White Nationalist Violence

[sharon45]

Words are obviously not harmless, they are just not the same as physical violence. Someone could innocently say "Happy Birthday" to another, and it is like a kick, because the receiver is reminded of being one year older.

Great point! Entirely in the ballpark as advocating genocide. Why do you waste your time?

I don't waste my time, especially here.

 

[bilby]

Great point! Entirely in the ballpark as advocating genocide. Why do you waste your time?

I don't waste my time, especially here.

Yeah, right.

 

[sharon45]

I don't waste my time, especially here.

Yeah, right.

Again, how is this wasting my time? Is there some grand predetermined list of activities that I am supposed to be engaged in?

Which is a lot of where this kind of violence seeps from in the first place. Just self-appointed people in gangs pretending that they know a lot better than mostly unattached individuals.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Correct. A Nazi wants to murder a Jew. A Libertarian supports that Nazi right up until the Jew is murdered, and after the Jew is murdered, you shrug your shoulders and walk away with a smug sense of greatness and condemn the murder of the Jew.

Good ole Libertarianism... the political belief that their beliefs don't have consequences.

Earlier you were complaining about strawmen. Fascinating.

Libertarianism opposes murder. We go beyond saying murder is bad and actually advocate that those who murder be punished. And unlike you, we even advocate that the Jew has the right to adequate self defense. The rights that libertarianism supports include the right to life, but not the right to be shielded from bad words.

You cannot oppose murder while also being opposed to PREVENTING murder. You could truthfully say that Libertarians discourage murder, but actively seeking to prevent it requires denying certain rights to would-be murderers.

So a man who stands in a public place and says ten times a day for a year "Jason Harvestdancer is a blight on our community and must be killed!" is probably exceeding his right of free speech; if and when somebody listening to his ranting finally takes his advice and murders you, the speaker in this case is criminally liable for contributing to your death.

You have a right to NOT live in fear because someone in your community is inciting hatred and encouraging violence against you. Your right to safety supersedes MY right to free speech, because safety is more important than freedom of expression. So to the extent that my speech does not impinge on your safety, my speech is perfectly free.

The fascinating part is that 99% of the country has a negative opinion of the Nazis. This negative opinion ranges from dislike to hatred. The best way you can come up with to argue against them is censorship. Are your arguments really so weak you can't come up with anything better than censorship to oppose a group that 99% of the country opposes?

The 1% that don't oppose them still amounts to around four million people. If you successfully convince four million people to perform an act of violence -- or at least, be complicit in violence -- then you are contributing to a hazardous environment that is potentially unsafe for the target of that violence.

Again: it's a matter of priorities. The right of personal safety is superior to the right of freedom of expression, so if and when those rights come into conflict, safety wins by default.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Earlier you were complaining about strawmen. Fascinating.

Libertarianism opposes murder. We go beyond saying murder is bad and actually advocate that those who murder be punished. And unlike you, we even advocate that the Jew has the right to adequate self defense. The rights that libertarianism supports include the right to life, but not the right to be shielded from bad words.

You cannot oppose murder while also being opposed to PREVENTING murder.

Yeah. But you don't need to suspend the first amendment in order to do so, the way you advocate.

You could truthfully say that Libertarians discourage murder, but actively seeking to prevent it requires denying certain rights to would-be murderers.

Discourage and oppose, because the freedom we deny is the freedom to murder. That's how we protect the right to life.

You have a right to NOT live in fear because someone in your community is inciting hatred and encouraging violence against you.

Show me on the doll where the words hurt you.

Your right to safety supersedes MY right to free speech, because safety is more important than freedom of expression.

Don't try to put your authoritarianism on me. I defend even for your freedom of speech, for the same reason and the same way I defend the freedom of speech of racists. You're both authoritarians, and you are free to advocate a totalitarian government. Just don't mistake my defending your right to advocate a totalitarian government with supporting a totalitarian government. I can defend speech I find abhorrent, something that confuses you.

The fascinating part is that 99% of the country has a negative opinion of the Nazis. This negative opinion ranges from dislike to hatred. The best way you can come up with to argue against them is censorship. Are your arguments really so weak you can't come up with anything better than censorship to oppose a group that 99% of the country opposes?

The 1% that don't oppose them still amounts to around four million people. If you successfully convince four million people to perform an act of violence -- or at least, be complicit in violence -- then you are contributing to a hazardous environment that is potentially unsafe for the target of that violence.

I understated the number. It is more like 99.999%. And by actively encouraging censorship you are contributing to a hazardous environment that is potentially unsafe for the target of their violence. Yes, those who convince others to act violently are complicit in violence, but that doesn't mean we suspend the first amendment.

Again: it's a matter of priorities. The right of personal safety is superior to the right of freedom of expression, so if and when those rights come into conflict, safety wins by default.

Show me on the doll where the words hurt you. If you can't you aren't unsafe.

 

[LordKiran]

Yeah, right.

Again, how is this wasting my time? Is there some grand predetermined list of activities that I am supposed to be engaged in?

Which is a lot of where this kind of violence seeps from in the first place. Just self-appointed people in gangs pretending that they know a lot better than mostly unattached individuals.

Typically time wasted is considered time spent in unproductive ways.

More literally, only you can determine if your time is wasted or not, so the statement "I don't waste my time." is more of a statement on your frame of mind than anything else.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[LordKiran]

View attachment 12902

You know what would really complete that image to make it credible? Some sources.

 

[Arctish]

View attachment 12902

You know what would really complete that image to make it credible? Some sources.

The girl at the top left is Nabra Hassanen. Her murder might not have been racially or religiously motivated. It appears the man who killed her is a sexual predator.

The woman next to her is Heather Heyer, who was murdered by a Nazi at Charlottesville.

The next two are Ricky John Best and Taliesin Myrddin Namkai Meche, who were fatally stabbed while defending two 16 year old girls from a man shouting anti-Muslim hate speech and threatening them because one of them was wearing a hijab.

The last guy on the top row is Richard W. Collins, who was stabbed to death in an unprovoked attack by a member of a group that calls itself Alt Reich: Nation.

The first three people in the middle row are Rev. Clementa Pinckney, Suzie Jackson, and Rev. Sharonda Singleton. Under them, in the bottom row, are Depayne Middleton, Rev Daniel Simmons Sr, and Tywanza Sanders. They were murdered by Dylann Roof at the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston. Three other victims (Myra Thompson, Ethel Lance, and Cynthia Hurd) aren't pictured.

 

[LordKiran]

You know what would really complete that image to make it credible? Some sources.

The girl at the top left is Nabra Hassanen. Her murder might not have been racially or religiously motivated. It appears the man who killed her is a sexual predator.

The woman next to her is Heather Heyer, who was murdered by a Nazi at Charlottesville.

The next two are Ricky John Best and Taliesin Myrddin Namkai Meche, who were fatally stabbed while defending two 16 year old girls from a man shouting anti-Muslim hate speech and threatening them because one of them was wearing a hijab.

The last guy on the top row is Richard W. Collins, who was stabbed to death in an unprovoked attack by a member of a group that calls itself Alt Reich: Nation.

The first three people in the middle row are Rev. Clementa Pinckney, Suzie Jackson, Rev. Sharonda Singleton. under them, in the bottom row, are Depayne Middleton, Rev Daniel Simmons Sr, Tywanza Sanders. They were murdered by Dylann Roof at the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston. Three other victim (Myra Thompson, Ethel Lance, and Cynthia Hurd) aren't pictured.

These are all isolated incidents (Then again, the same would be true for any violence dealt by an individual antifa member) There's nothing connecting these individual acts of violence. The truth is we're sort of past the point of having unified political organizations with formal heads. People don't join parties now. They join movements.

 

[Arctish]

The girl at the top left is Nabra Hassanen. Her murder might not have been racially or religiously motivated. It appears the man who killed her is a sexual predator.

The woman next to her is Heather Heyer, who was murdered by a Nazi at Charlottesville.

The next two are Ricky John Best and Taliesin Myrddin Namkai Meche, who were fatally stabbed while defending two 16 year old girls from a man shouting anti-Muslim hate speech and threatening them because one of them was wearing a hijab.

The last guy on the top row is Richard W. Collins, who was stabbed to death in an unprovoked attack by a member of a group that calls itself Alt Reich: Nation.

The first three people in the middle row are Rev. Clementa Pinckney, Suzie Jackson, Rev. Sharonda Singleton. under them, in the bottom row, are Depayne Middleton, Rev Daniel Simmons Sr, Tywanza Sanders. They were murdered by Dylann Roof at the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston. Three other victim (Myra Thompson, Ethel Lance, and Cynthia Hurd) aren't pictured.

These are all isolated incidents (Then again, the same would be true for any violence dealt by an individual antifa member) There's nothing connecting these individual acts of violence. The truth is we're sort of past the point of having unified political organizations with formal heads. People don't join parties now. They join movements.

I don't think anyone has been arguing that the killers are all part of a single, unified, and coordinated entity. Nazis and the KKK have many similarities but they're not the same outfit. People are arguing that the movement to which these killers belong, commonly referred to as the alt-right, is dangerous and growing.

I honestly don't know if there's been an uptick in rightwing violence lately but if sure feels that way.

 

[ronburgundy]

How common today is white nationalist violence? Do they actually go around attacking people? Is this a huge issue?

Depends if you count the many white nationalists who happen to be wearing police uniforms.

Your run-of-the-mill civilian white supremacists is probably more likely to engage in violence against their wife and kids than a political adversary. Political violence in the streets is typically engaged in by groups that have little political power and thus cannot force their views via the use of government. White nationalists have massive influence in Congress, and over most State and local governments south of the Mason-Dixon line, and now have an ally in the White House. So, they have little need to use street violence to advance their political cause when they can get Presidents, Senators, governors, and law enforcement to do it for them.

However, their ideology is inherently one that promotes use of violence to achieve political ends. Not only are most of them devout Christians who worship a deity that commands genocidal violence against all infidels, but they desire political ends that can only be achieved by violence and are fueled by hatred which inherently increases the odds of violence. Violence is inherent to any desire to enforce either separation or unequal power between racial groups, which is the foundation of white nationalist (aka alt-right) ideology.

This is why their is such strong overlap between White nationalism and militia groups who are ever-ready to engage in violence should their control of government sufficiently decline.

Their core ideology and disposition also makes them easily triggered to violence whenever they encounter opposition, as evidenced by the murderous violence they initiated in Virginia, or the 4 guys who shot and murdered BLM protesters in MN, not even as a reaction but a pre-mediated plan where they arrived with guns, masks, and bullet-proof vests. Almost any gathering of white nationalists means heavily armed emotionally unstable and irrational people whose core identity and world view is based in anger and hatred of most of the human species because they have a darker skin tone. That makes pre-emptive law enforcement measures a wise idea regardless of any expected counter protests.

 

[sharon45]

Again, how is this wasting my time? Is there some grand predetermined list of activities that I am supposed to be engaged in?

Which is a lot of where this kind of violence seeps from in the first place. Just self-appointed people in gangs pretending that they know a lot better than mostly unattached individuals.

Typically time wasted is considered time spent in unproductive ways.

Uh, I think I have known this ever since I was a child.

More literally, only you can determine if your time is wasted or not, so the statement "I don't waste my time." is more of a statement on your frame of mind than anything else.

See above.

 

[sharon45]

They join movements.

In the hate movements, people get targeted and conditioned, like this murderer Dylann Roof.