Religious arguments and analogies that really bother you

[PyramidHead]

The argument that we should obey someone because they are very powerful is my least favorite manifestation of religious morality. See it on display here:

Biblical theists say objective morality entails the existence of a maximally great Higher Being who is both law-giver and law enforcer.

In the next breath, they'll turn around and say, "Without objective morality, it's just might-makes-right!" Yet, the only possible foundation for their brand of objective morality is might-makes-right.

I'm also not a fan of the Golden Rule, to be honest. It's flawed. It makes you assume that other people want the same things as you, when everybody's sense of satisfaction is unique.

Something I've been doing lately is to really notice the word "Lord" and what it means whenever Christians use it. He is your Lord. It's not a relationship based on mutual respect. Lords have no reason to respect their subjects.

 

[Lion IRC]

Enforceability is a key element of what makes God's moral law objectively true.

Laws which aren't enforced hardly qualify to be called 'laws' at all - let alone objective.

 

[Juma]

Enforceability is a key element of what makes God's moral law objectively true.

Laws which aren't enforced hardly qualify to be called 'laws' at all - let alone objective.

Since there is no abrahamitic god these laws cannot be enforced and thus has no validity...

 

[Keith&Co.]

Enforceability is a key element of what makes God's moral law objectively true.

Laws which aren't enforced hardly qualify to be called 'laws' at all - let alone objective.

Since there is no abrahamitic god these laws cannot be enforced and thus has no validity...

Or the alleged enforcement takes place in the alleged afterlife.
Lucky for us, the very same people that tell us what God's laws actually ARE are quite happy to insist to us that the villains and heroes are getting their just rewards! Really! Trust me, i SWEAR this to be true

 

[Lion IRC]

The idea of free will is always one I have had major problems with.

That's paradoxical.
I would have thought that it takes autonomous free will to reflect upon whether or not we have the free will to reflect upon our own free will. But maybe I'm pre-programmed to think that by my Creator who freely decided to create me as a robot.

...The general attitude of Christians seems to be that you must blindly obey God's edits and dogma, and you can't question him in any way.

I don't think that. If one Christian thinks "x" and another thinks "y" does that suggest not all Christians have free will?

... If [you don't] then you get to go to hell and burn for all eternity.

That does not seem to be free will to me.

Doesn't the creator/owner of this forum have the right to say ...obey the rules or get banned?
The consequences of ones actions don't undermine the freedom we have to make good or bad decisions.

...Also, I really have a lot of hostility towards the ideas of simply unbelieving is no different than commtting horrible crimes against ten year old children.

Except that's not a biblical idea.

The bible says - in several places - that we are judged proportionately to our deeds and the motives for those deeds. (See Proverbs 16:2 for example.) The good and the bad deeds "weighed" in the balance like on a set of scales. (See Revelation 2:23)

...I have an exceptionally hard time fathoming that mentality.

Fathom this.

A missionary travels to a remote village and tells everyone about Jesus. He tells them, “If you do not accept Jesus, you will burn in hell for all eternity.” Before the missionary leaves, the tribal elder asks, “If we had never heard about this Jesus, would God have sent us all to hell?” The missionary replies, “No, I don’t suppose God would condemn you due to your ignorance,” to which the elder replied “Then why did you tell us about him!?”

 

[PyramidHead]

Enforceability is a key element of what makes God's moral law objectively true.

Laws which aren't enforced hardly qualify to be called 'laws' at all - let alone objective.

What you're saying is that you believe something to be true about reality because someone with a great deal of power can harm you if you don't. That's not how truth works. Things don't become true by force, they are true regardless of the consequences of thinking otherwise. Nobody needs to 'enforce' the fact that I named my dog Pat, it's just a fact about the world.

 

[bilby]

The idea of free will is always one I have had major problems with.

The general attitude of Christians seems to be that you must blindly obey God's edits and dogma, and you can't question him in any way. If ypu dp, then you get to go to hell and burn for all eternity.

That does not seem to be free will to me.

Well according to Christians, we have the same kind of free will that Russians had under Stalin. Stalin isn't there all the time, telling you what to do - you are expected to work out for yourself, based on the teachings of Lenin and Marx, what Stalin wants, and you are completely free to interpret Marxist-Leninism in any way you like. But if you get it wrong (as decided by Stalin), then you go to the gulag. Which is entirely your own fault for abusing your freedom to do things that were not in accordance with the whim of the supreme ruler. So you only have yourself to blame.

 

[Sarpedon]

That's paradoxical.
I would have thought that it takes autonomous free will to reflect upon whether or not we have the free will to reflect upon our own free will. But maybe I'm pre-programmed to think that by my Creator who freely decided to create me as a robot.

There can be will, without it being free. We are all influenced by our environment and upbringing, in ways we cannot control. We all know this already. In this way, our freedom is already restricted. Yet every day we act and make decisions, regardless of our minds not being truly free. As usual, your word games dissolve when looked at from the perspective of the real world.

I don't think that. If one Christian thinks "x" and another thinks "y" does that suggest not all Christians have free will?

No, it means that the scriptures are unclear, and the church has been divided by greedy and ambitious priests. Again, obvious if you look at the real world, instead of playing word games.

 

[funinspace]

That's paradoxical.
I would have thought that it takes autonomous free will to reflect upon whether or not we have the free will to reflect upon our own free will. But maybe I'm pre-programmed to think that by my Creator who freely decided to create me as a robot.

That sounds like it should be fed into a finite improbability generator

 

[DrZoidberg]

Enforceability is a key element of what makes God's moral law objectively true.

Laws which aren't enforced hardly qualify to be called 'laws' at all - let alone objective.

Since there is no abrahamitic god these laws cannot be enforced and thus has no validity...

Secular law is enforcable. God doesn't exist, so God's laws aren't enforceable. What side are you arguing?

 

[Rayschism]

That's paradoxical.
I would have thought that it takes autonomous free will to reflect upon whether or not we have the free will to reflect upon our own free will. But maybe I'm pre-programmed to think that by my Creator who freely decided to create me as a robot.

...The general attitude of Christians seems to be that you must blindly obey God's edits and dogma, and you can't question him in any way.

I don't think that. If one Christian thinks "x" and another thinks "y" does that suggest not all Christians have free will?

... If [you don't] then you get to go to hell and burn for all eternity.

That does not seem to be free will to me.

Doesn't the creator/owner of this forum have the right to say ...obey the rules or get banned?
The consequences of ones actions don't undermine the freedom we have to make good or bad decisions.

...Also, I really have a lot of hostility towards the ideas of simply unbelieving is no different than commtting horrible crimes against ten year old children.

Except that's not a biblical idea.

The bible says - in several places - that we are judged proportionately to our deeds and the motives for those deeds. (See Proverbs 16:2 for example.) The good and the bad deeds "weighed" in the balance like on a set of scales. (See Revelation 2:23)

...I have an exceptionally hard time fathoming that mentality.

Fathom this.

A missionary travels to a remote village and tells everyone about Jesus. He tells them, “If you do not accept Jesus, you will burn in hell for all eternity.” Before the missionary leaves, the tribal elder asks, “If we had never heard about this Jesus, would God have sent us all to hell?” The missionary replies, “No, I don’t suppose God would condemn you due to your ignorance,” to which the elder replied “Then why did you tell us about him!?”

No, it very much is the defacto Christian idea. There are more than a few verse in the Bible that condemn unbelief. Those that do not believe are condemned already.

And actually, you are just using sophistry. The idea of consequences is to correct what some people claim are harmful and unwanted behaviors. Making people feel uncomfortable is the only to correct unwanted or harmful behavior. The absolutely only way. And even then that sometimes doesn't always work.

 

[funinspace]

That's paradoxical.
I would have thought that it takes autonomous free will to reflect upon whether or not we have the free will to reflect upon our own free will. But maybe I'm pre-programmed to think that by my Creator who freely decided to create me as a robot.



I don't think that. If one Christian thinks "x" and another thinks "y" does that suggest not all Christians have free will?

... If [you don't] then you get to go to hell and burn for all eternity.

That does not seem to be free will to me.

Doesn't the creator/owner of this forum have the right to say ...obey the rules or get banned?
The consequences of ones actions don't undermine the freedom we have to make good or bad decisions.

...Also, I really have a lot of hostility towards the ideas of simply unbelieving is no different than commtting horrible crimes against ten year old children.

Except that's not a biblical idea.

The bible says - in several places - that we are judged proportionately to our deeds and the motives for those deeds. (See Proverbs 16:2 for example.) The good and the bad deeds "weighed" in the balance like on a set of scales. (See Revelation 2:23)

...I have an exceptionally hard time fathoming that mentality.

Fathom this.

A missionary travels to a remote village and tells everyone about Jesus. He tells them, “If you do not accept Jesus, you will burn in hell for all eternity.” Before the missionary leaves, the tribal elder asks, “If we had never heard about this Jesus, would God have sent us all to hell?” The missionary replies, “No, I don’t suppose God would condemn you due to your ignorance,” to which the elder replied “Then why did you tell us about him!?”

No, it very much is the defacto Christian idea. There are more than a few verse in the Bible that condemn unbelief. Those that do not believe are condemned already.

What, are you God, like The God? There are almost no "de facto Christian" ideas. You seem to confuse/conflate your personal interpretation of scripture, for the totality of all self described Christian thought.

 

[Rayschism]

That's paradoxical.
I would have thought that it takes autonomous free will to reflect upon whether or not we have the free will to reflect upon our own free will. But maybe I'm pre-programmed to think that by my Creator who freely decided to create me as a robot.



I don't think that. If one Christian thinks "x" and another thinks "y" does that suggest not all Christians have free will?

... If [you don't] then you get to go to hell and burn for all eternity.

That does not seem to be free will to me.

Doesn't the creator/owner of this forum have the right to say ...obey the rules or get banned?
The consequences of ones actions don't undermine the freedom we have to make good or bad decisions.

...Also, I really have a lot of hostility towards the ideas of simply unbelieving is no different than commtting horrible crimes against ten year old children.

Except that's not a biblical idea.

The bible says - in several places - that we are judged proportionately to our deeds and the motives for those deeds. (See Proverbs 16:2 for example.) The good and the bad deeds "weighed" in the balance like on a set of scales. (See Revelation 2:23)

...I have an exceptionally hard time fathoming that mentality.

Fathom this.

A missionary travels to a remote village and tells everyone about Jesus. He tells them, “If you do not accept Jesus, you will burn in hell for all eternity.” Before the missionary leaves, the tribal elder asks, “If we had never heard about this Jesus, would God have sent us all to hell?” The missionary replies, “No, I don’t suppose God would condemn you due to your ignorance,” to which the elder replied “Then why did you tell us about him!?”

No, it very much is the defacto Christian idea. There are more than a few verse in the Bible that condemn unbelief. Those that do not believe are condemned already.

What, are you God, like The God? There are almost no "de facto Christian" ideas. You seem to confuse/conflate your personal interpretation of scripture, for the totality of all self described Christian thought.

Then you really don't know anything about Christianity and are just revealing your own biases as what you think are facts. You also do not seem to understand the irony of your own assertion.

Chiao bella.

 

[funinspace]

That's paradoxical.
I would have thought that it takes autonomous free will to reflect upon whether or not we have the free will to reflect upon our own free will. But maybe I'm pre-programmed to think that by my Creator who freely decided to create me as a robot.



I don't think that. If one Christian thinks "x" and another thinks "y" does that suggest not all Christians have free will?

... If [you don't] then you get to go to hell and burn for all eternity.

That does not seem to be free will to me.

Doesn't the creator/owner of this forum have the right to say ...obey the rules or get banned?
The consequences of ones actions don't undermine the freedom we have to make good or bad decisions.

...Also, I really have a lot of hostility towards the ideas of simply unbelieving is no different than commtting horrible crimes against ten year old children.

Except that's not a biblical idea.

The bible says - in several places - that we are judged proportionately to our deeds and the motives for those deeds. (See Proverbs 16:2 for example.) The good and the bad deeds "weighed" in the balance like on a set of scales. (See Revelation 2:23)

...I have an exceptionally hard time fathoming that mentality.

Fathom this.

A missionary travels to a remote village and tells everyone about Jesus. He tells them, “If you do not accept Jesus, you will burn in hell for all eternity.” Before the missionary leaves, the tribal elder asks, “If we had never heard about this Jesus, would God have sent us all to hell?” The missionary replies, “No, I don’t suppose God would condemn you due to your ignorance,” to which the elder replied “Then why did you tell us about him!?”

No, it very much is the defacto Christian idea. There are more than a few verse in the Bible that condemn unbelief. Those that do not believe are condemned already.

What, are you God, like The God? There are almost no "de facto Christian" ideas. You seem to confuse/conflate your personal interpretation of scripture, for the totality of all self described Christian thought.

Then you really don't know anything about Christianity and are just revealing your own biases as what you think are facts.

LOL...Et Tu, Brute

 

[Malintent]

That's paradoxical.
I would have thought that it takes autonomous free will to reflect upon whether or not we have the free will to reflect upon our own free will. But maybe I'm pre-programmed to think that by my Creator who freely decided to create me as a robot.



I don't think that. If one Christian thinks "x" and another thinks "y" does that suggest not all Christians have free will?

... If [you don't] then you get to go to hell and burn for all eternity.

That does not seem to be free will to me.

Doesn't the creator/owner of this forum have the right to say ...obey the rules or get banned?
The consequences of ones actions don't undermine the freedom we have to make good or bad decisions.

...Also, I really have a lot of hostility towards the ideas of simply unbelieving is no different than commtting horrible crimes against ten year old children.

Except that's not a biblical idea.

The bible says - in several places - that we are judged proportionately to our deeds and the motives for those deeds. (See Proverbs 16:2 for example.) The good and the bad deeds "weighed" in the balance like on a set of scales. (See Revelation 2:23)

...I have an exceptionally hard time fathoming that mentality.

Fathom this.

A missionary travels to a remote village and tells everyone about Jesus. He tells them, “If you do not accept Jesus, you will burn in hell for all eternity.” Before the missionary leaves, the tribal elder asks, “If we had never heard about this Jesus, would God have sent us all to hell?” The missionary replies, “No, I don’t suppose God would condemn you due to your ignorance,” to which the elder replied “Then why did you tell us about him!?”

No, it very much is the defacto Christian idea. There are more than a few verse in the Bible that condemn unbelief. Those that do not believe are condemned already.

What, are you God, like The God? There are almost no "de facto Christian" ideas. You seem to confuse/conflate your personal interpretation of scripture, for the totality of all self described Christian thought.

Then you really don't know anything about Christianity and are just revealing your own biases as what you think are facts. You also do not seem to understand the irony of your own assertion.

Chiao bella.

so then there is only one correct form of Christianity? which one? do tell. people have been in-fighting for thousands of years about this... that you have the final answer is simply amazing.

Why do I get the feeling that you are starting off with, "it's easy, I know exactly how to do Christianity"
....
and then headed to a, "No one knew how hard a universal definition of Christianity would be"

 

[Rayschism]

That's paradoxical.
I would have thought that it takes autonomous free will to reflect upon whether or not we have the free will to reflect upon our own free will. But maybe I'm pre-programmed to think that by my Creator who freely decided to create me as a robot.



I don't think that. If one Christian thinks "x" and another thinks "y" does that suggest not all Christians have free will?

... If [you don't] then you get to go to hell and burn for all eternity.

That does not seem to be free will to me.

Doesn't the creator/owner of this forum have the right to say ...obey the rules or get banned?
The consequences of ones actions don't undermine the freedom we have to make good or bad decisions.

...Also, I really have a lot of hostility towards the ideas of simply unbelieving is no different than commtting horrible crimes against ten year old children.

Except that's not a biblical idea.

The bible says - in several places - that we are judged proportionately to our deeds and the motives for those deeds. (See Proverbs 16:2 for example.) The good and the bad deeds "weighed" in the balance like on a set of scales. (See Revelation 2:23)

...I have an exceptionally hard time fathoming that mentality.

Fathom this.

A missionary travels to a remote village and tells everyone about Jesus. He tells them, “If you do not accept Jesus, you will burn in hell for all eternity.” Before the missionary leaves, the tribal elder asks, “If we had never heard about this Jesus, would God have sent us all to hell?” The missionary replies, “No, I don’t suppose God would condemn you due to your ignorance,” to which the elder replied “Then why did you tell us about him!?”

No, it very much is the defacto Christian idea. There are more than a few verse in the Bible that condemn unbelief. Those that do not believe are condemned already.

What, are you God, like The God? There are almost no "de facto Christian" ideas. You seem to confuse/conflate your personal interpretation of scripture, for the totality of all self described Christian thought.

Then you really don't know anything about Christianity and are just revealing your own biases as what you think are facts. You also do not seem to understand the irony of your own assertion.

Chiao bella.

so then there is only one correct form of Christianity? which one? do tell. people have been in-fighting for thousands of years about this... that you have the final answer is simply amazing.

Why do I get the feeling that you are starting off with, "it's easy, I know exactly how to do Christianity"
....
and then headed to a, "No one knew how hard a universal definition of Christianity would be"

No. Those are simply your own cognitive biases revealing yourself. Your hatred and bigotry are showing.

 

[abaddon]

No. Those are simply your own cognitive biases revealing yourself. Your hatred and bigotry are showing.

That's a very shit-poor argument. Can you support your stance or not? Do you comprehend that you are required to, by reason, if you make big proclamations on what's true?

 

[Philos]

Hi Rayschism,

I hope you don't mind me mentioning this, but there is something interesting about your screen name. There is a word inside it. If we remove the letters "y, s and h" there is word there.

A.

 

[Lion IRC]

Hi Racism,

I hope you don't mind me mentioning this, but there is something interesting about your screen name. There is a word inside it. If we remove the letters "y, s and h" there is word there.

A.

I hate Words With Friends

 

[funinspace]

That's paradoxical.
I would have thought that it takes autonomous free will to reflect upon whether or not we have the free will to reflect upon our own free will. But maybe I'm pre-programmed to think that by my Creator who freely decided to create me as a robot.



I don't think that. If one Christian thinks "x" and another thinks "y" does that suggest not all Christians have free will?

... If [you don't] then you get to go to hell and burn for all eternity.

That does not seem to be free will to me.

Doesn't the creator/owner of this forum have the right to say ...obey the rules or get banned?
The consequences of ones actions don't undermine the freedom we have to make good or bad decisions.

...Also, I really have a lot of hostility towards the ideas of simply unbelieving is no different than commtting horrible crimes against ten year old children.

Except that's not a biblical idea.

The bible says - in several places - that we are judged proportionately to our deeds and the motives for those deeds. (See Proverbs 16:2 for example.) The good and the bad deeds "weighed" in the balance like on a set of scales. (See Revelation 2:23)

...I have an exceptionally hard time fathoming that mentality.

Fathom this.

A missionary travels to a remote village and tells everyone about Jesus. He tells them, “If you do not accept Jesus, you will burn in hell for all eternity.” Before the missionary leaves, the tribal elder asks, “If we had never heard about this Jesus, would God have sent us all to hell?” The missionary replies, “No, I don’t suppose God would condemn you due to your ignorance,” to which the elder replied “Then why did you tell us about him!?”

No, it very much is the defacto Christian idea. There are more than a few verse in the Bible that condemn unbelief. Those that do not believe are condemned already.

What, are you God, like The God? There are almost no "de facto Christian" ideas. You seem to confuse/conflate your personal interpretation of scripture, for the totality of all self described Christian thought.

Then you really don't know anything about Christianity and are just revealing your own biases as what you think are facts. You also do not seem to understand the irony of your own assertion.

Chiao bella.

so then there is only one correct form of Christianity? which one? do tell. people have been in-fighting for thousands of years about this... that you have the final answer is simply amazing.

Why do I get the feeling that you are starting off with, "it's easy, I know exactly how to do Christianity"
....
and then headed to a, "No one knew how hard a universal definition of Christianity would be"

No. Those are simply your own cognitive biases revealing yourself. Your hatred and bigotry are showing.

It is rather ironic you sneering at 3 people, including one Christian and two non-theists over you declaring what Christian thought has to be. You could have tried explaining maybe a tad more of what you mean, or providing a more nuanced clarification of your universal statement. Somehow, I have a hard time imagining that you spent time looking back any of the three of our backgrounds from previous posting/comments to actually have a clue as to our biases, bigotries, or level of ignorance... Lots of my background is buried within many a post, but again, it is hard to imagine you bothering to root it out. I will say, that you seem very quick to dismiss people and assume you know how they are thinking better than they do...

I don't often agree with Lion IRC, but I don't try to tell him that XYZ is the "defacto Christian idea". I do find it quirky when people state they are Christian but deny that the Jesus character is part of the Christian god-head. I find it weird that they don't go for the clearer term deist. But they seem comfy with using the Christian label. Personally, I would consider anyone who ascribes to the Nicene or Apostles creeds to be in the Christian category. It is another thing to debate whether idea XYZ is supported within the Bible(s), or the most logical interpretation.