The removal of statues

[DrZoidberg]

But the statue isn't usually distasteful unless you know the history behind the subject. Which is better presented in a textbook than summarized on a plaque.

Fuck the plaque. It's more effective if the statue stands by itself and people are left to figure it out by themselves. USA already suffers from people being spoon fed culture. The moral of a story is usually more effective if it's not spelled out. Let people figure it out by themselves. Art also means different things to different people. Without a plaque, people can project positive things onto the statues if they want. Art is great that way. The artists doesn't get to decide how his art should be interpreted. It's equally true that an onlooker doesn't get to decide what everybody else should interpret from that art.

The statues are also a lesson in that people with money (enough to erect statues) aren't necessarily good people.

No, not really.
The people who paid for the statue also paid for any plaque. They're not going to put 'wasn't a good person' on a statue built to honor any particular guy.
That remains something to learn in school, completely separate from the statue.

EVERYONE in the US has a chance to learn about Grant's or Lee's war record in textbooks. You can't erect a statue in every school district in hopes that someone will see it and wonder, huh? Why'd they put a statue up for this Yahoo? and goes to read up on him...

You don't need to. Why would you even want to? These statues are already there. Just leave them.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Fuck the plaque. It's more effective if the statue stands by itself and people are left to figure it out by themselves.

No, it isn't. It becomes part of the scenery, the background. It does fuck all to educate anyone about the glorious or the deplorable past.

USA already suffers from people being spoon fed culture. The moral of a story is usually more effective if it's not spelled out. Let people figure it out by themselves.

You're stepping on your own point, here. You can't simultaneously criticize Americans for what they do, and defend keeping statues because of what you'd hope that Americans would do.

I mean, I agree that US citizens do not go and look things up, by and large. We wait for someone to tell us if a historical figure was or was not to be admired.

The statues are there and they aren't reading history on their own. So keeping the statues up for them to learn about the guy is a nonstarter.

 

[Mumbles]

No, it isn't. It becomes part of the scenery, the background. It does fuck all to educate anyone about the glorious or the deplorable past.

USA already suffers from people being spoon fed culture. The moral of a story is usually more effective if it's not spelled out. Let people figure it out by themselves.

You're stepping on your own point, here. You can't simultaneously criticize Americans for what they do, and defend keeping statues because of what you'd hope that Americans would do.

I mean, I agree that US citizens do not go and look things up, by and large. We wait for someone to tell us if a historical figure was or was not to be admired.

The statues are there and they aren't reading history on their own. So keeping the statues up for them to learn about the guy is a nonstarter.

Exactly.

THere's plenty of research on the Civil War, available in books, on the internet, in the Baltimore Civil War Museum, in the Smithsonian...All of the above are far more useful ways to learn about it.

 

[hyzer]

Article in The Atlantic

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...-persistence-of-confederate-monuments/479751/

and a very detailed report by the Southern Poverty Law Center:

https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/whoseheritage_splc.pdf

My conclusion, the southern and many northern whites are still fighting the civil war, fighting with every method they can to subjugate blacks.

 

[Keith&Co.]

... still fighting the civil war, fighting with every method they can to subjugate blacks.

And these are the people that reply to Trump's critic's tweets with 'You guys lost, move on.'

 

[Derec]

And these are the people that reply to Trump's critic's tweets with 'You guys lost, move on.'

Well I do not think Republicans would lose their shit if Dems decided to erect a few statues of their tragic hero Hillary.

 

[Sarpedon]

I am reminded of that fierce argument I had with the Australian Metaphor about how Native Americans are somehow oppressing him by criticizing Rowling.

These statues are not 'history,' they are not 'art,' they are a political statement. They were mass produced cheaply, sold to organizations who were affiliated with white supremacist organizations, and erected wherever they had the money and influence to do so. They are bronze bumper stickers, of no more significance than as a measure of the political leanings of the time they were erected. People masquerade them as history, just as the monuments of the ten commandments, erected by a movie studio to promote the film of the same name, are now masqueraded as history, all to serve a political point. Just as people voted and paid to put them up, they can vote and pay to take them down. The monuments that represent truly lasting ideas will remain.

 

[Derec]

I am reminded of that fierce argument I had with the Australian Metaphor about how Native Americans are somehow oppressing him by criticizing Rowling.

What does that have to do with statues? But in any case, the Indians were in the wrong on that one. They do not have copyright on ancient legends.

 

[Mumbles]

These statues are not 'history,' they are not 'art,' they are a political statement. They were mass produced cheaply, sold to organizations who were affiliated with white supremacist organizations, and erected wherever they had the money and influence to do so. They are bronze bumper stickers, of no more significance than as a measure of the political leanings of the time they were erected.

I don't know if I mentioned this before, but while the major one in Bmore was sturdy, the one in Durham that was pulled down was of the cheap, mass-produced variety. That's why it crumpled on impact, and sat there looking like the soldier died of Boneitis.

 

[ZiprHead]

That isn't the point people want them up. They want to glorify these people.

Exactly. People, who are wrong, want to glorify horrible people. There's a lesson here.

edit: Nah, they weren't necessarily horrible. They were people who fought for what they though twas right. Based on science and beliefs of their day. Brainwashed by their surroundings. This is a valuable reminder in a world of... let's say... Christians. They hold ridiculous beliefs that couldn't possibly exist without brainwashing.

The thing is you are advocating that the people who are still brainwashed today should get their way over the non-brainwashed majority. Why is that?

 

[ZiprHead]

This is a picture of the Lee Park statue dedication. That large swath of white is the KKK.

View attachment 12193

 

[LordKiran]

Still waiting for Zoid to explain how relocating a statue is tantamount to erasing history.

 

[angelo]

And these are the people that reply to Trump's critic's tweets with 'You guys lost, move on.'

Well I do not think Republicans would lose their shit if Dems decided to erect a few statues of their tragic hero Hillary.

Who is to say the Dems won't erect statutes to Obama.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Well I do not think Republicans would lose their shit if Dems decided to erect a few statues of their tragic hero Hillary.

Who is to say the Dems won't erect statutes to Obama.

Obama actually won. Not quite as 'tragic' a hero, and a statue of Obama would not necessarily be commissioned for the purpose of offending FFvC.

Trump would lose his shit over an Obama statue, but he'd put his foot through the TV if they erected one for Hillary.

 

[KeepTalking]

There's 70 remaining Confederate civil war monuments in USA. USA is a big country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monuments_and_memorials_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

Here's 76 monuments commemorating the American civil rights movement of the 60'ies and 70'ies.

How did you arrive at that number? As far as I can tell, the wikipedia article you linked does not support it. Here are the numbers I see quoted:

At least 1,503 symbols of the Confederacy can be found in public spaces across the country.

There are at least 107 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Alabama.

The above number apparently includes parks and schools, of which and even dozen are listed in the article, which would drop the number of monuments in Alabama alone to 95, considerably more than the number you put forward for the entire US.

There are at least 3 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Arizona.

Very interesting for a State that did not even exist until 50 years after the Civil War.

There are at least 57 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Arkansas.

There are at least 4 remaining publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in California and 3 former spaces.

Georgetown: Delaware Confederate Monument, unveiled in 2007

Delaware apparently has one, and we certainly don't want to loose track of that Confederate history from 10 years ago, as we might be doomed to repeat it otherwise.

There are at least 61 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Florida.

Note that 11 of these are parks and municipalities.

There are at least 174 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Georgia.

A good number of these are actually roads, though nowhere near the majority.

-Two are listed for Illinois.-

There are at least 3 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Iowa.

There are at least 2 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Idaho.

One of these is apparently a campground, but I will also note that Idaho did not exist as a State until decades after the Civil War.

There are at least 2 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Indiana.

One of the 3 spaces apparently contains two monuments.

Previously, there was one publicly-supported site dedicated to the Confederacy in Kansas.

It then proceeds to list two monuments in Kansas, one of which was removed in 2015.

There are at least 56 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Kentucky.

Two of these are currently being looked at for removal.

There are at least 91 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Louisiana.

There are at least 3 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Maryland.

There is 1 publicly-supported space dedicated to the Confederacy in Massachusetts.

There are at least 131 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Mississippi.

There are at least 20 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Missouri.

One of these was removed earlier this year after several protests from both sides, and repeated vandalism of the memorial.

There are at least 2 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Montana.

There is at least 1 publicly-supported space dedicated to the Confederacy in Nevada.

Just barely made Statehood while the war was still on.

There are at least 3 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in New York.

These are all roads.

There are at least 140 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in North Carolina.

There are at least 3 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Ohio.

There are at least 13 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Oklahoma.

There are at least 4 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Pennsylvania.

There are several monuments at Gettysburg itself (comprising only one of the four spaces listed), but these are some of the most contemporaneous memorials to the actual conflict, having been erected within two decades of the war.

There are at least 112 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in South Carolina.

There are at least 80 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Tennessee.

There are 178 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Texas.

There are at least 223 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Virginia.

There is at least 1 publicly-supported space dedicated to the Confederacy in Washington.

Another state that did not exist during the Civil War, but thought they would get in on the fun anyway.

There are at least 2 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Washington, D.C.

There are at least 17 publicly-supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in West Virginia.

Finally, Wyoming makes the list with:

CSA veteran and Wyoming pioneer John C. Hunton's grave in Lakeview Cemetery, Cheyenne, Wyoming. Buried in 1928, Hunton's burial was updated with a Confederate marker designed by the United Daughters of the Confederacy in 2010.

That Confederate traitor was so damn important to the people of Wyoming that they immediately erected a Confederate marker for him 82 years after his death.

As noted in a number of places, this includes more than just statues, but I have no idea where you got the number you came up with. The number of remaining statues memorializing the Civil War still standing in the US that I saw reported on the news this week was in excess of 700.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Didn't Donald Trump once say "I like people who didn't lose civil wars, ok? I hate to tell you."

 

[LordKiran]

Squish

If it makes you feel any better, there were confederate soldiers that belonged to the confederate Arizona Territory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territory_of_Arizona_(Confederate_States)

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

This is a picture of the Lee Park statue dedication. That large swath of white is the KKK.

View attachment 12193

Cannot see the attachment or is it that white? Anyway, I bet there are "a lot of good people" under those masks.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That isn't the point people want them up. They want to glorify these people.

Exactly. People, who are wrong, want to glorify horrible people. There's a lesson here.

Should we erect a memorial memorializing how stupid pro-confederacy idiots who erect statues for the Confederacy are?

edit: Nah, they weren't necessarily horrible. They were people who fought for what they though twas right.

What was right? Their candidate lost an election and they wanted to leave the nation to place slavery into a sense of perpetual safety. So they killed Americans.

Based on science and beliefs of their day.

BS. The Bible was used to both support slavery and abolition. People used it to defend their beliefs... much like Kevin Bacon did in Footloose.

Brainwashed by their surroundings. This is a valuable reminder in a world of... let's say... Christians. They hold ridiculous beliefs that couldn't possibly exist without brainwashing.

And then they conspired to kill Americans. The killing is the bad. The Bible speaks out against that too.

I think Christianity is mostly evil. But I fight for Sweden to keep our churches. I like them. They're symbols of our history. As well as pretty.

I think you are falling off the rails and derailing to some other conversation we aren't having.

 

[ZiprHead]

This is a picture of the Lee Park statue dedication. That large swath of white is the KKK.

View attachment 12193

Cannot see the attachment or is it that white? Anyway, I bet there are "a lot of good people" under those masks.

Huh, it's there when in edit mode.



Let me try it again.