Police body cameras--the biggest test yet

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/20/upshot/a-big-test-of-police-body-cameras-defies-expectations.html

No change in police behavior. The only value is in resolving disputes about misconduct.

 

[LordKiran]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/20/upshot/a-big-test-of-police-body-cameras-defies-expectations.html

No change in police behavior. The only value is in resolving disputes about misconduct.

The fact that behavior remains the same means they don't feel they'll be punished when found out, which isn't exactly an unfounded assumption.

 

[fromderinside]

So policy needs be changed to ensure changes in behavior. Else why have cameras at all. We already know that camera evidence has essentially no effect on punishment for bad or out of policy behavior.

 

[sharon45]

The only value is in resolving disputes about misconduct.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/20/upshot/a-big-test-of-police-body-cameras-defies-expectations.html

No change in police behavior. The only value is in resolving disputes about misconduct.

The fact that behavior remains the same means they don't feel they'll be punished when found out, which isn't exactly an unfounded assumption.

Or there isn't the misbehavior you think there is.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The fact that behavior remains the same means they don't feel they'll be punished when found out, which isn't exactly an unfounded assumption.

Or there isn't the misbehavior you think there is.

The body cameras prove behavior except when they turn them off or don't wear them.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Or there isn't the misbehavior you think there is.

The body cameras prove behavior except when they turn them off or don't wear them.

Exactly. I could care less whether it changes the behavior of thug cops or not. If I have evidence that they broke the law that's what matters, having a record, evidence, of what happened.

I'm actually surprised that there is this expectation that it will change police behavior generally. If I'm a cop doing my job I could care less if there were fifty cameras recording my behavior.

I hope the day comes when every vehicle on the road is required to have an operating dashcam.

 

[TV and credit cards]

The body cameras prove behavior except when they turn them off or don't wear them.

Exactly. I could care less whether it changes the behavior of thug cops or not. If I have evidence that they broke the law that's what matters, having a record, evidence, of what happened.

I'm actually surprised that there is this expectation that it will change police behavior generally. If I'm a cop doing my job I could care less if there were fifty cameras recording my behavior.

I hope the day comes when every vehicle on the road is required to have an operating dashcam.

I do.

Would it not have been a better study to have all cops wear the cameras in an area troubled by police misconduct and compare that data to data before the body cams? It would remove the concern in this study where cops not wearing the cams might have improved their behavior to influence the results.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Or there isn't the misbehavior you think there is.

The body cameras prove behavior except when they turn them off or don't wear them.

That should be studied too, but it appears results are the same whether they wear them or not.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The body cameras prove behavior except when they turn them off or don't wear them.

That should be studied too, but it appears results are the same whether they wear them or not.

The cameras provide documented evidence and therefore have value.

If there ought to be a study, then it should include proper controls and understanding of variables--there are multiple here--to include both officers and civilians being on good behavior in front of the camera and officers controlling what areas of space are viewed by the camera. So perhaps a hidden camera should watch them all interact while the police wear body cameras, but still the proper controls need to be there.

 

[Elixir]

That should be studied too, but it appears results are the same whether they wear them or not.

The cameras provide documented evidence and therefore have value.

If there ought to be a study, then it should include proper controls and understanding of variables--there are multiple here--to include both officers and civilians being on good behavior in front of the camera and officers controlling what areas of space are viewed by the camera. So perhaps a hidden camera should watch them all interact while the police wear body cameras, but still the proper controls need to be there.

Yeah, one has to wonder what goes on when they switch those body cams off... any studies on THAT?

 

[coloradoatheist]

The cameras provide documented evidence and therefore have value.

If there ought to be a study, then it should include proper controls and understanding of variables--there are multiple here--to include both officers and civilians being on good behavior in front of the camera and officers controlling what areas of space are viewed by the camera. So perhaps a hidden camera should watch them all interact while the police wear body cameras, but still the proper controls need to be there.

Yeah, one has to wonder what goes on when they switch those body cams off... any studies on THAT?

That was the thinking of comparing non wearers and wearers. If they were worse without wearing it then it should show up.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah, one has to wonder what goes on when they switch those body cams off... any studies on THAT?

That was the thinking of comparing non wearers and wearers. If they were worse without wearing it then it should show up.

Unless they turn off when they are wearing them.

 

[ronburgundy]

The fact that behavior remains the same means they don't feel they'll be punished when found out, which isn't exactly an unfounded assumption.

Or there isn't the misbehavior you think there is.

Or, since even the cops without cameras knew they were being researched and would be more carefully tracked and evaluated than usual, they too behaved "better". IOW, the study was not "blind" in either direction, so it was a lousy invalid test of the hypothesis.

Then there are the major sources of measurement error in most of their outcome measures. The "use of force" outcome relied entirely upon the officers own filed reports.

The other major outcome was "citizen complaints". What % of citizens mistreated by cops ever file a formal complaint? Given how ineffectual such filings are likely to be, and given very reasonable fear of retribution by the officers, that % is likely minuscule. Thus, the number of complaints per study condition is likely to have little correlation to actual instances of abuse and misconduct.
In fact, those arrested would know if their officer had a camera, because that would be part of the evidence. If you know the officer has a camera, you would be far more likely to file a complaint because at least you might have some evidence and get some justice for it. Which means that the lack of difference in number of complaints is expected if the cops with cameras were objectively better behaved, but they got more complaints when they did engage in misconduct because their was possible evidence to support the complaint. In contrast, if the cameras had no impact of objective behavior of the cops, then cops with cameras would have received more complaints.

Finally, there seems to be a truly fatal flaw to the study. Half the cops in the same districts and on the same beat got cameras or not at random. That means that every cop interaction with more than 1 officer likely had at least one officer with a camera. And of course every cop would know that is the case. So, basically there were body cameras at the over-whelming majority of arrests and stops, and all that actually varied was which officers uniform the camera was attached to.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Yeah, one has to wonder what goes on when they switch those body cams off... any studies on THAT?

That was the thinking of comparing non wearers and wearers. If they were worse without wearing it then it should show up.

but there are areas where body cameras make changes:

• how/where the body camera is worn and applied
• the interaction between the body camera and the police
• the interaction between the civilians and the body camera

So, if civilians are on camera, they may be more polite and more like model citizens. That may cause police to give them less trouble and police to be less inclined to commit abuses against them. Civilians may also make less spurious, inaccurate claims against the police. Meanwhile, the actual wrongdoing by police may become more noticeable. BUT overall, there may appear to be no change in police wrongdoing. And of course this is complicated by police "forgetting" the cameras in events where they know they will be doing wrong or looking away when partner is doing something wrong.

In any case, there are a multitude of studies that show people behave more like they are expected to once cameras are on. So, for all we know, the statistics remain about the same because in the other case of no body cameras, wrongdoings are reported less.

Overall, trying to reduce this whole thing to a single variable is just a big mistake. There needs to be well thought-out study design here before drawing conclusions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The body cameras prove behavior except when they turn them off or don't wear them.

Exactly. I could care less whether it changes the behavior of thug cops or not. If I have evidence that they broke the law that's what matters, having a record, evidence, of what happened.

I'm actually surprised that there is this expectation that it will change police behavior generally. If I'm a cop doing my job I could care less if there were fifty cameras recording my behavior.

I hope the day comes when every vehicle on the road is required to have an operating dashcam.

Yeah, they are cheap enough these days that I think they should be standard features in all new cars. Let the cameras (mount 4 of them) run 24/7, don't write out static images.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The other major outcome was "citizen complaints". What % of citizens mistreated by cops ever file a formal complaint? Given how ineffectual such filings are likely to be, and given very reasonable fear of retribution by the officers, that % is likely minuscule. Thus, the number of complaints per study condition is likely to have little correlation to actual instances of abuse and misconduct.

1) In an area with cameras it makes sense to file the complaint.

2) Cameras vs no-cameras should still show up unless the effect is small.

In fact, those arrested would know if their officer had a camera, because that would be part of the evidence. If you know the officer has a camera, you would be far more likely to file a complaint because at least you might have some evidence and get some justice for it. Which means that the lack of difference in number of complaints is expected if the cops with cameras were objectively better behaved, but they got more complaints when they did engage in misconduct because their was possible evidence to support the complaint. In contrast, if the cameras had no impact of objective behavior of the cops, then cops with cameras would have received more complaints.

But cops with cameras would receive fewer bogus complaints.

 

[Elixir]

Yeah, one has to wonder what goes on when they switch those body cams off... any studies on THAT?

That was the thinking of comparing non wearers and wearers. If they were worse without wearing it then it should show up.

That could be confirmed if there were sufficient cases where an officer was filmed turning off his body-cam, and recorded what then ensued...