rich people. He assumed they all got rich by doing evil. So explain how somebody like Donald Trump can get elected with Christian support? If all Christians but you follow false teachings, its' not particularly impressive.

If all Christians but me... which isn't the case but for arguments sake; Who knows? Perhaps he will fullfill the prophecy you'd better watch him ...All things are possible - if Trump can be president.

You're dodging the question. When you evaluate whether another Christian is following a false teaching, how do you go about it?

Anything that conflicts with what Jesus taught and said is false teaching. IMHO

 

[DrZoidberg]

I used to say that about my parents ..warning about this warning me about that.

Used to say what? Did you tell your parents to stop being gay?

So then why are Christian denominations so different? Jesus was highly sceptical about rich people. He assumed they all got rich by doing evil. So explain how somebody like Donald Trump can get elected with Christian support? If all Christians but you follow false teachings, its' not particularly impressive.

If all Christians but me... which isn't the case but for arguments sake; Who knows? Perhaps he will fullfill the prophecy you'd better watch him ...All things are possible - if Trump can be president.

So God works in mysterious ways?

You're dodging the question. When you evaluate whether another Christian is following a false teaching, how do you go about it?

Anything that conflicts with what Jesus taught and said is false teaching. IMHO

It has to do with humility. If you think you know better than another Christian what the true teachings of Christ are then you are arrogant. For anybody to pick one denomination over another requires arrogance. It's not just denomination. It's religion. Just to pick one god over another is arrogant. You're all looking at the same information. And you know that anybody in your denomination is equally arrogant. Do you really want to be in a club where the basic requirement is arrogance?

What's wrong with admitting that you don't know? It's the only honest position.

 

[funinspace]

Proof...ROTFLMAO. For a purported omni-god, the human generated paper trail is pretty meager and chock full of made up stories, especially in the early chapters. I'd be impressed by a holy book that doesn't contradict real geology/archaeology or exist in a vacuum outside of said holy book (Deluge; Babel; Joshua and solar objects; the Exodus; et.al.). I'd be impressed by clear contemporary records of something about this purported Jesus guy that wasn't written by those smitten by the emergent faith. I guess your god couldn't convince the Romans to bother writing anything down and preserving it...

After all, it is your theology that claims that picking the right door is the key to avoiding your god's eternal Auschwitz. You'd think that this purported god would be interesting in snaring more than maybe 10-20% of humanity from his dastardly chambers.

I recommend that you trust the motives of people who are trying to warn you about that 'wrong door'

Ok, I'll trust the sincerity of those Muslims telling me I must accept Allah in order to not be eternally tormented. But, what does that have to do with the cost of tea in China?

You were saying something about 'proof' in conjunction with something about a part of your purported god, temporarily sacrificing another part of itself, to itself... And I laughed, as 'proof' is a exacting word.

 

[ideologyhunter]

The aliens who are live-streaming us are cracking up over our competing fairy tales. Especially when they result in murder or votes for Cheeto.

 

[Learner]

Used to say what? Did you tell your parents to stop being gay?

I mean't I used to think they wouldn't shut up about all sorts of things..Bless them I was foolish.

So God works in mysterious ways?

People make mysteriously odd choices.

It has to do with humility. If you think you know better than another Christian what the true teachings of Christ are then you are arrogant. For anybody to pick one denomination over another requires arrogance. It's not just denomination. It's religion. Just to pick one god over another is arrogant. You're all looking at the same information. And you know that anybody in your denomination is equally arrogant. Do you really want to be in a club where the basic requirement is arrogance?

This is preached by several preachers from different denominations about adding to scripture or taking away.

What's wrong with admitting that you don't know? It's the only honest position.

Don't know if Jesus should be the main teaching according to what he 'most of all' says ?

 

[Learner]

The aliens who are live-streaming us are cracking up over our competing fairy tales. Especially when they result in murder or votes for Cheeto.

The men in white coats are anxious to meet those who believe in aliens.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The aliens who are live-streaming us are cracking up over our competing fairy tales.

Now that whole rapture thing makes sense. They simply appreciate humor.

 

[funinspace]

The aliens who are live-streaming us are cracking up over our competing fairy tales.

Now that whole rapture thing makes sense. They simply appreciate humor.

Alright, now I will need to go re-read 'The Heaven Makers' by Frank Herbert, as it has been a few decades...

 

[Lion IRC]

The intellectual dishonesty here is disgraceful.
It's the same old bait and switch over and over again.

Oh please Christians can you explain the doctrine of Jesus giving His life to save us from sin?

And then when sincere attempts to answer are offered, atheists revert back to;

...Jesus never suffered.
...Jesus didn't die.
...Jesus was faking it.
...There's no such thing as sin/evil
...Self-sacrifice is a passive aggressive mental illness
...I hate God. God isn't real.

It's not a case of atheists misunderstanding the doctrine. They simply disbelieve and dislike it. And then they mock it.

There is no greater love than laying down your own life as a sacrifice for those you love - and in Jesus' case that's all of us. The sad thing is when you see the self-sacrifice belittled and mocked by the very people who Jesus is trying to help.

Jesus is raised from the dead and the atheist (disingenuously) asks 'why would an all powerful Being do that?'

...um, hello. Because you asked for proof!

Well, I believe it's a sin not to make fun of somebody who makes a stupid statement while also claiming they know what they're talking about. Respecting it just leads to stupid ideas to keep being circulated. And that's no help to anyone.

The respect our society awards to religious beliefs is absurd IMHO. We really need to stop. I don't understand why we don't treat religious ideas and beliefs just like any beliefs and ideas? And evaluate them just like we would any claims.

I think letting this nonsense slide for 2000 years is more than enough respect granted. Time to pull the plug on it.

Which belief system do you think is older, theism or atheism?
The idea that there is no God has been around for a very long time.
A complete absence of evidence for God, so you say, and yet the number of religious is rising.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Which belief system do you think is older, theism or atheism?

What's your definition of 'belief' system' that would include atheism?

The idea that there is no God has been around for a very long time.

And....?

A complete absence of evidence for God, so you say, and yet the number of religious is rising.

Oh. Argument from popularity? Yeah, that's compelling.
Still waiting for any evidence for a deity...

 

[bilby]

Proof...ROTFLMAO. For a purported omni-god, the human generated paper trail is pretty meager and chock full of made up stories, especially in the early chapters. I'd be impressed by a holy book that doesn't contradict real geology/archaeology or exist in a vacuum outside of said holy book (Deluge; Babel; Joshua and solar objects; the Exodus; et.al.). I'd be impressed by clear contemporary records of something about this purported Jesus guy that wasn't written by those smitten by the emergent faith. I guess your god couldn't convince the Romans to bother writing anything down and preserving it...

After all, it is your theology that claims that picking the right door is the key to avoiding your god's eternal Auschwitz. You'd think that this purported god would be interesting in snaring more than maybe 10-20% of humanity from his dastardly chambers.

I recommend that you trust the motives of people who are trying to warn you about that 'wrong door'

They are the same people who recommend I give them 10% of my earnings.

No doubt they have nothing but my best interests at heart.

 

[DBT]

The aliens who are live-streaming us are cracking up over our competing fairy tales. Especially when they result in murder or votes for Cheeto.

The men in white coats are anxious to meet those who believe in aliens.

They should be more interested in those who believe in and worship an invisible god who lives in the sky in order to gain favour and live forever, these folks being more numerous and more troublesome.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Well, I believe it's a sin not to make fun of somebody who makes a stupid statement while also claiming they know what they're talking about. Respecting it just leads to stupid ideas to keep being circulated. And that's no help to anyone.

The respect our society awards to religious beliefs is absurd IMHO. We really need to stop. I don't understand why we don't treat religious ideas and beliefs just like any beliefs and ideas? And evaluate them just like we would any claims.

I think letting this nonsense slide for 2000 years is more than enough respect granted. Time to pull the plug on it.

Which belief system do you think is older, theism or atheism?
The idea that there is no God has been around for a very long time.
A complete absence of evidence for God, so you say, and yet the number of religious is rising.

It might make sense to ask which came first, atheism or theism. Theism means belief in gods.

Atheism predates theism, just ask any child that has not yet been indoctrinated.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Which belief system do you think is older, theism or atheism?
The idea that there is no God has been around for a very long time.

When neanderthal's and humans met for not-Wimbledon playing not-tennis, which team do you think most often won?

I don't think you understand how atheism works. You are also an atheist. There's about 6000 known gods. You are an atheist about 5999 of them. You're only not-atheist about one god. Since you are also a follower of the non-Odin atheist belief system, can you please tell me how that effects your life? Does the fact that you're a non-Atenist create problems in your life?

There's a problem with the atheism/agnisticism/theism dichotomy. it was created in a time when the assumption was the Christian God or not the Christian God. It's obviously a false dichotomy. The choice isn't by those two options but between the Christian God and any shit I make up now.

But I think you are wrong. Every hunter/gatherer band they've found has been animist. We seem to have an instinct toward animist theist faith. So that's the default state. Anything else requires a sophisticated education/brainwashing system. I think atheism has been fairly rare historically. Not as rare as monotheism. But pretty damn rare.

A complete absence of evidence for God, so you say, and yet the number of religious is rising.

A lot of people believing something isn't evidence of that it's true. A lot of people voted for Trump because they thought he was a good leader. Lot's of people believe him rather than the media. People are idiots. Especially in groups. There's nothing as good at making people believe idiocy like belief re-enforcement. BTW, psychologists have studied religion. People saying "amen" after the priests speak is conditioning.

 

[Lion IRC]

A lot of people believe in man made global warming.
...yeah but ya know what? Don't bother asking why they believe that.

Because EVERYONE KNOWS there's absolutely no correlation between evidence and its effect on the way people think.

 

[DrZoidberg]

A lot of people believe in man made global warming.
...yeah but ya know what? Don't bother asking why they believe that.

Because EVERYONE KNOWS there's absolutely no correlation between evidence and its effect on the way people think.

But they don't believe in global warming. There's not enough people who believe in it to do jack shit about it. Our belief in global warming is entirely lip service. Whatever measures has been done have been pathetic. Trump is the president of USA. evidence we believe in global warming or not?

You couldn't have picked a worse example