What does one Do in Heaven - a few answers

[Ramaraksha]

I asked this question a while ago on forums like these, message boards etc and have received answers well that are disappointing but expected

1. We will find out when we get there - (in other words, I have no clue)
2. We Pray, We Sing - (yep 24 hours a day, 7 days a week 52 weeks a year? I guess they go around in shifts)
3. We will be working hard, don't worry - (again, in other words, have no clue)
4. There is no heaven - we will be down on the ground until the blessed man comes down to earth - (like zombies coming out of the ground - that would be real scary)
5. We will be sent down here, like ghosts, we will be advising people (not sure i want advice from a Joe schmo who spent his life drinking and gambling, but when asked if the speaker has one and what is his adviser's name and life details, they clam up)

What is disappointing and frankly scary is that these words are coming out of the mouths of quite intelligent and educated people who are holding high-level jobs, running companies, making important decisions that involve a lot of thought and high education and intelligence & yet when it comes to the concept of Heaven something crazy happens

The amazing ability of religion to brainwash the best of minds is frankly amazing to see and behold. If this wasn't so scary, i would be laughing out loud but i fear that if climate change is real, we will be looking at a lot more mass killings in the name of religion and we know from past experience that such killings would be justified

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Also, is there a meritocracy in Heaven? Like, if Frank only gives a half-assed effort in praising God and the songs he plays on his harp are all somewhat derivative and boring, do they stick him on a bumpy and uncomfortable cloud where he doesn't have a good view of the tortured souls being burnt in Hell?

 

[rousseau]

When a person needs to justify their beliefs there needs to be an answer, no matter how incomprehensible. If they admitted they didn't know, that would be the first step toward skepticism.

 

[Underseer]

Just as long as you keep in mind that mythicism is not the consensus of the relevant field.

We can't get mad at creationists for ignoring the consensus opinion, them so the same thing ourselves just because it happens to be rhetorically convenient.

Mythicism is so unnecessary because the consensus opinion is more than enough to bury Christianity. All you do when you bring it up is give the Christians more chances to detract from the main discussion about whether or not Christianity is true and open up an endless debate a whether or not mythicism is true.

If you're going to do this, c then at least read things from someone representing the consensus so that you are getting information from both sides. If you only read mythicist sources, then you are no different from a creationist who only gets information from creationist sources.

 

[rousseau]

I always find it interesting how militant Americans can be about crushing religion.

Not totally unexpected given the climate in the US, but I'm more interested in learning about the people who follow religion, than undermining their belief in it.

In it's own way asking Christians about heaven is a fascinating exercise to see and hear how they justify it. These are real people talking sincerely about an imaginary room in the sky. To each their own, but I'd rather hear them speak for an hour about that then try to convince them it doesn't exist.

This year I've also taken a bit of time to study African and North American indigenous religions. Just crazy interesting learning about how these people experienced the world.

 

[Ramaraksha]

I always find it interesting how militant Americans can be about crushing religion.
Not totally unexpected given the climate in the US, but I'm more interested in learning about the people who follow religion, than undermining their belief in it.
In it's own way asking Christians about heaven is a fascinating exercise to see and hear how they justify it. These are real people talking sincerely about an imaginary room in the sky. To each their own, but I'd rather hear them speak for an hour about that then try to convince them it doesn't exist.
This year I've also taken a bit of time to study African and North American indigenous religions. Just crazy interesting learning about how these people experienced the world.

This may be a case of misreading the issue - if the teacher asks a math question and you answer "the result", that's not an answer is it? Asking a scientist about God & Heaven works the same way, but in reverse - Science deals with facts, not emotion, not feelings and so naturally most scientists say there is no evidence that God exists and that upsets religious people

And then we have pesky people like Galileo and Darwin writing books that blow apart what is written in the Bible and that also upsets the religious people and we have not yet gotten to Atheists yet

Primitive people came up with concepts of God, Heaven and Hell that made sense to them - they lived under brutal kings who demanded obedience and loyalty in return for their generosity and naturally the ancients created Gods and Heavens with what they knew - a King-like God sitting in the heavens dishing out favors to the obedient and loyal

For how long are we supposed to blindly support such ideas? To think nothing should change in the modern age is not being sensible

 

[rousseau]

I always find it interesting how militant Americans can be about crushing religion.
Not totally unexpected given the climate in the US, but I'm more interested in learning about the people who follow religion, than undermining their belief in it.
In it's own way asking Christians about heaven is a fascinating exercise to see and hear how they justify it. These are real people talking sincerely about an imaginary room in the sky. To each their own, but I'd rather hear them speak for an hour about that then try to convince them it doesn't exist.
This year I've also taken a bit of time to study African and North American indigenous religions. Just crazy interesting learning about how these people experienced the world.

This may be a case of misreading the issue - if the teacher asks a math question and you answer "the result", that's not an answer is it? Asking a scientist about God & Heaven works the same way, but in reverse - Science deals with facts, not emotion, not feelings and so naturally most scientists say there is no evidence that God exists and that upsets religious people

And then we have pesky people like Galileo and Darwin writing books that blow apart what is written in the Bible and that also upsets the religious people and we have not yet gotten to Atheists yet

Primitive people came up with concepts of God, Heaven and Hell that made sense to them - they lived under brutal kings who demanded obedience and loyalty in return for their generosity and naturally the ancients created Gods and Heavens with what they knew - a King-like God sitting in the heavens dishing out favors to the obedient and loyal

For how long are we supposed to blindly support such ideas? To think nothing should change in the modern age is not being sensible

Oh, I understand the issue and expect that it should and will change, but as an individual I don't feel a burning desire to dissolve people's illusions. To each their own.

It's probably a cultural thing. Canada has a lot of religious people still, but we're very a-religious. We don't talk about it.

For me, personally, I find it more interesting learning about people who believe. But over time the problem will resolve itself.

 

[Learner]

I asked this question a while ago on forums like these, message boards etc and have received answers well that are disappointing but expected

1. We will find out when we get there - (in other words, I have no clue)
2. We Pray, We Sing - (yep 24 hours a day, 7 days a week 52 weeks a year? I guess they go around in shifts)
3. We will be working hard, don't worry - (again, in other words, have no clue)
4. There is no heaven - we will be down on the ground until the blessed man comes down to earth - (like zombies coming out of the ground - that would be real scary)
5. We will be sent down here, like ghosts, we will be advising people (not sure i want advice from a Joe schmo who spent his life drinking and gambling, but when asked if the speaker has one and what is his adviser's name and life details, they clam up)

Well it seems you can make the conclusion and sum up by now to say:
"no-one has a clue".

So where will you expand the argument from here? What is your next debating phase? Theists will I'm sure, eagerly engage when you do ... but in the mean time ....

What is disappointing and frankly scary is that these words are coming out of the mouths of quite intelligent and educated people who are holding high-level jobs, running companies, making important decisions that involve a lot of thought and high education and intelligence & yet when it comes to the concept of Heaven something crazy happens

The amazing ability of religion to brainwash the best of minds is frankly amazing to see and behold. If this wasn't so scary, i would be laughing out loud but i fear that if climate change is real, we will be looking at a lot more mass killings in the name of religion and we know from past experience that such killings would be justified

Sorry you have that opinion.


Eagerly to engage ... one day soon.

Learner

 

[Ramaraksha]

Well it seems you can make the conclusion and sum up by now to say:
"no-one has a clue".
So where will you expand the argument from here? What is your next debating phase?
Learner

This isn't that hard is it? I am asking a simple question - but again when it comes to religion - i feel it kills brain cells? does it?
Heaven is a conversion ploy - religions use it to push conversions - "our Guy will get you heaven, those other guys won't" or "You get heaven only if you follow our Guy. If you don't you get hell"
And my questions reveal that the whole concept is a sham - just a fantasy that does not make any sense

 

[Underseer]

I always find it interesting how militant Americans can be about crushing religion.

Not totally unexpected given the climate in the US, but I'm more interested in learning about the people who follow religion, than undermining their belief in it.

In it's own way asking Christians about heaven is a fascinating exercise to see and hear how they justify it. These are real people talking sincerely about an imaginary room in the sky. To each their own, but I'd rather hear them speak for an hour about that then try to convince them it doesn't exist.

This year I've also taken a bit of time to study African and North American indigenous religions. Just crazy interesting learning about how these people experienced the world.

People with religious belief are doing real damage in the world.

I'm the first to say that converting theists to atheists won't necessarily make things better if we don't address the sloppy thinking that makes religion possible in the first place, but in the short term, religion helped Trump as much as the Russians did, and it inspires ISIS. If you want to learn more about theism, there are plenty of books you can read.

 

[Shake]

I always find it interesting how militant Americans can be about crushing religion.

Not totally unexpected given the climate in the US, but I'm more interested in learning about the people who follow religion, than undermining their belief in it.

In it's own way asking Christians about heaven is a fascinating exercise to see and hear how they justify it. These are real people talking sincerely about an imaginary room in the sky. To each their own, but I'd rather hear them speak for an hour about that then try to convince them it doesn't exist.

This year I've also taken a bit of time to study African and North American indigenous religions. Just crazy interesting learning about how these people experienced the world.

People with religious belief are doing real damage in the world.

I'm the first to say that converting theists to atheists won't necessarily make things better if we don't address the sloppy thinking that makes religion possible in the first place, but in the short term, religion helped Trump as much as the Russians did, and it inspires ISIS. If you want to learn more about theism, there are plenty of books you can read.

I'd like to add on to what Underseer said here in response to rousseau: unlike in places like Europe, here in the States we have to be somewhat militant about "crushing religion" as we have plenty of religious folks actively working to "crush" us, so it's only natural for secularists here to fight back, and to do so strongly and vocally. Yes, there are those who go about it poorly, but many of us feel we can't just take it lying down or adopt a more passive attitude, lest we get steamrolled by those wishing to impose their dogma on everyone else. I mean, look at who this administration put in charge of education for goodness sake! And to think that someone like Roy Moore has a legit shot at a Senate seat just highlights our need to remain vigilant against the influence of religion.

 

[rousseau]

No doubt, I understand the climate in the US well enough, and the need for it.

Just always a bit shocking thinking of the cultural difference between it and other modern countries. In Canada religion is almost completely benign and so I have the luxury of looking at it as an artifact of the past rather than something I need to confront on a daily basis.

Just mentioning that, in that light, religion can be interesting in it's own way. Although if I had Christians knocking at my door weekly I'd be a little more serious about it.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Heaven is a hologram. It is where whatever you wish to happen becomes real, but nothing changes. So heaven is the same for everyone but never the same for two people.

For example, remember that enemy soldier you wanted to skewer? Well, in heaven you get to skewer him, and all the gratification you can imagine is yours. And if you want to skewer him everyday for eternity you get to do that. And if eventually after eons of barbarity you wish to reach across the divide and embrace him, you get to do that too. If you wish to pull a Paddock and bump stock to death crowds of people just have at it.

And if someone wishes to skewer you or machine gun you that will happen as well but you won't experience the pain because you won't be there. However, if you're into the whole pain thing that too happens instantly with your desires.

Heaven is simply hedonism without limits. Hey, you earned it.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Heaven is a hologram. It is where whatever you wish to happen becomes real, but nothing changes. So heaven is the same for everyone but never the same for two people.

For example, remember that enemy soldier you wanted to skewer? Well, in heaven you get to skewer him, and all the gratification you can imagine is yours. And if you want to skewer him everyday for eternity you get to do that. And if eventually after eons of barbarity you wish to reach across the divide and embrace him, you get to do that too. If you wish to pull a Paddock and bump stock to death crowds of people just have at it.

And if someone wishes to skewer you or machine gun you that will happen as well but you won't experience the pain because you won't be there. However, if you're into the whole pain thing that too happens instantly with your desires.

Heaven is simply hedonism without limits. Hey, you earned it.

But you're not actually skewering him. He's off in his own version of Heaven skewering you for all eternity but neither of you actually gets to cause pain to the person you want to stab. It's play acting and that's only fun for a few millennia at most.

You can't actually do things to other people unless they also consent to it. That's a lot of hedonism to be sure, but it's like having an eternal frat party but when a girl passes out in the back room, your options are limited to putting a blanket over her and hoping she has a nice nap (which she will, because she's napping in Heaven).

 

[sharon45]

She doesn't need a blanket in Heaven.

 

[Sarpedon]

I find Dante's conception of Heaven to be the most logical and satisfying: Everyone is in a permanent state of religious ecstasy, as one gets with the most profound prayer and hymn singing, within which time is essentially meaningless, so no problem with boredom. Some people (the more pious generally) are capable of greater religious ecstasy than others. Everyone in heaven is equal in that they are all as happy as they can be, but the pious are elevated by being capable of being happier than others. This explanation manages to dispose of all these earth bound objections,

 

[Tom Sawyer]

She doesn't need a blanket in Heaven.

Just because one does not need a blanket doesn't mean that one does not want a blanket. Since all of her wants in Heaven would be fully realized, my placing a blanket over her would be me acting as an agent of divine will to give her what she wants.

- - - Updated - - -

I find Dante's conception of Heaven to be the most logical and satisfying: Everyone is in a permanent state of religious ecstasy, as one gets with the most profound prayer and hymn singing, within which time is essentially meaningless, so no problem with boredom. Some people (the more pious generally) are capable of greater religious ecstasy than others. Everyone in heaven is equal in that they are all as happy as they can be, but the pious are elevated by being capable of being happier than others. This explanation manages to dispose of all these earth bound objections,

So, Heaven is an opium den?

 

[sharon45]

Just because one does not need a blanket doesn't mean that one does not want a blanket. Since all of her wants in Heaven would be fully realized, my placing a blanket over her would be me acting as an agent of divine will to give her what she wants.

Well, Heaven is about God, without room for some dim bulb's mere wants, especially when there is no need.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Just because one does not need a blanket doesn't mean that one does not want a blanket. Since all of her wants in Heaven would be fully realized, my placing a blanket over her would be me acting as an agent of divine will to give her what she wants.

Well, Heaven is about God, without room for some dim bulb's mere wants, especially when there is no need.

So, you're saying that the entire point of Heaven is for all of us to be utterly irrelevant for all eternity?

 

[OLDMAN]

Well, Heaven is about God, without room for some dim bulb's mere wants, especially when there is no need.

So, you're saying that the entire point of Heaven is for all of us to be utterly irrelevant for all eternity?

Like Goldfish in a bowl...with a three second memory? I'll take death.