I have now met a real life creationist.

[DrZoidberg]

We live in peace, free of physical conflict because it is Jehovah's will for us and because we want to. I repeat: In all of the wars of the 20th century, not one drop of blood was spilled by one of JWs. Don't tell me it is not possible because we live it daily.

Ehe... it's only possible because you live in a society protecting you. If other people weren't willing to pick up arms and fight for your existence JW would have been wiped out a long time ago.

Not everybody can be a warrior. But saying that the reason is because it's beneath you is pretty rich. How about showing some gratitude for the people smart enough to reject JW ideals? After all, you are completely dependent on them. You're in no position to have this smug superior attitude.

BTW, I know that domestic violence is a huge problem within the JW community. Which I think speaks volumes about what it's really about. It's not about embracing God's words to the letter. I think it's just cowardice.

 

[wilson]

Here's a little known fact. About of a third of the Golden Horde were Christian. It's the most brutal and savage army the world has ever seen. They make the Nazi's look benevolent. The Mongol army helped spread Christianity all through Asia.

Here's another Christian army, also savage and brutal, the German Nazi army. Hitler was a devout Catholic. His book, Mein Kampf, is full of Biblical references.

If these other religions aren't the solution, Christianity sure as hell doesn't seem to be either. If a system of thought isn't helping, at what point should we declare it a failure? After 2000 years of failure? 4000 years? 10 000?

Idolatry

What's wrong with idolatry?

This:
“. . .Their idols are silver and gold, The work of human hands. *5 A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes, but they cannot see; *6 Ears they have, but they cannot hear; A nose, but they cannot smell; *7 Hands they have, but they cannot feel; Feet, but they cannot walk; They make no sound with their throat. *8 The people who make them will become just like them, As will all those who trust in them.” (Psalm 115:4-8)

And this:
“. . .There is one whose work is to cut down cedars. He selects a certain type of tree, an oak, And he lets it grow strong among the trees of the forest. He plants a laurel tree, and the rain makes it grow. 15 Then it becomes fuel for a man to make fires. He takes part of it to warm himself; He builds a fire and bakes bread. But he also makes a god and worships it. He makes it into a carved image, and he bows down before it. 16 Half of it he burns up in a fire; With that half he roasts the meat that he eats, and he is satisfied. He also warms himself and says: “Ah! I am warm as I watch the fire.” 17 But the rest of it he makes into a god, into his carved image. He bows down to it and worships it. He prays to it and says: “Save me, for you are my god.” 18 They know nothing, they understand nothing, Because their eyes are sealed shut and they cannot see, And their heart has no insight. 19 No one reflects in his heart Or has knowledge or understanding, saying: “Half of it I burned up in a fire, And on its coals I baked bread and roasted meat to eat. Should I, then, make the rest of it into a detestable thing? Should I worship a block of wood from a tree?” 20 He feeds on ashes. His own deluded heart has led him astray. He cannot save himself, nor does he say: “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”” (Isaiah 44:14-20)

 

[wilson]

We live in peace, free of physical conflict because it is Jehovah's will for us and because we want to. I repeat: In all of the wars of the 20th century, not one drop of blood was spilled by one of JWs. Don't tell me it is not possible because we live it daily.

Ehe... it's only possible because you live in a society protecting you. If other people weren't willing to pick up arms and fight for your existence JW would have been wiped out a long time ago.

Not everybody can be a warrior. But saying that the reason is because it's beneath you is pretty rich. How about showing some gratitude for the people smart enough to reject JW ideals? After all, you are completely dependent on them. You're in no position to have this smug superior attitude.

BTW, I know that domestic violence is a huge problem within the JW community. Which I think speaks volumes about what it's really about. It's not about embracing God's words to the letter. I think it's just cowardice.

Call it what you like, but you have not addressed the question:
".....tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding (physical) conflict could possibly fail."

 

[DrZoidberg]

What's wrong with idolatry?

This:
“. . .Their idols are silver and gold, The work of human hands. *5 A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes, but they cannot see; *6 Ears they have, but they cannot hear; A nose, but they cannot smell; *7 Hands they have, but they cannot feel; Feet, but they cannot walk; They make no sound with their throat. *8 The people who make them will become just like them, As will all those who trust in them.” (Psalm 115:4-8)

And this:
“. . .There is one whose work is to cut down cedars. He selects a certain type of tree, an oak, And he lets it grow strong among the trees of the forest. He plants a laurel tree, and the rain makes it grow. 15 Then it becomes fuel for a man to make fires. He takes part of it to warm himself; He builds a fire and bakes bread. But he also makes a god and worships it. He makes it into a carved image, and he bows down before it. 16 Half of it he burns up in a fire; With that half he roasts the meat that he eats, and he is satisfied. He also warms himself and says: “Ah! I am warm as I watch the fire.” 17 But the rest of it he makes into a god, into his carved image. He bows down to it and worships it. He prays to it and says: “Save me, for you are my god.” 18 They know nothing, they understand nothing, Because their eyes are sealed shut and they cannot see, And their heart has no insight. 19 No one reflects in his heart Or has knowledge or understanding, saying: “Half of it I burned up in a fire, And on its coals I baked bread and roasted meat to eat. Should I, then, make the rest of it into a detestable thing? Should I worship a block of wood from a tree?” 20 He feeds on ashes. His own deluded heart has led him astray. He cannot save himself, nor does he say: “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”” (Isaiah 44:14-20)

None of this explains why idolatry is bad. What if idolatry makes somebody happy? What's the harm? To me the rule against idolatry is one of the more bizarre Christian rules.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ehe... it's only possible because you live in a society protecting you. If other people weren't willing to pick up arms and fight for your existence JW would have been wiped out a long time ago.

Not everybody can be a warrior. But saying that the reason is because it's beneath you is pretty rich. How about showing some gratitude for the people smart enough to reject JW ideals? After all, you are completely dependent on them. You're in no position to have this smug superior attitude.

BTW, I know that domestic violence is a huge problem within the JW community. Which I think speaks volumes about what it's really about. It's not about embracing God's words to the letter. I think it's just cowardice.

Call it what you like, but you have not addressed the question:
".....tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding (physical) conflict could possibly fail."

It's been answered over and over. Because there are people out there who are completely fine with physical violence. If good people aren't willing to fight to defend themselves and their ideals we will live in an evil and wicked world. Evil is dependent on people like you to win.

 

[wilson]

This:
“. . .Their idols are silver and gold, The work of human hands. *5 A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes, but they cannot see; *6 Ears they have, but they cannot hear; A nose, but they cannot smell; *7 Hands they have, but they cannot feel; Feet, but they cannot walk; They make no sound with their throat. *8 The people who make them will become just like them, As will all those who trust in them.” (Psalm 115:4-8)

And this:
“. . .There is one whose work is to cut down cedars. He selects a certain type of tree, an oak, And he lets it grow strong among the trees of the forest. He plants a laurel tree, and the rain makes it grow. 15 Then it becomes fuel for a man to make fires. He takes part of it to warm himself; He builds a fire and bakes bread. But he also makes a god and worships it. He makes it into a carved image, and he bows down before it. 16 Half of it he burns up in a fire; With that half he roasts the meat that he eats, and he is satisfied. He also warms himself and says: “Ah! I am warm as I watch the fire.” 17 But the rest of it he makes into a god, into his carved image. He bows down to it and worships it. He prays to it and says: “Save me, for you are my god.” 18 They know nothing, they understand nothing, Because their eyes are sealed shut and they cannot see, And their heart has no insight. 19 No one reflects in his heart Or has knowledge or understanding, saying: “Half of it I burned up in a fire, And on its coals I baked bread and roasted meat to eat. Should I, then, make the rest of it into a detestable thing? Should I worship a block of wood from a tree?” 20 He feeds on ashes. His own deluded heart has led him astray. He cannot save himself, nor does he say: “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”” (Isaiah 44:14-20)

None of this explains why idolatry is bad. What if idolatry makes somebody happy? What's the harm? To me the rule against idolatry is one of the more bizarre Christian rules.

Christian?
Get your time-line straight.

 

[DrZoidberg]

None of this explains why idolatry is bad. What if idolatry makes somebody happy? What's the harm? To me the rule against idolatry is one of the more bizarre Christian rules.

Christian?
Get your time-line straight.

Still not an answer. Why is idolatry bad?

 

[wilson]

Call it what you like, but you have not addressed the question:
".....tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding (physical) conflict could possibly fail."

It's been answered over and over.

Where? When? By whom?

Because there are people out there who are completely fine with physical violence. If good people aren't willing to fight to defend themselves and their ideals we will live in an evil and wicked world. Evil is dependent on people like you to win.

"Good people" do not fight and kill people they do not even know. No one can "fight for peace." They fight because they are afraid of the people who think exactly the way they do. Because we have no political enemies, we see no need to "defend" ourselves from anyone. I already told you:
“. . .Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.” (Romans 12:17-21)
You are far from even understanding the problem. Being "willing to fight" is not loving your neighbor. If you are even WILLING to kill them you do not love them.
You have not yet shown how loving your neighbor and avoiding physical conflict could possibly fail.

 

[wilson]

Christian?
Get your time-line straight.

Still not an answer. Why is idolatry bad?

You have not answered me yet.
Why is the injunction against idolatry not a "Christian rule?"

 

[DrZoidberg]

Because we have no political enemies, we see no need to "defend" ourselves from anyone.

In your head perhaps. JW was just outlawed in Russia. It was also illegal in USSR. I googled it just to make sure. The list of countries JW's have been persecuted is rather long.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses

Being persecuted is another word for having political enemies. Being an enemy doesn't have to be reciprocal. Somebody can be your political enemy without person being your enemy. Which has happened to JW on many occasions. Are you going to continue to maintain that JW doesn't have political enemies?

JW also has lots of enemies among the general population. JW has hurt a lot of people. There are other ways to abuse people than by physical violence. Psychological abuse is also a form of violence. Of which JW's undoubtedly are guilty of. Are you also going to claim that JW's are innocent of that?

“. . .Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.” (Romans 12:17-21)
You are far from even understanding the problem. Being "willing to fight" is not loving your neighbor. If you are even WILLING to kill them you do not love them.
You have not yet shown how loving your neighbor and avoiding physical conflict could possibly fail.

Just repeating the same thing over and over after people have found holes in your argument isn't particularly constructive.

I don't think you are very good at arguing your case.

- - - Updated - - -

Still not an answer. Why is idolatry bad?

You have not answered me yet.
Why is the injunction against idolatry not a "Christian rule?"

It's in the Christian commandments. It doesn't matter if it's also a rule shared by other religions. You are a Christian. So I'm focused on Christianity.

I'll repeat the question. Why is idolatry bad?

 

[bilby]

The golden rule and such are part and parcel of many religions and ethical systems that long predate Christianity. Buddhism, Taosim, Confusionism Stoacism, and from people like Democritas and Socrates.

That is not at all true. The history of these religions prove it. They have ALL engaged in bloody warfare.
The Golden Rule has never been practiced by them, despite their claims.

Somehow, the Christians seem to forget all of that and tell us Christianity is somehow something special when it is but one of many lines of thought about ethics.

You're just not getting it Charlie. Your words make it obvious that these principles have NOT been applied.
Idolatry, sexual immorality, violence, social unrest, political trickery, false religion, homosexuality, adultery, magic, crime, abortions, hatred, strife, envy,
tax evasion, deviousness, hypocrisy, etc, etc, are all carefully excluded from biblical Christianity. Show me one word in the Christian Scriptures that approve of any of these things.
The Christian Scriptures DEMAND moral, spiritual and physical purity (not perfection) of all those who WANT to live by them.
You can give me a litany of evil deeds committed by people making all kinds of claims.
But Jesus said:
“. . .By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.” (Matthew 7:16-20)

Have these people loved their neighbor and avoided conflict?

Now - tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding conflict could possibly fail.

It can fail (indeed, it can't NOT fail) because people are incapable of doing it.

You can't avoid conflict.

That, too, is false.
Show me one time when genuine love of neighbor has failed.

And I don't mean 'we'; YOU are here, right now, in conflict with other posters in this thread. In principle you could have not posted here, and avoided the conflict - but you didn't, in practice, do so. And the reason that you didn't is that you think (like pretty much everyone ever) that you have something important to tell people about how they are living their lives incorrectly.

You think that your way of doing things is better; AND YOU CAN'T HELP BUT TELL US SO. Which causes conflict.

You (or rather, the religion to which you subscribe) is demanding something that APPEARS reasonable, but is in fact IMPOSSIBLE for humans to achieve. They don't even achieve it themselves (although they have LOTS of excuses and rationalizations ready for anyone who has the cheek to point that out).

That is false! They do not demand that anyone inside or outside of their belief circle do anything they do not want to do. We live in peace, free of physical conflict because it is Jehovah's will for us and because we want to. I repeat: In all of the wars of the 20th century, not one drop of blood was spilled by one of JWs. Don't tell me it is not possible because we live it daily.

Never mind 'they'. I'm talking about YOU - singular.

And your very response here is an example of you doing the thing you vehemently deny doing.

Demanding things that sound easy, but are in fact impossible, is a great way to put people under your control. 'See? You can't even do this simple thing. Best you let us tell you how to live, as you are clearly incapable of getting it right by yourself'. But that misses the vital point - nobody gets it right by themselves. Or even with the assistance of others - including any of the thousands of imaginary friends humans have invented to do the job. Humans fuck things up. It's OK. We all do it. You might as well be ashamed of shitting as be ashamed of sinning. It's just inevitable as a part of life (oh, and many religions teach people to be ashamed of shitting too. Shame over the unavoidable is part of the control system. Shitting, pissing, being naked, feeling sexual attraction, farting, pride, falling into conflict, disliking a neighbour, etc., etc.; All of these are used to control people by organizations, cults, churches, and individuals; and all of them are completely unavoidable).

You fail to live up to an impossible standard; But that doesn't make you worthless, nor does it make anyone else (or any book written by anyone else; or any invisible entity claimed by anyone else) a suitable authority over you. No matter how much of a fuck up you might make of your life, you cannot reasonably expect someone else to do a better job of it - nobody else can live your life for you.

Remember this?:
"The history of these religions prove it. They have ALL engaged in bloody warfare. The Golden Rule has never been practiced by them, despite their claims."
Sir, you should be able to understand that, by my talking about participation in warfare, I am talking about physical conflict. Unless you are telling me that loving your neighbor and avoiding warfare is wrong, that can, and has been, done by millions of peaceful humans who truly love their fellow man.
I am not asking you to do anything you don't want to do. Like the song says:
"I can't make you love me if you don't. You can't make your heart feel something it won't."
I know this for sure:
“Love never fails. . . .” (1 Corinthians 13:8)
"Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.” (Matthew 7:16-20)

Now - tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding (physical) conflict could possibly fail.

Hey, a (physical) just dropped off that goalpost while you were moving it.

 

[funinspace]

It's been answered over and over.

Where? When? By whom?

By many of us. That you don't like the answer is irrelevant.

Because there are people out there who are completely fine with physical violence. If good people aren't willing to fight to defend themselves and their ideals we will live in an evil and wicked world. Evil is dependent on people like you to win.

"Good people" do not fight and kill people they do not even know. No one can "fight for peace." They fight because they are afraid of the people who think exactly the way they do. Because we have no political enemies, we see no need to "defend" ourselves from anyone. I already told you:
“. . .Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.” (Romans 12:17-21)
You are far from even understanding the problem. Being "willing to fight" is not loving your neighbor. If you are even WILLING to kill them you do not love them.
You have not yet shown how loving your neighbor and avoiding physical conflict could possibly fail.

I’d say this notion that the purported Christian God requires pacifism regarding government conflicts with other countries is poorly supported. On a personal scale, sure it is nice guidance on how to live. But what human would not violently intervene if someone was trying to rape their child? I respect much of the Mennonite theological views as I think they get about as close as one can get to making sense of the jumbled mess one calls the Bible, but absolute national pacifism is bonkers. At same time the evangelical idolatry of the military and luv of warfare is pathetic.

One of the problems so many literalists run into is figuring out when Jesus is being hyperbolic or metaphorical. Pretty much 100% of them figure out not to gouge out their eye or cut off a hand; thank Zeus! They quickly go metaphorical when it is said that Satan took Jesus to a mountain top to see the nations of the world (on a spheroid, really?). Then at other times that go anal and put on the hat of density. Jesus sent a couple Roman soldiers off telling them to be nice people, but said nothing about their military occupation. The NT is quite clear about obeying one’s government. In fact, it does so to the point of ignoring what happens when one is stuck in a psycho regime. The NT also never realized that one day Christian majorities would actually have the power to run nations. As Dr. Z has noted, it would be disastrous for whole nations to go full pacifist. Imagine a large country disbanding all police and military forces with people like Hitler, Stalin, and others around. Even small countries that have only disbanded their military, like Costa Rica, can do so due to being benefactors of large neighboring countries ensuring a level of international stability.

No directive to run from the Roman army:
Luke 3:14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

Here Jesus implies that it is right for kingdoms of this world to fight when the cause is just and circumstances require it.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom [k]is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not [l]of this realm.”

Lots of verses about the power of government and the Christian requirement to obey that government:
Romans 13:3-4 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for [d]good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

NOTE: For clarity, all references to what Jesus said, should be recognized as the purported sayings of this figure of Christian legend

 

[wilson]

In your head perhaps. JW was just outlawed in Russia. It was also illegal in USSR. I googled it just to make sure. The list of countries JW's have been persecuted is rather long.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses

That is exactly what we expect. Our Leader said:
“ And YOU will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name; but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.” (Matthew 10:22)
“. . .Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you;. . .” (John 15:20)
From our study of the bible, before we became JWs, we knew that would happen, but we signed up anyway. If that did not happen, we would be wondering what we were doing wrong and why the persecution did not come. Jesus allows it because it results in what the persecutors do not want nor expect.
When Jesus was murdered, the tiny movement he started with just 12 men has resulted in a worldwide peaceful entity.
You must understand something - we are not afraid of, not try to avoid, this kind of publicity, because we know that it serves to awaken the curiosity of many honest persons. IT PROMOTES GROWTH, to the consternation of many opposers.
From Sweden:
"Over the years, representatives of different churches have published many books and brochures for the purpose of “exposing” Jehovah’s Witnesses as heretics. These publications have been examined by a researcher, who summarizes his impressions as follows:
“As a researcher in religion, I have over the years more and more found evidence to support my views that those who are quickest in calling another a ‘heretic’ or ‘false prophet’ are themselves most deserving of such a remark. I feel that it is time to blacklist this type of books which, with a Christian cover, gives a false picture of, for example, Jehovah’s Witnesses.” (Religion och Kultur, No.*4, 1976)

“While visiting the Vatican recently, Archbishop Kirill of Smolensk [one of Russia’s oldest cities] .*.*. asked the pope for ecumenical aid in coping with the overwhelming growth of Jehovah’s Witnesses and similar groups in the Soviet Union.” (Il Sabato)
"In the first century, leaders of established religion had similar complaints when Christianity was spread aggressively by its adherents. On one occasion indignant Jews complained to the city rulers:
“These men that have overturned the inhabited earth are present here also”! (Acts 17:6)
Back then, religious leaders tried hard to stop the spread of Christianity, but they failed. Today also, any effort to stop the spread of true Christian doctrine is doomed to failure. God himself promises:
“Any weapon whatever that will be formed against you will have no success, and any tongue at all that will rise up against you in the judgment you will condemn. This is the hereditary possession of the servants of Jehovah, and their righteousness is from me.”Isa. 54:17.(WT92 8/15 p. 32)
THEY WILL FAIL AGAIN!
Russia has tried that before. Remember Stalin?
From Argentina:
“This quite incredible regression into the past is taking place with hardly a word of protest coming from the press or from any other of the country’s representative institutions. None of the political parties, so gleefully willing to denounce the government’s economic policies, has bothered to raise its voice in defense of this small and unloved sect. The Church, despite the Pope’s unequivocal calls for religious tolerance, has remained silent, even though many will take it for granted that the driving force behind the persecution of the Witnesses is conservative Roman Catholicism and the main members of the government like to identify themselves as fervent practicing Catholics. The Church as such, however, appears to have nothing at all to do with this sorry affair. The Witnesses, of course, are not very numerous, not very rich, and not very influential, so there is precious little to be gained from trying to help them. But the wrong that is being inflicted is so evident, and the harm it is doing to the country is so great, that it would have been reasonable to expect some citizens at least to have the decency to speak up on their behalf.

“The government’s objective in treating the Witnesses in this shameful manner is hard for a rational mind to grasp. It cannot seriously expect to convert them. So far not one single Witness has renounced his beliefs as a result of the government’s heavy-handed campaign and, indeed, they are accustomed to outfacing far tougher and far more unpleasant enemies than the present authorities. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, a stiff-necked people if ever there was one, have survived the attentions of the likes of Hitler and Stalin and they will no doubt survive whatever President Videla has in store for them.
Elsewhere they have gone to their deaths singing the praises of the Lord and they will be quite prepared to do the same here should it ever become necessary.
“If the government has no hope of converting them, what then? Perhaps it is seeking to discourage others from joining their ranks. If so it is going the wrong way about it, because the steadfast way in which the Witnesses have stood by their principles, a rare phenomenon these days, can only win them new adherents. It would not be at all surprising if their numbers actually grew as a result of the government’s efforts rather than the reverse......"(James Neilson, Buenos Aires Herald 2 14, 1980)

Being persecuted is another word for having political enemies.

You are wrong in your opinion. You cannot show me that in any dictionary. Check the definition of "political."

Being an enemy doesn't have to be reciprocal.

That's exactly what I said.
DEFINITION:
Definition of enemy

1:* one that is antagonistic to another; especially :* one seeking to injure, overthrow, or confound an opponent
2:* something harmful or deadly (alcohol was his greatest enemy)
3a :* a military adversary
b :* a hostile unit or force

#1 describes you - doesn't it?

Somebody can be your political enemy without person being your enemy. Which has happened to JW on many occasions. Are you going to continue to maintain that JW doesn't have political enemies?

Yes! You don't seem to know what a political enemy is.

JW also has lots of enemies among the general population. JW has hurt a lot of people. There are other ways to abuse people than by physical violence. Psychological abuse is also a form of violence. Of which JW's undoubtedly are guilty of. Are you also going to claim that JW's are innocent of that?

Yes.

“. . .Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.” (Romans 12:17-21)
You are far from even understanding the problem. Being "willing to fight" is not loving your neighbor. If you are even WILLING to kill them you do not love them.
You have not yet shown how loving your neighbor and avoiding physical conflict could possibly fail.

Just repeating the same thing over and over after people have found holes in your argument isn't particularly constructive.

Criticisms are not holes of any sort.

I don't think you are very good at arguing your case.

Then why are you unable to handle it?

Still not an answer. Why is idolatry bad?

You have not answered me yet.
Why is the injunction against idolatry not a "Christian rule?"

It's in the Christian commandments. It doesn't matter if it's also a rule shared by other religions. You are a Christian. So I'm focused on Christianity.

Pre-Christian laws are not "Christian rules."

I'll repeat the question. Why is idolatry bad?

1. It is against the creator and that is bad for believers.
2. It is stupid.
Praying to wood, stones and trees is stupid.
You ask the question, but why are you unable to see that?
Is stupidity good?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

From our study of the bible, before we became JWs, we knew that would happen, but we signed up anyway. If that did not happen, we would be wondering what we were doing wrong and why the persecution did not come. Jesus allows it because it results in what the persecutors do not want nor expect.

Well, it's lucky that you're so persecuted then. I mean, not "persecuted" in the sense that anybody ever does anything to you, but your ability to maintain your faith in the face of the odd snitty put down is an inspiration to all of us.

 

[funinspace]

That is exactly what we expect. Our Leader said:
“ And YOU will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name; but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.” (Matthew 10:22)
“. . .Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you;. . .” (John 15:20)
From our study of the bible, before we became JWs, we knew that would happen, but we signed up anyway. If that did not happen, we would be wondering what we were doing wrong and why the persecution did not come. Jesus allows it because it results in what the persecutors do not want nor expect.
When Jesus was murdered, the tiny movement he started with just 12 men has resulted in a worldwide peaceful entity.
You must understand something - we are not afraid of, not try to avoid, this kind of publicity, because we know that it serves to awaken the curiosity of many honest persons. IT PROMOTES GROWTH, to the consternation of many opposers.
<antidotes>

Yeah, growth promotion…. Almost 1900 hundred years of nothing, and then you are excited that you have grown a hair faster than the LDS over the last few decades.

From 1971 to 2016
LDS: 4.11 fold growth
JW: 4.45 fold growth

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormons
https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php

Though the JWs only started 40 years after Joseph Smith began his sect in the 1830’s, yours is still only half as large.

Being persecuted is another word for having political enemies.

You are wrong in your opinion. You cannot show me that in any dictionary. Check the definition of "political."

Being an enemy doesn't have to be reciprocal.

That's exactly what I said.
DEFINITION:
Definition of enemy

1:* one that is antagonistic to another; especially :* one seeking to injure, overthrow, or confound an opponent
2:* something harmful or deadly (alcohol was his greatest enemy)
3a :* a military adversary
b :* a hostile unit or force

#1 describes you - doesn't it?

Now you have discovered the dictionary, what a riot. Maybe you should check out the dictionary for the meaning of a few other words like: circle; arrangement; theology; philosophy; creationism; and probably a few wilson custom word definitions I have forgotten...

 

[atrib]

I'll repeat the question. Why is idolatry bad?

1. It is against the creator and that is bad for believers.
2. It is stupid.
Praying to wood, stones and trees is stupid.
You ask the question, but why are you unable to see that?
Is stupidity good?

Praying to an imaginary supernatural creature (Biblegod) that allegedly created the universe and has never bothered to show up in person or demonstrate its existence in any meaningful way is just as stupid as praying to idols. So why do you pray to this imaginary creature when you know it is stupid?

 

[wilson]

From our study of the bible, before we became JWs, we knew that would happen, but we signed up anyway. If that did not happen, we would be wondering what we were doing wrong and why the persecution did not come. Jesus allows it because it results in what the persecutors do not want nor expect.

Well, it's lucky that you're so persecuted then. I mean, not "persecuted" in the sense that anybody ever does anything to you, but your ability to maintain your faith in the face of the odd snitty put down is an inspiration to all of us.

Thanks, Tom.
Say, Tom - look at this:

No directive to run from the Roman army:
Luke 3:14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

See that?
Was this guy correct in attributing Luke 3:14 to Jesus? Read the next two verses and then tell me.

And what about this?:

Here Jesus implies that it is right for kingdoms of this world to fight when the cause is just and circumstances require it.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom [k]is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not [l]of this realm.”

Do you really think that Jesus was implying that it is right to fight for any reason at all?

Help your friend out, please.

 

[wilson]

1. It is against the creator and that is bad for believers.
2. It is stupid.
Praying to wood, stones and trees is stupid.
You ask the question, but why are you unable to see that?
Is stupidity good?

Praying to an imaginary supernatural creature (Biblegod) that allegedly created the universe and has never bothered to show up in person or demonstrate its existence in any meaningful way is just as stupid as praying to idols. So why do you pray to this imaginary creature when you know it is stupid?

I know he is not imaginary. How? We have communication with him daily.
Would you like to know what he is like?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Do you really think that Jesus was implying that it is right to fight for any reason at all?

Help your friend out, please.

Do not think that he came to bring peace to the world. He came not to bring peace, but a sword.

Also, you might want to ask those moneylenders whom he drove out of the temple with a whip made of cord whether or not he ever thought there was a reason for fighting.

 

[funinspace]

Say, Tom - look at this:

No directive to run from the Roman army:
Luke 3:14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

See that?
Was this guy correct in attributing Luke 3:14 to Jesus? Read the next two verses and then tell me.

And what about this?:

Here Jesus implies that it is right for kingdoms of this world to fight when the cause is just and circumstances require it.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom [k]is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not [l]of this realm.”

Do you really think that Jesus was implying that it is right to fight for any reason at all?

Help your friend out, please.

Jeesh, yes I didn't correctly attribute Luke 3:14 to John the Baptist. So you don't like what JtB has to say? This purported Jesus also interacted with a Roman centurion (Matt 8) healing his servant, and just like JtB, says nothing negative towards this man's advanced career in the Roman military. I also didn't posit that the purported Jesus was saying it was right to fight for any reason. Your cherry picked verse or two still doesn't get you to theological based pacifism.