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What do American *Democrats stand for*?

Thing is, hitting Trump on that one exposes her to implying that your wages are NOT HIGH ENOUGH, and then she's getting called a liberal for wanting to raise the minimum wage. Can't go letting people think you're a liberal during an election year, can you?

She ain't no liberal. Her husband was no liberal.

Obama was no liberal.

Bernie is a liberal.

It is a shame Democrats supported Hillary instead of a liberal.
It is the best we can get elected. The Republicans have so thoroughly brainwashed their supporters that they have convinced them people like Obama and the Clintons are communists.
 
Yeah, she went way overboard on that one. I live in Central Florida, and saw tons of political ads before the election, hers, Trumps, and so called "independent" groups. She never bothered to use this against him.



It may have actually been effective, compared to Trump's statements she chose to use in her ads.


Thing is, hitting Trump on that one exposes her to implying that your wages are NOT HIGH ENOUGH, and then she's getting called a liberal for wanting to raise the minimum wage. Can't go letting people think you're a liberal during an election year, can you?


It might, but I think the average voter would care more about their wages than whether or not DT called Rosie O'Donnell a fat pig.
 
She ain't no liberal. Her husband was no liberal.

Obama was no liberal.

Bernie is a liberal.

It is a shame Democrats supported Hillary instead of a liberal.
It is the best we can get elected. The Republicans have so thoroughly brainwashed their supporters that they have convinced them people like Obama and the Clintons are communists.

I think there were millions who sat out who would have been energized had Bernie been the candidate.

Hillary is not a leader. And if you are not a leader you need good ideas, she had few.

And very few who supported Hillary who would have preferred Trump to Bernie.

And even some who voted for Trump would have voted for Bernie but not Hillary with all her baggage.
 
Yeah, she went way overboard on that one. I live in Central Florida, and saw tons of political ads before the election, hers, Trumps, and so called "independent" groups. She never bothered to use this against him.



It may have actually been effective, compared to Trump's statements she chose to use in her ads.


Thing is, hitting Trump on that one exposes her to implying that your wages are NOT HIGH ENOUGH, and then she's getting called a liberal for wanting to raise the minimum wage. Can't go letting people think you're a liberal during an election year, can you?

Uh...yeah, I think HRC absolutely needed to call him on this topic. It was a gaping hole between his rhetorical claim to be for the working class and reality. HRC should have hammered on this issue utilizing those comments of his, and his use of H-2B visa worker at his uber exclusive/expensive Florida resort, cuz he somehow couldn't find qualified American maids, waiters, et.al. People already knew she was tied to WS with her coming in second only to Jeb Bush in WS campaign money.
 
It is the best we can get elected. The Republicans have so thoroughly brainwashed their supporters that they have convinced them people like Obama and the Clintons are communists.

I think there were millions who sat out who would have been energized had Bernie been the candidate.
What Sanders wants is likely supported by 60 to 70% of our population. However, the Republicans have successfully fucked the minds of the moderates into thinking that they don't actually support such things. Sanders would have been vilified as a communist and would have lost and Will Wiley would have said, 'should have gone with Clinton'.

And even some who voted for Trump would have voted for Bernie but not Hillary with all her baggage.
And those people are called idiots.
 
Thing is, hitting Trump on that one exposes her to implying that your wages are NOT HIGH ENOUGH, and then she's getting called a liberal for wanting to raise the minimum wage. Can't go letting people think you're a liberal during an election year, can you?

It might, but I think the average voter would care more about their wages than whether or not DT called Rosie O'Donnell a fat pig.
No politician in recent memory got away with the "gaffes" Trump got away with. Political careers were destroyed by much more simple gaffes or statements. Howard Dean was crushed by a "scream" into a unidirectional microphone, recovering from the flu. George Allen who was a rising star disappeared after the macaca incident. Todd Akins blew an easy Senate win with the pregnancy and "legitimate rape" comment.
 
It might, but I think the average voter would care more about their wages than whether or not DT called Rosie O'Donnell a fat pig.
No politician in recent memory got away with the "gaffes" Trump got away with. Political careers were destroyed by much more simple gaffes or statements. Howard Dean was crushed by a "scream" into a unidirectional microphone, recovering from the flu. George Allen who was a rising star disappeared after the macaca incident. Todd Akins blew an easy Senate win with the pregnancy and "legitimate rape" comment.

I agree that no other candidate would get away with the tings that DT said. I also mentioned in previous threads that DT was an example of people voting with their middle finger. He won the Republican primary by running as the "Fuck You" candidate. Given that the things he said to insult others had no effect on his run for the primary, HRC should have considered that it might not have any effect on the general.
 
No politician in recent memory got away with the "gaffes" Trump got away with. Political careers were destroyed by much more simple gaffes or statements. Howard Dean was crushed by a "scream" into a unidirectional microphone, recovering from the flu. George Allen who was a rising star disappeared after the macaca incident. Todd Akins blew an easy Senate win with the pregnancy and "legitimate rape" comment.
I agree that no other candidate would get away with the tings that DT said. I also mentioned in previous threads that DT was an example of people voting with their middle finger. He won the Republican primary by running as the "Fuck You" candidate. Given that the things he said to insult others had no effect on his run for the primary, HRC should have considered that it might not have any effect on the general.
Based on the shock of everyone on Election Night, I think everyone thought it wasn't a bad plan. Let Trump destroy himself. What wasn't expected were the uneducated white people (especially the women) that thought America abandoned them, and suppressed Democrat turnout in the midwest.

Sadly, a Latino VP nominee for Clinton probably would have turned the tables and given Clinton the election.
 
Sadly, a Latino VP nominee for Clinton probably would have turned the tables and given Clinton the election.
Cheech Marin as VP nominee would have done wonders for HRC's campaign :D
 
They seem to like war....Is that part of their platform? What else is part of their platform?

I don't accept your assertion that the Democrats like war. They currently contain the largest block of pacifism in the US political spectrum.

I am reluctant to too harshly criticize the Democrats. They are our only hope of countering the largely fictitious monolith of movement conservatism, which is in reality nothing more than a cover for saying anything that you need to say to convince gullible people into voting for a class war that is not in their own economic interests. People like you. Trump is the penultimate example of this, having lied his way to the presidency by repeating the worst of the lies he is at once the victim of it and the beneficiary of it.

That being said, Democrats do share at least a part of the blame for our current situation. They haven't been able or inclined to forcefully counter movement conservatism. They have for more than thirty years suffered from an identity crisis and an obvious lack of vision. They have been unable or unwilling to defend the middle class against the pro-upper class, Republican party. They tinker around the edges, arguing for more economic justice but they for the most part have accepted the fiction of trickle down economics, that the objective of the economy is higher profits and that the way to generate them is by suppressing wages, less regulation and lower taxes. Because of this abdication of economics to the Republicans the corporations and the wealthy have enjoyed higher profits and higher incomes while the middle class has been shafted through both Democratic as well as Republican administrations.

They have for the most part retreated from populism and the defense of the workers into what I think that they view as their past successes, the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, both of the 1960's and the woman's movement of the 1970's. This has resulted in the championing of identity politics in the Democratic party, playing into the hands of the Republicans and movement conservatism. Identity politics divides the middle class, much to the delight of the Republicans and their wealthy sponsors.

This is me trying not to be too harsh.
 
I agree that no other candidate would get away with the tings that DT said. I also mentioned in previous threads that DT was an example of people voting with their middle finger. He won the Republican primary by running as the "Fuck You" candidate. Given that the things he said to insult others had no effect on his run for the primary, HRC should have considered that it might not have any effect on the general.
Based on the shock of everyone on Election Night, I think everyone thought it wasn't a bad plan. Let Trump destroy himself. What wasn't expected were the uneducated white people (especially the women) that thought America abandoned them, and suppressed Democrat turnout in the midwest.

I agree that the Republicans have, and have been, working to make it harder for people to vote. This especially applies to people who are statistically more likely to vote for Democrats. I remember some of the lines shown in Miami FL. in 2012. There were people still waiting in line to vote after the election had already been called for President Obama.

I don't agree that using the things that Trump said would work against him was a wise strategy. The things Trump said that were actually used in ads, while not using the video I pointed out are what I'm talking about. If anything I think it reminded some people of what they don't like about some aspects of today's culture.

Things like some video game critics complaining about sexy women in video games. I know that pisses me off, among other people. I just happened to think that SCOTUS was more important, than my opinion that this particular part of the left needs to back off and stay out of my game room. Others would disagree, and will vote accordingly.

Sadly, a Latino VP nominee for Clinton probably would have turned the tables and given Clinton the election.

I have my doubts about that. I'm not convinced that choosing her VP on the basis of his ethnicity is going to necessarily help her. Now if who she chooses is perceived as a wise choice, in terms of apparent competence, it might help her. Choosing the equivalent of a Sarah Palin because of an inborn characteristic may well hurt her chances. I think that the latter is more likely.
 
Sadly, a Latino VP nominee for Clinton probably would have turned the tables and given Clinton the election.

Yes, that may have made a big difference to many Democrats. And that is a good example of identity politics and playing to race on the left; race being important and merit, skill, and competence not mentioned.
 
What Sanders wants is likely supported by 60 to 70% of our population. However, the Republicans have successfully fucked the minds of the moderates into thinking that they don't actually support such things. Sanders would have been vilified as a communist and would have lost and Will Wiley would have said, 'should have gone with Clinton'.

I believe that's just buying into Republican and current Democratic establishment propaganda. The Democrats lost their way when Bill Clinton rode into town and brought Third Wayism to the Democratic party. Democrats were extremely successful with Sandersian rhetoric and policies before the Democratic party changed gears and went Republican-lite. In fact the most popular president of all time was extremely liberal and we had a constitutional amendment put into place to keep him from getting elected for a fourth time which he probably would have done if he hadn't died in office: Franklin Roosevelt.

Roosevelt democrats were very successful.

Clinton democrats, other than Clinton himself, have not been so successful.

It's time for the Democratic party to get back to its roots.
 
The Democrats lost their way when Bill Clinton rode into town and brought Third Wayism to the Democratic party. Democrats were extremely successful with Sandersian rhetoric and policies before the Democratic party changed gears and went Republican-lite. In fact the most popular president of all time was extremely liberal and we had a constitutional amendment put into place to keep him from getting elected for a fourth time which he probably would have done if he hadn't died in office: Franklin Roosevelt.

Roosevelt democrats were very successful.

Clinton democrats, other than Clinton himself, have not been so successful.

It's time for the Democratic party to get back to its roots.

Yep, same here with Labour. "New Labour" or Blairism has proven to be a losing position in the long run, and the real source of Labour's existential crisis.

Because if everyone's singing from the same neoliberal hymn sheet, people internalise it as common sense. Then the lite version starts to sound like incompetent half measures. The party of the left ends up chasing the centre ground perpetually to the right. Twenty years on, you've turned yourself into your enemy, who moves further right and wins anyway.
 
It wasn't Hilary's message, but all during the Hillary Campaign there was a (hired?) army of shills that pushed that kind of shit pretty aggressively across most social media platforms. It's generally assumed that most of these were paid trolls pushing a message from a media/advertising/marketing company or three, because their talking points tended to be pretty similar over stretches of time. The most memorable example was the sudden flood of commenters, opinion posters, letters in local newspapers and speakers at public events who said Bernie Sanders calling Hilary "unqualified" was "Dangerous and irresponsible" and that his statements could be used by Republicans as ammunition against her and that his failure to realize this showed that he didn't understand how politics worked, or something. It was such a consistent and specific message -- and even the same key phrases over and over again: "That is dangerous and irresponsible!" or "Hilary Clinton is the most qualified candidate in history!" -- that people figured out pretty quick that it was more paid marketing than it was actual supporters.

Those same hired shills were also behind a lot of the "Vote for Hilary or you're sexist!" rhetoric. There was a two-week period where anyone who could clearly articulate the reasons they supported Bernie over Hilary (which, if I think about it, includes basically everyone who DID support Bernie at the time) was told "The mansplainers are out in force today!" (Yes, that exact phrase) followed by the suggestion that they should "Admit it: it's time for a woman president!"

If you could call it "interference," it's the fact that most people tended to associate the marketing campaign with Hilary Clinton's campaign, whether it is fair or not. I think a lot of people assumed that she or her office or Debbie Shultz or someone else close to her was personally directing the Shills and helping to organize their marketing push. It's more likely that some company somewhere was hired by a Super PAC to push pro-Hilary messages and simply didn't do enough of the research to figure out how negatively their campaign was being received by just about everyone who didn't already support her.

I think if Hillary truly didn't want to be seen as the "Vote for me or you are sexist/racist" candidate, she could have taken some steps to downplay it rather than feed into it. She didn't have to use the slogan "I'm with her". It made her sound both self-entitled and pushing her gender, as the emphasis was usually on the last syllable and often followed by the "its about time for a woman president" line by those you speak of. They really should have pushed "She's with you" or something like that.

Anybody remember that one debate where Bernie told Hillary to wait her turn after she interrupted him and we then heard accusations of him being "disrespectful to women" and the Bernie Bro nonsense? And when Madeleine Albright introduced Hillary at a Hillary event saying there is a special place in hell for women who don't support Hillary? Is that now so forgotten?

She also could have pushed for truly progressive policy as Bernie did and could have pushed a message of unison rather than division, as Obama did before her. Remember Obama's "Yes We Can" and "There is no Red America or Blue America. There is no Black America or White America. There is the United States of America"? Hillary instead came across as the status quo "No, We Can't" candidate and we were constantly hearing about the "black vote" and "latino vote" and "women vote" etc as if these groups of people are monoliths. And it certainly didn't help that she was running against Trump with his own pushing of identity politics (creating an other to fear). The identity politics in this election really was stark, and was pushed by both the Republicans and Democrats for different reasons and from different angles.

This is correct. But in their defense, the Clinton campaign faced two unknowns in the two campaigns, primary and the general election, that they ran, how to run a woman for president and how to run against a serial lair, pseudo-populist, proto-fascist. Both presented problems that a modern campaign for president hadn't faced before.

Couple this with the baggage that Clinton carried since she had actually governed before, that she is a policy wonk in a short attention span society that can't seem to concentrate on a single thought for more than 10 seconds, and finally, that she is a Democrat with all of the lack of focus that being one entails especially the lack of support for the middle class and workers in general as well as the obsession with identity politics, it is amazing that they did as well as well as they did.
 
What Sanders wants is likely supported by 60 to 70% of our population. However, the Republicans have successfully fucked the minds of the moderates into thinking that they don't actually support such things. Sanders would have been vilified as a communist and would have lost and Will Wiley would have said, 'should have gone with Clinton'.

I believe that's just buying into Republican and current Democratic establishment propaganda.
Naw, it is accepting that the US has bought into the propaganda.
The Democrats lost their way when Bill Clinton rode into town and brought Third Wayism to the Democratic party. Democrats were extremely successful with Sandersian rhetoric and policies before the Democratic party changed gears and went Republican-lite.
Yeah, while I may have only been a toddler in 1980, I think the Sandersian guy lost, and the Hart guy would lose later, and the Massachusetts Liberal after that.
In fact the most popular president of all time was extremely liberal and we had a constitutional amendment put into place to keep him from getting elected for a fourth time which he probably would have done if he hadn't died in office: Franklin Roosevelt.
You are reaching back in time there.

Clinton democrats, other than Clinton himself, have not been so successful.
Largely in part due to Republican obstructionism since 1994. The Republicans won the propaganda war.

It's time for the Democratic party to get back to its roots.
It'd be nice if the nation stopped drinking Flavoraid as well.
 
Hillary is a policy wonk. That should be a good thing. And I've heard people ask/say, "What was her message?" And it's not unreasonable to ask that because Trump's surreal behavior during the debates completely took the focus off what had always been the most impactful way for a candidate to get their message out. This time around though, Hillary would be talking, but the rest of the world was saying to each other, "Did you hear what that crazy motherfucker just said? Look! what's he doing now? Why's he walking around on the stage behind her?!?!?" Then it would be his turn to bloviate about some more crazy bullshit.

I don't like to admit it, but I the only thing I remember Hillary saying during any of the debates was when she called him a puppet. And the only reason I remember that was Trump's hilarious/stupid/frustrated 4 year-old's response: "No puppet, no puppet... you're the puppet!"

In retrospect, we needed a candidate with tremendous comedic wit, but John Stewart wasn't running.

As to going back to the left, I think that's the ticket. Universal healthcare and a promise to college students that they'll get some debt relief. Then go on the attack against Republicans. Attack works. People cry about negativity, but at the same time, they love it.

Quick dork note: FDR did win a 4th term as POTUS but died shortly taking the oath of office that fourth time.
 
I believe that's just buying into Republican and current Democratic establishment propaganda.
Naw, it is accepting that the US has bought into the propaganda.
The Democrats lost their way when Bill Clinton rode into town and brought Third Wayism to the Democratic party. Democrats were extremely successful with Sandersian rhetoric and policies before the Democratic party changed gears and went Republican-lite.
Yeah, while I may have only been a toddler in 1980, I think the Sandersian guy lost, and the Hart guy would lose later, and the Massachusetts Liberal after that.
In fact the most popular president of all time was extremely liberal and we had a constitutional amendment put into place to keep him from getting elected for a fourth time which he probably would have done if he hadn't died in office: Franklin Roosevelt.
You are reaching back in time there.

Clinton democrats, other than Clinton himself, have not been so successful.
Largely in part due to Republican obstructionism since 1994. The Republicans won the propaganda war.

It's time for the Democratic party to get back to its roots.
It'd be nice if the nation stopped drinking Flavoraid as well.
The republicans won the propaganda war because we stopped fighting it.
 
What Sanders wants is likely supported by 60 to 70% of our population. However, the Republicans have successfully fucked the minds of the moderates into thinking that they don't actually support such things. Sanders would have been vilified as a communist and would have lost and Will Wiley would have said, 'should have gone with Clinton'.

I believe that's just buying into Republican and current Democratic establishment propaganda. The Democrats lost their way when Bill Clinton rode into town and brought Third Wayism to the Democratic party. Democrats were extremely successful with Sandersian rhetoric and policies before the Democratic party changed gears and went Republican-lite. In fact the most popular president of all time was extremely liberal and we had a constitutional amendment put into place to keep him from getting elected for a fourth time which he probably would have done if he hadn't died in office: Franklin Roosevelt.

Roosevelt democrats were very successful.

Clinton democrats, other than Clinton himself, have not been so successful.

It's time for the Democratic party to get back to its roots.

I don't think that there is anyway that the Democrats can go back to their New Deal roots and to continue to court Wall Street for their money. Obama and Sanders raised large amounts of money in their primary campaigns from small donors. They shouldn't have needed to take money from Wall Street, as Obama did in his general election campaigns. Wall Street will throw money at the Democratic candidate if it looks like they will win, but Wall Street will always prefer that the Republican wins.

The Democrats would have to also abandon neoliberalism and austerity as an economic platform. The Republicans preach austerity when the Democrats are in power but they turn around and balloon the deficit when they are in power with what is really important to them, military spending, tax cuts for the rich and freedom from adult supervision for Wall Street that results in the financial crises from deregulation like the savings and loan one in the 1980's, the junk bonds in the 1990's, the 2000 internet bubble, Enron, and the near total meltdown in 2008.

But the Democrats and especially the liberals in the party don't seem to be interested in economics.
 
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