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120 Reasons to Reject Christianity

People back then didn't call those events "miracles" because they would have understood the laws of physics.
They didn't have OUR understanding of physics, but they did think they knew how the world worked.

Read The Books. The author explains why he records the miracles performed by Jesus, so that we can see that he was, indeed, the Son of God, and these miraculous deeds were proof that he had the authority to command the power of the divine. That's the same understanding of miracle, 'shit that would not have happened without God's direct action.'

So, whether they thought the moon is a direct source of light or merely a reflector, they knew that dead people didn't get up again, hat leprosy did not go into spontaneous remission, that cut-off-ears did not snap back into place like a Lego piece. Thus these were miracles.
 
They do if God manipulated nature to make the miracle happen.
Yes but I would find it difficult to comprehend where the observable indication , the fine line would be between natural and supernatural when an unexpected result happens.

So miracles are just confusions of the Bible writers? Where is Jesus' divinity in this "angle" you are proposing?
You left out the revivification of dead bodies and the ascension of at least one formerly dead body into heaven. Is there another angle from which to view those miracles naturally?
I was pointing out from the perspective of non believers or historians that regard miracles as described "not" being evidence if by the criteria of physical laws.



And in such cases is that an act of divine intervention or is it just happenstance?
Who knows? Its miraculous though.


If you relativize these beliefs into "views", if you compromise so that skeptics get to have their 'natural explanation' and believers get to have their 'miracles', then you compromise away the miraculous quality of the Bible's alleged events. Miracles become highly improbable but very nice coincidences and nothing more.

As mentioned above. The natural explanations - the small aspect - imo should be considered by those who don't believe in the biblical text before dismissing miracles from the text so easily - is all I was highlighting.
 
They didn't have OUR understanding of physics, but they did think they knew how the world worked.

Read The Books. The author explains why he records the miracles performed by Jesus, so that we can see that he was, indeed, the Son of God, and these miraculous deeds were proof that he had the authority to command the power of the divine. That's the same understanding of miracle, 'shit that would not have happened without God's direct action.'

So, whether they thought the moon is a direct source of light or merely a reflector, they knew that dead people didn't get up again, hat leprosy did not go into spontaneous remission, that cut-off-ears did not snap back into place like a Lego piece. Thus these were miracles.

Of course ... these were more or less some of the written miracles at least. Definition of miracles before the criteria of physical laws in the context.
 
Learner,

Here is your choice about the Jesus miracles:
1) They're the acts of a powerful being making nature to do something it normally wouldn't do.
2) Events like those don't happen in nature.
3) You just don't know at all what the truth of it is.

Pick one, and don't say anything more about different understandings. We're after the truth about reality, not just differing perspectives of people.
 
Of course ... these were more or less some of the written miracles at least. Definition of miracles before the criteria of physical laws in the context.
So, what's your point?
Bible miracles are or are not presented as evidence of God and the afterlife and the whole shebang?

That's Lumpy's argument.

Jesus healed miraculously, therefore he's messiah, therefore there's an afterlife, therefore we have souls that can reach the afterlife, therefore we can believe in Jesus and get to Heaven (aside from certain behavioral requirements he dismisses as unnecessary).
If they're NOT impossible, if the miracles are just 'unexpected but still rationally possible shit' then that whole chain of connotations collapses.

Some people fall in frozen lakes and die, but you're not dead until you're warm and dead, so they can be restored, which is a pretty big deal, but no need for supernatural elements to explain it. The end.
 
If they're NOT impossible, if the miracles are just 'unexpected but still rationally possible shit' then that whole chain of connotations collapses.
Yes. THIS! I was trying to say Learner's undoing the theistic argument by apparently seeking a middle ground with naturalists, but he just doesn't seem to get it at all.

The denser the haze the safer the beliefs, I guess.
 
I think they're just trying to get the nonbelievers to feel the tiniest shred of doubt when they say 'there's no evidence for it and it's impossible.'
 
As if 'non-believers' need an excuse to use their favourite three words...
That's not evidence.
 
I'd accept credible evidence, but there has been so much lies and deceit and manipulation related to the evidence concerning Jesus it would have to be pretty exceptional, credible
Proof of Jesus is necessarily evidence for God for some folks
 
As if 'non-believers' need an excuse to use their favourite three words...
That's not evidence.
If you said "ribbit, ribbit" all the time, people would ask if you're a frog. Would it mean they're weird to ask that?
 
So, what's your point?
Bible miracles are or are not presented as evidence of God and the afterlife and the whole shebang?
Wether the notion of "miracles" were true or not , was the highlight in this particular discussion. I was making a point (or trying to in laymans terms)say that miracles (not all) can be seen by natural explanation to some degree.

That's Lumpy's argument.

Jesus healed miraculously, therefore he's messiah, therefore there's an afterlife, therefore we have souls that can reach the afterlife, therefore we can believe in Jesus and get to Heaven (aside from certain behavioral requirements he dismisses as unnecessary).
If they're NOT impossible, if the miracles are just 'unexpected but still rationally possible shit' then that whole chain of connotations collapses.

Some people fall in frozen lakes and die, but you're not dead until you're warm and dead, so they can be restored, which is a pretty big deal, but no need for supernatural elements to explain it. The end.

No contradiction with Lumpy's argument ... I'm with Lumpy on the miracles of Jesus and the context of biblical possibles and impossibilties as referenced and says clearly below in the bible:


Matthew 19:26 - But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Luke 1:37 - For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Philippians 4:13 - I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Luke 18:27 - And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.


Mark 10:27 - And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

(Abbadon not much to choose from 3 options- reply when I get back)
 
Wether the notion of "miracles" were true or not , was the highlight in this particular discussion. I was making a point (or trying to in laymans terms)say that miracles (not all) can be seen by natural explanation to some degree.
Um, no. The 'highlight' of this particular discussion is that the written account of those miracles is the basis for belief in the Christ. IF you put them in layman's terms, then they're (the miracles're) not a reason to NOT reject Christainity.
No contradiction with Lumpy's argument ... I'm with Lumpy on the miracles of Jesus and the context of biblical possibles and impossibilties as referenced and says clearly below in the bible:
Then there can be no naturalistic explanation for the events, else there's no reason to accept the Jesus myth as a path to salvation.
 
As if 'non-believers' need an excuse to use their favourite three words...
That's not evidence.

Nobody needs an excuse to use those words. Just a grasp of what is or is not evidence.

I have a dragon in my garage. The evidence is that my garage has a red roof.

Now, do you, as a dragon 'non-believer' think that that's not evidence? Or are you going to take my word for it about the dragon?

When the stuff you claim as evidence is constantly derided, then you might want to at least consider that the problem may not be with the other people who keep deriding your non-evidence.

For the record, my favourite three words on this subject are 'nullius in verba'
 
As if 'non-believers' need an excuse to use their favourite three words...
That's not evidence.

The Bible is evidence that somebody wrote a story about a supernatural creature and its interactions with our species, or possibly even that the author(s) of the Bible believed this story. It is not evidence that this story is credible. Do you understand the distinction?
 
It is known that Doctors who have studied medicine under scientific methods have giving some patients very short times to live where infact they have remarkably & unexpectedly pulled through and lived much longer. Some cases ; the desease is gone.


Sure, but spontaneous remission is not necessarily a miracle because our bodies do have the means to heal. A miraculous cure would be something like a large tumour disappearing instantaneously or in too short a time span for natural remission. Or someone crippled for life is suddenly mobile, or new limbs growing on stumps, etc. Things that are considered impossible, yet have been shown to happen (as opposed to have been said to happen), which has not actually happened yet.

Spontaneous remission may have any number of possible biological mechanisms, out of the ordinary, unusual, unexpected, marvelous...but not necessarily miracles in the sense of the word.
 
It is known that Doctors who have studied medicine under scientific methods have giving some patients very short times to live where infact they have remarkably & unexpectedly pulled through and lived much longer. Some cases ; the desease is gone.


Sure, but spontaneous remission is not necessarily a miracle because our bodies do have the means to heal. A miraculous cure would be something like a large tumour disappearing instantaneously or in too short a time span for natural remission. Or someone crippled for life is suddenly mobile, or new limbs growing on stumps, etc. Things that are considered impossible, yet have been shown to happen (as opposed to have been said to happen), which has not actually happened yet.

Spontaneous remission may have any number of possible biological mechanisms, out of the ordinary, unusual, unexpected, marvelous...but not necessarily miracles in the sense of the word.

Misdiagnosis is also distressingly common. Just because a doctor tells you your condition is fatal, that doesn't mean that your survival is miraculous.

Nobody ever regrows a missing limb though. Not once. Perhaps because that's not a condition that even the most distracted and sleep-deprived junior medic is likely to misdiagnose.

"I am sorry to have to inform you, Mr Smith, but your right arm had to be amputated ...".

"... Oh, hang on a minute; Nope, my bad, it was just hidden by a fold of your hospital gown".
 
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You can't use the "laws of physics" to erase past events or evidence of events you think should not have happened.

The bottom line is that there is no evidence for miracles - events that contravene the laws of physics and the normal progress of events - at any time or place in history, including modern times and the present.

This is ideology, or dogma, not a scientific statement of anything about the real world.

Nope. Wrong. It is logic and reason based on how the world actually works . . .

No, you're dictating WHAT HAPPENED, not how it works. Science/physics does not dictate what is happening or what happened, but explains HOW it happens. I.e., it accepts what has been observed or reported as happening, and then explains HOW it happened.

But your doctrine claims to prove certain alleged events could not have happened regardless how much evidence reports that they did happen. This is not what science or physics does. Physics does not pick out certain past reported events and declare that they did not happen because it was impossible and could not have happened.

Again, here's a site which says 9-11 did not happen because it would have violated the laws of physics: https://911planeshoax.com/tag/911-impossible-physics/

You're saying the same thing about past reported events. I.e., they could not have happened because such a thing violates the laws of physics, according to you.

You cannot rewrite history or undo the historical record by simply declaring it violates the "laws of physics" -- you cannot just make up your own facts, or negate reported facts, by declaring what your version of physics allows and disallows.

The world is not required to conform to your version of what physics allows and doesn't allow to be possible. If something happened, your doctrines, whether you call it "physics" or some other title, cannot undo it by dictating that it's impossible. If it happened, then it is possible, regardless of your dogma.

. . . as opposed to how some people claim it works but cannot prove it.

You are the one claiming to disprove things which you have not disproved, declaring certain past events violated the "laws of physics" and thus could not really have happened. You have no "laws of physics" which have disproved anything, other than what you are fabricating. You have no more proof than the above character ( https://911planeshoax.com/tag/911-impossible-physics/ ) who claims the "laws of physics" prove that 9-11 never happened.

. . . there being not a single bona fide, provable miracle (as defined) to be found in ancient records or in modern times.

There is evidence that events happened, including the Jesus "miracles" in the gospel accounts, but this doesn't mean they are "provable" -- they are reported in the record, and this is evidence that they happened. A large part of the historical record is not "provable" as being certain, but there is evidence that the events did happen. You cannot undo that evidence, or prove those events did not happen, by imposing your "laws of physics" doctrine onto them. The historical facts did happen regardless of your twisted version of physics.


If an event happened, that overrides your subjective religious feelings which you clothe in this pseudo-scientific rhetoric. Calling your religion "the laws of physics" does not make it scientific.

Physics is not a religion or an ideology or a matter of faith but an ongoing study on how the world works . . .

Real physics is not, but your twisted version of physics is an ideology which pretends that reported events did not really happen because the "laws of physics" make it impossible, by your interpretation. But physics is not the ideology you pretend it is, presuming to undo past events or overruling reports of what happened, like a Cosmic Supreme Court handing down injunctions prescribing to us what did or did not happen. We know what happened from observations and reports of what was observed, not from an abstract doctrine prescribing what is allowed or disallowed to happen.

Which means it does not dictate that certain events could not have happened even though there is evidence reporting that it did happen. It cannot disprove that 9-11 happened, as this character says ( https://911planeshoax.com/tag/911-impossible-physics/ ) it can, and neither can it disprove that the Jesus miracles happened.

It is not the function of physics to review all the claims in the historical record and declare which ones did and did not happen based on your version of the "laws of physics" -- or anyone else's distorted version of what these "laws" allow or don't allow as possible.

Science / physics has to conform itself to what actually has happened, based on the evidence, including reports of what happened, and not pretend to dictate what really happened or did not happen based on someone's special version of what physics allows or doesn't allow.

. . . based on many decades of observation, testing, prediction and review.

There are no observations or tests or reviews which have disproved reports of what happened, except when a greater preponderance of reports or observations contradict others. These reports and observations give us our knowledge of what happened, not your doctrines imposing your "laws of physics" ideology.

The true "laws of physics" explain what happens or what happened. They don't overrule what happened or what was reported, as you imagine.


There is no faith involved.

For physics there is not. But your insistence that no "miracle" events can ever happen is based on faith, not on science.


Nor has there been evidence for miracles, events that contravene the laws and principles of physics, uncovered to date.

You cannot erase past events, or evidence of events, with babble jargon like this.

There is evidence (not proof) that the Jesus healing acts did happen. You cannot erase this evidence by labeling it "miracle" and defining "miracle" as something ruled out by your "laws of physics" jargon. You cannot erase that evidence anymore than this character -- https://911planeshoax.com/tag/911-impossible-physics/ -- can erase the 9-11 event with his jargon about the "laws of physics" relating to planes crashing into buildings.

If the events are reported in the record, that is "evidence" that they happened, even though it's not proof. You can't erase that evidence or blot out what happened with your doctrines about what physics allows or doesn't allow.


Again, what it says in the bible, or any holy book, is not evidence that what is said is something true and accurate.

The report that it happened, in ANY source, is evidence that it happened.

You don't negate that source by assigning it a derogatory label like "holy book" and censoring it from the record.

Regardless of your wish that it should not happen -- You cannot selectively go through the record and choose out what you don't like and dictate that it must not have happened because of what your version of the "laws of physics" allows or disallows to happen.


Do you believe whatever is said in the Quran, the Gita, Upanishads, the Tibetan book of the Dead - for example - because the things they say happen to have been written in these books?

It has the same credibility as something in Suetonius or Plutarch. As with all sources, some of it happened and some of it did not.

The report that something happened is evidence that it happened, but is not proof. So we have to look at each claim. We have to ask how close the source was to the event reported. And we have to ask if there's only this one source, or others saying the same.

And we have to apply the same rules to ALL the sources, without prejudice. You can't exclude a source because you hate its content or get negative vibes from it.
 
But your doctrine claims to prove certain alleged events could not have happened regardless how much evidence reports that they did happen.
No, Lumpy. This isn't a 'doctrine' it's how we understand the world to work. And it does not prove events didn't happen. It's the basis for rejecting unsupported claims because they run counter to how we understand the world to work.
As for 'how much evidence,' you're stuck with the fact that extraordinary events that violate the rules of the world as we understand them need OUTSTANDING evidence in order to be taken seriously.

But rather than irrefutable evidence, you're offering refutable evidence, presupposition, and a serious (and apparently willful) misunderstanding of how history and historians work.
And finger-pointing, blaming the critics for your failures.... Very Christain of you.
 
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