Nuclear terrorism

[angelo]

What you don't seem to get through your thick skulls is that prior to annexation in 1947-48 the Arabs had no interest at all in what's today called the land of Israel. There were no fucking Palestinians prior to 1947. Furthermore, these so called refugees could easily have been settled in the surrounding Arab lands but they chose not to.

Which is their prerogative. If you think Israel has the right to refuse to settle the Palestinians, then you have to grant the Arab countries the same right. As for the stupid claim that Arabs didn't care about the land, they certainly cared enough to go to war over it.

They went to war over a desert? If Israel converted to islam, overnight, next morning the fighting would cease.

 

[Togo]

If Israel converted to islam, overnight, next morning the fighting would cease.

Of course it would. The settlement program, a religious attempt to claim all of Palestine for a single religious group, would cease, along with the accompanying restrictions on economic development, freedom of movement, food and medical supplies. Religious discrimination in Jerusalem would be ended, the Palestinians would enjoy the right to return, and everything would be one big state.

Or did you mean that if Israel was a hostile Islamic power, rather than a hostile Jewish one, the Palestinians would be happy and grateful being bombed?

 

[angelo]

If Israel converted to islam, overnight, next morning the fighting would cease.

Of course it would. The settlement program, a religious attempt to claim all of Palestine for a single religious group, would cease, along with the accompanying restrictions on economic development, freedom of movement, food and medical supplies. Religious discrimination in Jerusalem would be ended, the Palestinians would enjoy the right to return, and everything would be one big state.

Or did you mean that if Israel was a hostile Islamic power, rather than a hostile Jewish one, the Palestinians would be happy and grateful being bombed?

Sorry. I don't have the patience to converse with the naive.

 

[4321lynx]

Which is their prerogative. If you think Israel has the right to refuse to settle the Palestinians, then you have to grant the Arab countries the same right. As for the stupid claim that Arabs didn't care about the land, they certainly cared enough to go to war over it.

They went to war over a desert? If Israel converted to islam, overnight, next morning the fighting would cease.

You mean there would be peace? Peace like in Iraq? Or peace like in Syria? Or at best, peace like in Egypt?
,

 

[Harry Bosch]

They went to war over a desert? If Israel converted to islam, overnight, next morning the fighting would cease.

You mean there would be peace? Peace like in Iraq? Or peace like in Syria? Or at best, peace like in Egypt?
,

There won't be any peace in the middle east until Islam moderates outnumber and are willing to fight the jihadists.

 

[angelo]

Too right. Peace can only ever be achieved there once Hamas is history. And that's not about to happen soon.

 

[laughing dog]

Prior to 1948, the area was called Palestine and its inhabitants were Palestinians.
And all the Jewish emigrants to Palestine could have easily settled elsewhere, but they choose not to.

Why should they? Jews can prove they have been there for millennia. It was the Roman/Jewish war of circa 60-70AD that scattered them to all parts of the Roman Empire. But always there was left behind a remnant, even during the Babylonian exile centuries before that.

Then why should the Arabs who lived in Palestine relocate? Pointing back over 2000 years is a redundant history lesson. Adherence to that history along with religion is what makes the Israel/Palestine question so intractable.

 

[4321lynx]

You mean there would be peace? Peace like in Iraq? Or peace like in Syria? Or at best, peace like in Egypt?
,

There won't be any peace in the middle east until Islam moderates outnumber and are willing to fight the jihadists.

Where are the Arab moderates? I mean those Arabs that are moderate towards Israel. I'm not talking about Malaysians or Indonesians, I'm talking about ARABS and pseudo-Arabs like Egyptians and Sudanese.

 

[4321lynx]

What you don't seem to get through your thick skulls is that prior to annexation in 1947-48 the Arabs had no interest at all in what's today called the land of Israel. There were no fucking Palestinians prior to 1947.,,

There were no fucking Israelis either. There were a few "token" Jews living there for religious or economic reasons. Europe's and America's ages old attitude to their Jewish populations + religion + Germany's (OK 'Nazis') Holocaust resulted in Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine

 

[steve_bnk]

What you don't seem to get through your thick skulls is that prior to annexation in 1947-48 the Arabs had no interest at all in what's today called the land of Israel. There were no fucking Palestinians prior to 1947. Furthermore, these so called refugees could easily have been settled in the surrounding Arab lands but they chose not to.

Bullshit.


There was a running civil war between Zionist Jews and Arabs, with the Brits in The Mandate tending to side with the Arabs.

Initially Jewish factions fought each other as well as the Brits and Arabs but eventually coalesced. Both Jews and Arabs committed what we today would call terrorist atrocities. To the Arabs and Bits Begin was very much a terrorist.

Arabs rejected the proposed UN solution, it was resource unbalanced. Arab leadership warned of violence if it was forced.

Israel unilaterally declared a state seizing prime agricultural and industrial real estate, and most importantly water.

The Arabs formed a coalition and so began the first Arab-Israeli war. The Arabs enlisted Palestine Arabs in the fight, and when they lost abandoned them. Today 'The Palestinians'.

Netanyahu is an expert propagandist in his video pleas that Israel is the Innocent victim. The reality is the Palestinians are fighting the same fight the Jews did. Jews smuggled arms through the British embargo. Jewish rebels were financed and supplied from abroad.


The Palestinian aggression is simply a continuation of the original war.

When Israel withdrew from Gaza they were given self determination, Israel was not going to set up a state. Hamas and Fatah turned on each other in a civil war.

A two state solution today is anathema to the current Israeli conservative coalition. A few years back when Abbas sought UN special observer status Israel went ballistic. Same when recently Hamas and the PA talked about a unity govt leading to a unified Palestinian state.

Once that happens I would imagine the Israeli settlements and land seizing in the west bank then becomes an issue that an can be addressed legally in international courts and the UN.

Netanyahu earlier in the year said unequivocally Israel will expand into Palestinian land as it see fits. A negotiated settlement of lines essentially brings that to an end. The Israeli conservatives want a Jewish Jerusalem and area. To that end they have been condemning Arab land and building Israeli infrastructure along with limiting Arab building permits. It is all documented.

What Israel wants is a disarmed Palestine and then continuing with the gray status quo on boundaries and settlements. Beyond that I doubt Israel cares much what the Palestinians do.

 

[steve_bnk]

There won't be any peace in the middle east until Islam moderates outnumber and are willing to fight the jihadists.

Where are the Arab moderates? I mean those Arabs that are moderate towards Israel. I'm not talking about Malaysians or Indonesians, I'm talking about ARABS and pseudo-Arabs like Egyptians and Sudanese.

1. The unilateral declaration of Israel.
2. Seizure of Arab property.
3. Denial of Arab return to their legally owned lands.
4. Attacking Egypt in concert with Europeans in the Suez War.
5. The humiliating Arab defeats in 67 and 73.
5. Being a western oriented secular democracy in a region of Muslim monarchs and dictators.

Israel right or wrong to the regional Muslims is what Al Quida is to us, a fundamental doctrinal ideological enemy.

Israel within its borders is a liberal state with a high degree of tolerance and a secular democracy and civil system. A thriving Israel is a fundamental threat to the Arab oil states with their hereditary aristocracies, strict Islamic cultures, and social-economic caste systems.

Imagine a Saudi Arabia in the middle of Texas..

 

[4321lynx]

Where are the Arab moderates? I mean those Arabs that are moderate towards Israel. I'm not talking about Malaysians or Indonesians, I'm talking about ARABS and pseudo-Arabs like Egyptians and Sudanese.

1. The unilateral declaration of Israel.
2. Seizure of Arab property.
3. Denial of Arab return to their legally owned lands.
4. Attacking Egypt in concert with Europeans in the Suez War.
5. The humiliating Arab defeats in 67 and 73.
5. Being a western oriented secular democracy in a region of Muslim monarchs and dictators.

Israel right or wrong to the regional Muslims is what Al Quida is to us, a fundamental doctrinal ideological enemy.

Israel within its borders is a liberal state with a high degree of tolerance and a secular democracy and civil system. A thriving Israel is a fundamental threat to the Arab oil states with their hereditary aristocracies, strict Islamic cultures, and social-economic caste systems.

Imagine a Saudi Arabia in the middle of Texas..

I agree with you. My point is that both sides are equally non moderate, each for its own reasons.

There are NO moderate Jews, Israeli or non-Israeli, as far as the existence of Israel is concerned.
There are NO moderate Arabs, Palestinian or non-Palestinian, as far as the existence of Israel is concerned.

The token moderates on each side, presented from time to time, are just that, token political pawns, or people with their own agendas.

So what happens when an irresistible force meets and immovable object? The answer is there to be seen for the past 70 years. And likely for the next 70 years. Or more. Unless somebody uses nuclear arms, which YHWH and ALLAH forbid, we hope.

 

[arkirk]

Where are the Arab moderates? I mean those Arabs that are moderate towards Israel. I'm not talking about Malaysians or Indonesians, I'm talking about ARABS and pseudo-Arabs like Egyptians and Sudanese.

1. The unilateral declaration of Israel.
2. Seizure of Arab property.
3. Denial of Arab return to their legally owned lands.
4. Attacking Egypt in concert with Europeans in the Suez War.
5. The humiliating Arab defeats in 67 and 73.
5. Being a western oriented secular democracy in a region of Muslim monarchs and dictators.

Israel right or wrong to the regional Muslims is what Al Quida is to us, a fundamental doctrinal ideological enemy.

Israel within its borders is a liberal state with a high degree of tolerance and a secular democracy and civil system. A thriving Israel is a fundamental threat to the Arab oil states with their hereditary aristocracies, strict Islamic cultures, and social-economic caste systems.

Imagine a Saudi Arabia in the middle of Texas..

Actually, the highlighted statement is not true if you are not Jewish and of European origin. Your citizenship is second class and there are many aspects of civic life you are not allowed to participate in.

 

[Mageth]

Imagine a Saudi Arabia in the middle of Texas..

Austin is in the middle of Texas...an oasis in the middle of the Saudi Arabia that is the rest of Texas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There won't be any peace in the middle east until Islam moderates outnumber and are willing to fight the jihadists.

Where are the Arab moderates? I mean those Arabs that are moderate towards Israel. I'm not talking about Malaysians or Indonesians, I'm talking about ARABS and pseudo-Arabs like Egyptians and Sudanese.

I don't even think they need to be moderate towards Israel, just not warmongers.

 

[steve_bnk]

1. The unilateral declaration of Israel.
2. Seizure of Arab property.
3. Denial of Arab return to their legally owned lands.
4. Attacking Egypt in concert with Europeans in the Suez War.
5. The humiliating Arab defeats in 67 and 73.
5. Being a western oriented secular democracy in a region of Muslim monarchs and dictators.

Israel right or wrong to the regional Muslims is what Al Quida is to us, a fundamental doctrinal ideological enemy.

Israel within its borders is a liberal state with a high degree of tolerance and a secular democracy and civil system. A thriving Israel is a fundamental threat to the Arab oil states with their hereditary aristocracies, strict Islamic cultures, and social-economic caste systems.

Imagine a Saudi Arabia in the middle of Texas..

Actually, the highlighted statement is not true if you are not Jewish and of European origin. Your citizenship is second class and there are many aspects of civic life you are not allowed to participate in.

I have never said on nay thread Israelis perfect or without any blame or criticism.


Israel has a noted Jewish socialpecking order, what society does not? Israel ran airlifts to evacuateblack African Jews. From commentary on the old forum racialdiscrimination among Israeli jews is actually low.


You can not reduce Israel or the USA orany compex western state for that matter to simple black ad whitemoral dichotomies.


if I were to live in Israel I’dprobably live as freely as I do here.


Were I or anyone else on this forum whohave mocked Islam travel to the region we got associated with ourposts we would be in serious trouble.


Someone always brings up citizenship.The late 40s was a different era. Given the Jewish experience in WWIII can at least understand feeling the need to have an exclusiveJewish state.


Last year I spent some time looking atregional media sites. To me Israel in many ways is similar to theUSA. It ranges from the small extremist religious to conservative toliberal theists to atheists. I'd have to fact check but I believesecular Israelis outnumber the practicing religious Jews.


They have a diverse free press. Astable democratic process. An economy, science, technology, andeducation. The original Israelis overcame their factionalism andIsrael ended up being a tremendous accomplishment. Unlike the Muslimswho seem to enjoy shitting on each other.


Conservative religious Jews have a lotof political power but can not dictate civil law, similar toChristianity in the USA. Israel was far ahead of the USA in gayrights.


If anything take away Hamas and Israelis a good model for the Palestinians. Billions in aid has gone toGaza and what they built were rocket factories and tunnels.


From reports I read Israel hasaddressed the inequities of govt service between Jews and Arabs. Biasin employment is said to continue.


Israel does not seem to be monolithic.When the govt tried to displace Bedouins in the Negev both Arabs andIsraelis protested and prevented the move.


To the op there is a lot of anger inthe region by the street level Arabs, Under the current systems theyhave little hope. After the last Arab defeat the anti-Jew rhetoricramped up. Pretty much everything wrong in the Arab world is somehowplaced on Israel.


Arab leadership failed miserably intheir promise to their people to destroy Israel and had to deflectattention away from their own realities, and Israel became thewhipping post.


When you look at history pre Israel thePalestinian Arabs were the poor trash of the region. After Israeliindependence Egypt had Gaza and Jordan annexed the West Bank. Neitherdid anything for the people. A civil war was fought betweenPalestinians and Jordanians, enter Arafat.


The Palestinians should be just aspissed at their fellow Arabs as they are at Israel.


The blockade was enacted by both Israeland Egypt.


It is interesting that given thehistorical second class status of Arab citizens in Israel, there hasbeen no mass exodus or internal rebellion.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel right or wrong to the regional Muslims is what Al Quida is to us, a fundamental doctrinal ideological enemy.

Israel within its borders is a liberal state with a high degree of tolerance and a secular democracy and civil system. A thriving Israel is a fundamental threat to the Arab oil states with their hereditary aristocracies, strict Islamic cultures, and social-economic caste systems.

Imagine a Saudi Arabia in the middle of Texas..

Except Al Qaeda is our enemy because they keep attacking.

Israel is more like a porcupine. Leave it alone and it will leave you alone, tangle with it and you're probably going to get hurt.

 

[Jayjay]

Prior to 1948, the area was called Palestine and its inhabitants were Palestinians.
And all the Jewish emigrants to Palestine could have easily settled elsewhere, but they choose not to.

Why should they? Jews can prove they have been there for millennia. It was the Roman/Jewish war of circa 60-70AD that scattered them to all parts of the Roman Empire. But always there was left behind a remnant, even during the Babylonian exile centuries before that.

Who the fuck cares about what happened thousands of years ago? The Jews from the first century are not the same people or even the same culture as Jews from the 20th century.

 

[steve_bnk]

Israel right or wrong to the regional Muslims is what Al Quida is to us, a fundamental doctrinal ideological enemy.

Israel within its borders is a liberal state with a high degree of tolerance and a secular democracy and civil system. A thriving Israel is a fundamental threat to the Arab oil states with their hereditary aristocracies, strict Islamic cultures, and social-economic caste systems.

Imagine a Saudi Arabia in the middle of Texas..

Except Al Qaeda is our enemy because they keep attacking.

Israel is more like a porcupine. Leave it alone and it will leave you alone, tangle with it and you're probably going to get hurt.

Isreal saying all's it want s is to live in peace while pushing settlements on other people's land justified by some notion of a 2000 year old right is like they say, pissing in the wind.

Today Israeli police in the west bank fired into a peaceful Palestinian demonstration. it is all on video.

This is where Israel demonstrates who they are to the world.

 

[steve_bnk]

Why should they? Jews can prove they have been there for millennia. It was the Roman/Jewish war of circa 60-70AD that scattered them to all parts of the Roman Empire. But always there was left behind a remnant, even during the Babylonian exile centuries before that.

Who the fuck cares about what happened thousands of years ago? The Jews from the first century are not the same people or even the same culture as Jews from the 20th century.

Exactly.

There were Jews in Syria, Palestine, Greece, nd Rome. Factions disagreed on who were the authentic Jews descended from biblical tribes.

Jews today have no traceability to some monolithic Jewish group circa 2000 years ago. It never existed and it is modern Jewish myth.

Palestine was never exclusively Jewish before and after Israel rose and fell.

Hitler justified German expansion by historical manliest ethnic-racial destiny and racial purity. In principle the same reasoning of the Israeli occupation o the west bank today.

While I am not calling Israel Nazis, I find it hard to see how Israel morally justifies its occupation given the modern Jewish experience.