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Ontario raising minimum wage to $15

Then you never find a location where the market clearing price is above the minimum wage.

Unfortunately for your position, such places exist.
Bullshit. There is no "single" market clearing price for an entire geographic region or industry. Strictly speaking, there isn't even a "single" market-clearing price for a specific job position. I'll again point out to you that it is fairly common for two employees with similar job qualifications to have very different salaries for sometimes completely arbitrary reasons. When an employer decides, for whatever intangible reason, that a particular employee might be more valuable than his peers, he is willing to pay him more.

I'll say it again: market forces do not factor strongly into hiring decisions. Those are PERSONNEL considerations, and the people who make those kinds of decisions are looking at completely different factors than economists and accountants. The old joke used to be that an employee who smiles is worth $2 more, but an employee who smiles and wears a pushup bra is worth $3 more. It's not that extreme anymore (in most places) but the connection between wages and market forces is tenuous AT BEST, and the most you can say is that the market will set a "baseline" around which wages can expect to vary within 20 to 40%.


They didn't leave chain businesses out. They left out businesses that operated both inside and outside the area in question. I strongly suspect that was a limitation on their data--if their data doesn't include where any given worker works trying to include such data would mess things up.

Only if they combined the data sets instead of treating the multi-firm companies as a separate set. Excluding that set leaves us with no way to know for sure if this trend holds true for businesses outside the area in question, which would lead to something else -- e.g. general trends in wage distribution over time due to broader economic concerns -- being involved.
 
Nope, it's a continuum. The more profit you destroy by raising the price of labor, the more jobs you kill.

Economics class should have told you.
Any economics class that told anyone that is being taught by either an incompetent fool or an ignorant ideologue. There is nothing in neoclassical or Marxian economic theory that indicates a reduction in profit by raising the price of labor necessarily kills jobs.

There is a working assumption in American capitalism that the parasites at the top of a corporation stealing from all below are the last to take a pay cut.
 
Any economics class that told anyone that is being taught by either an incompetent fool or an ignorant ideologue. There is nothing in neoclassical or Marxian economic theory that indicates a reduction in profit by raising the price of labor necessarily kills jobs.

There is a working assumption in American capitalism that the parasites at the top of a corporation stealing from all below are the last to take a pay cut.

It's a pretty good assumption, actually.
 
Well then, as long as people keep hiring employees when they no longer make profit from doing so we should be fine.

Corporate profits have doubled under our neoliberal economic policies since 1980, as a portion of GDP, to where they are more than five times the amount of corporate capital investment, up from twice in 1980. They continue to climb year after year. There is a lot of profits to convert into wages before we threaten to eliminate profits, don't you agree?

I assume from the brevity of your response that this is the only point I presented that you had a problem with?

False.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1Pik

In 1980: 7.567%

Today (2015): 9.088%

Increase of 20% in relative terms.
 
Corporate profits have doubled under our neoliberal economic policies since 1980, as a portion of GDP, to where they are more than five times the amount of corporate capital investment, up from twice in 1980. They continue to climb year after year. There is a lot of profits to convert into wages before we threaten to eliminate profits, don't you agree?

I assume from the brevity of your response that this is the only point I presented that you had a problem with?

False.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1Pik

In 1980: 7.567%

Today (2015): 9.088%

Increase of 20% in relative terms.

So they were cut in half under Reagan and then sped up under Bush and stayed high under Obama.
 
Yes, this is the desired result, to convert profits into higher wages and more benefits.

Once again, the mythical infinite pool of profits to fund leftist dreams.

Most businesses aren't operating at that high a profit margin in the first place. Without monopoly power the profit margin of a business will be pushed to the minimum acceptable level over time. If it's too high a competitor shows up. If it's too low when somebody fails there's no replacement, the drop in supply raises the price.

While you can force the profit margin down in the short run in the long run it will return to it's old value but at the expense of jobs.

Thus you, like most of your allies, are actually attempting to move people from low pay jobs to no jobs.
 
Corporate profits have doubled under our neoliberal economic policies since 1980, as a portion of GDP, to where they are more than five times the amount of corporate capital investment, up from twice in 1980. They continue to climb year after year. There is a lot of profits to convert into wages before we threaten to eliminate profits, don't you agree?

I assume from the brevity of your response that this is the only point I presented that you had a problem with?

False.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1Pik

In 1980: 7.567%

Today (2015): 9.088%

Increase of 20% in relative terms.

That's corporate profits as a percentage of GDP. Raw profits:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CP
 
Corporate profits have doubled under our neoliberal economic policies since 1980, as a portion of GDP, to where they are more than five times the amount of corporate capital investment, up from twice in 1980. They continue to climb year after year. There is a lot of profits to convert into wages before we threaten to eliminate profits, don't you agree?

I assume from the brevity of your response that this is the only point I presented that you had a problem with?

False.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1Pik

In 1980: 7.567%

Today (2015): 9.088%

Increase of 20% in relative terms.
According to the graph in your link, the the corporate profit share of GDP was under 5% for most of the 1980s and bounces between 9% and 10% from 2010 on, so it is a reasonable approximation that the share has doubled since then.

Of course, corporate profits as a share of GDP is not a terribly stable ratio over time.
 
Some businesses might fail, but the ones who do will be the ones who are making so little profit that they can't absorb the increase in wages by reducing their profits, they can't increase their prices because of competition from more efficient companies. This is what is called "creative destruction" and it is both an inescapable and a desirable feature of capitalism.

No, you don't understand what's happening.

The destruction of the least efficient companies is a good thing because they will be replaced by more competent competitors.

However, in a situation like this where the destruction is due to a shifting of the equilibrium there will be no replacement. The jobs are simply gone.

It is the same thing that happens when raw material prices go up. Some marginal companies go bankrupt but more efficient companies step in to claim the market share that the failed business had, sometimes even to the point of buying the production facilities of the failed business, at a steep discount, and employing the same workers. In fact, it is more likely that stronger more efficient companies will buyout the weaker less efficient companies long before the failing company into bankruptcy. Especially if the economy is strong, a point I will return to below.

Except the new equilibrium will have fewer jobs and less production than the old.

This brings us to another point, the so-called free market capitalists profess to believe in capitalism as the best economic system, by far. But it doesn't take long to realize that they don't appreciate capitalism ultimate strength, its ability to adapt to changing conditions. The free market capitalist views capitalistic economies as fragile clockwork mechanisms that are easily disrupted, when in truth they are robust and they adapt quickly to different conditions. You only have to look at the many different capitalistic economies that are running successfully in the world and the changes that they have made throughout history to see that this is true.

We understand that it's good at adapting. What you don't understand is that when you shift the equilibrium the result doesn't return to the original.

Raise the minimum wage and you see the market shift towards automation rather than human labor.

Also, it seems that in discussions like this one about the minimum wage free market capitalists treat the economy as a zero sum game, or worse. But it isn't. The more workers there are and the more money that they have from wages, the larger the economy will be. The fewer workers there are who have jobs and the lower that wages and salaries are the smaller the economy will be.

Yeah--and your world will have fewer jobs for the marginal workers.

You are letting your imagination run away with you. We have had frequent increases in the minimum wage and none have produced the problems that you want to assign to it. There is nothing in the literature to even come close to what you are predicting.

The minimum wage increases have not completely offset inflation, thus we should not expect to see effects as the true minimum wage has been declining. Furthermore, most studies look at the unemployment rate--a very poor yardstick as only about 1% of US workers actually make minimum wage. A change that resulted in 10% of them losing their job would thus raise the unemployment rate by .1%--and without far more data points than we have this is undetectable.

This is part of why the Seattle study is so relevant--it tracked workers rather than the overall unemployment rate. Thus it didn't suffer the 99% noise ratio that looking at the unemployment rate does.

(I favor a confiscatory level inheritance tax.)

In other words, a system where nobody can strike it rich with new innovation. In other words, a world with very little new innovation because there's little upside to taking the risk.

- - - Updated - - -

Well then, as long as people keep hiring employees when they no longer make profit from doing so we should be fine.

Corporate profits have doubled under our neoliberal economic policies since 1980, as a portion of GDP, to where they are more than five times the amount of corporate capital investment, up from twice in 1980. They continue to climb year after year. There is a lot of profits to convert into wages before we threaten to eliminate profits, don't you agree?

I assume from the brevity of your response that this is the only point I presented that you had a problem with?

You sure do want to dine on golden goose!

For a clear indication of the outcome of your approach look at Venezuela.
 
Bullshit. There is no "single" market clearing price for an entire geographic region or industry. Strictly speaking, there isn't even a "single" market-clearing price for a specific job position. I'll again point out to you that it is fairly common for two employees with similar job qualifications to have very different salaries for sometimes completely arbitrary reasons. When an employer decides, for whatever intangible reason, that a particular employee might be more valuable than his peers, he is willing to pay him more.

There are places where everyone makes more than minimum wage because that's what employers have to offer to get the labor they need.

They didn't leave chain businesses out. They left out businesses that operated both inside and outside the area in question. I strongly suspect that was a limitation on their data--if their data doesn't include where any given worker works trying to include such data would mess things up.

Only if they combined the data sets instead of treating the multi-firm companies as a separate set. Excluding that set leaves us with no way to know for sure if this trend holds true for businesses outside the area in question, which would lead to something else -- e.g. general trends in wage distribution over time due to broader economic concerns -- being involved.

You're assuming they combined them.

Remember, they were working with data from the labor department. They got an unusually complete data set because companies there are required to report hours worked, not just income. If the records aren't tagged with where the employee worked (and what about floaters???) they would have no way to sort it out.
 
Wealth has been accumulating in hands of a relatively small percentage of the worlds population for too long. This is not sustainable. This needs to be addressed and reversed and a fairer means of wealth distribution put into place.
 
Wealth has been accumulating in hands of a relatively small percentage of the worlds population for too long. This is not sustainable. This needs to be addressed and reversed and a fairer means of wealth distribution put into place.

Once again, eat the rich economics.
 
There are places where everyone makes more than minimum wage because that's what employers have to offer to get the labor they need.

They didn't leave chain businesses out. They left out businesses that operated both inside and outside the area in question. I strongly suspect that was a limitation on their data--if their data doesn't include where any given worker works trying to include such data would mess things up.

Only if they combined the data sets instead of treating the multi-firm companies as a separate set. Excluding that set leaves us with no way to know for sure if this trend holds true for businesses outside the area in question, which would lead to something else -- e.g. general trends in wage distribution over time due to broader economic concerns -- being involved.

You're assuming they combined them.

He didn't assume shit because the additional dataset was not collected, and thus was not available for combination. Please try to keep up with the discussion.
 
Wealth has been accumulating in hands of a relatively small percentage of the worlds population for too long. This is not sustainable. This needs to be addressed and reversed and a fairer means of wealth distribution put into place.

Once again, eat the rich economics.
You need to explain thoroughly how asking for a fairer means of wealth distribution necessarily means "eating the rich" if you want anyone to take your response seriously.
 
Once again, eat the rich economics.
You need to explain thoroughly how asking for a fairer means of wealth distribution necessarily means "eating the rich" if you want anyone to take your response seriously.

And you assume using force to take from those who earned it and give to those who didn't is fair?
 
Wealth has been accumulating in hands of a relatively small percentage of the worlds population for too long. This is not sustainable. This needs to be addressed and reversed and a fairer means of wealth distribution put into place.

Once again, eat the rich economics.

I don't know what that's supposed to mean. Are you saying the rich will get poor if a fairer system wealth distribution is implemented? Only able to afford two or three mansions instead of six or seven? No private jet?
 
You need to explain thoroughly how asking for a fairer means of wealth distribution necessarily means "eating the rich" if you want anyone to take your response seriously.

And you assume using force to take from those who earned it and give to those who didn't is fair?

It's not a matter of force, just social justice. Nor is it a question of someone actually earning 5 million a year with bonuses for ''working hard,'' just being in the position, a skill set that is in demand, to get a high salary....often in return for poor management.
 
You need to explain thoroughly how asking for a fairer means of wealth distribution necessarily means "eating the rich" if you want anyone to take your response seriously.

And you assume using force to take from those who earned it and give to those who didn't is fair?
I made no assumption about force. In fact, achieving a fair distribution of wealth need not require force of any kind (although that is unlikely). I asked how asking for a fairer means of wealth distribution (whatever that means) necessarily means "eating the rich".

By chance, do you mean that using "force" to achieve a fairer means of wealth distribution is, by definition, "eating the rich" economics?
 
You need to explain thoroughly how asking for a fairer means of wealth distribution necessarily means "eating the rich" if you want anyone to take your response seriously.

And you assume using force to take from those who earned it and give to those who didn't is fair?

I'll say it. Yes, it is fair. Taxes are used to maintain a healthy society. If you refuse to pay your taxes, you will be forced to. You've said you are for UBI (just not yet). How do you think UBI would be funded? You need to think things through a little further before you use the stupid 'taxes are theft' angle.
 
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