What is the actual free will humans have?

[Subsymbolic]

I have more education in brain physiology than you.

Really? Do you now? So what exactly are your qualifications and from where?

I have more understanding of the current research than you.

Brilliant, so who would you say is doing this current research and what form does it take.

All you can do is ape the ideas of others without any understanding of what you're saying.

You think saying the magic words "autonomous consciousness" is supposed to mean something. It doesn't.

YOu need to stop muttering. Adding a random insult after every comment really doesn't help anyone, especially you.

 

[untermensche]

You cannot mutter in writing. Perhaps a dictionary might help you.

To mutter: to say something in a low or barely audible voice, especially in dissatisfaction or irritation

If you are hearing voices then you should see your doctor.

I am writing something very clear.

Objections to an "autonomous consciousness" are meaningless in the absence of any understanding of what consciousness is or what a thought is.

There is no magic formula that can take one from brains are made of cells to the consciousness cannot act in an autonomous manner.

It is merely one person's serious delusion.

 

[DBT]

I have more education in brain physiology than you.

I have more understanding of the current research than you.

All you can do is ape the ideas of others without any understanding of what you're saying.

You think saying the magic words "autonomous consciousness" is supposed to mean something. It doesn't.

You have no idea. You are blowing your own Trumpet. If you had any understanding of the research you'd know that your belief in autonomous consciousness is not supported by the research, the evidence or the vast majority of researchers.....just a small percentage of eccentrics who cling to magical thinking.

 

[Subsymbolic]

You cannot mutter in writing. Perhaps a dictionary might help you.

To mutter: to say something in a low or barely audible voice, especially in dissatisfaction or irritation

If you are hearing voices then you should see your doctor.

I am writing something very clear.

Objections to an "autonomous consciousness" are meaningless in the absence of any understanding of what consciousness is or what a thought is.

There is no magic formula that can take one from brains are made of cells to the consciousness cannot act in an autonomous manner.

It is merely one person's serious delusion.

I would explain about figurative language, but what’s the point.

However, you made a claim about your relative qualifications. Back it up please.

 

[fromderinside]

Let me frame Subsymbolic's request in the above post a little more concretely for you untermenche.

I have more education in brain physiology than you.

I have more understanding of the current research than you.

All you can do is ape the ideas of others without any understanding of what you're saying.

You think saying the magic words "autonomous consciousness" is supposed to mean something. It doesn't.

 

[untermensche]

You will have to take my word for it.

You cannot prove me wrong with your bad interpretations.

 

[Subsymbolic]

You will have to take my word for it.

You cannot prove me wrong with your bad interpretations.

I don't think that's quite good enough.

You have claimed that:

I have more education in brain physiology than you.

I have more understanding of the current research than you.

Those are two clear empirical claims. Back them up with evidence.

Or just bluster...

 

[untermensche]

If you present any idea I will comment on it.

The idea I am refuting is the idea that it is possible to determine that consciousness does not have autonomy.

To determine whether consciousness has autonomy requires knowing what it is. In detail.

It is up to you.

Do you want to discuss my claims you can't prove wrong or ideas?

 

[Juma]

If you present any idea I will comment on it.

The idea I am refuting is the idea that it is possible to determine that consciousness does not have autonomy.

To determine whether consciousness has autonomy requires knowing what it is. In detail.

It is up to you.

Do you want to discuss my claims you can't prove wrong or ideas?

Autonomy? To test for autonomy it suffices to check if the brain is necessary. It is. QED.

 

[untermensche]

That tells you nothing.

Is it possible to act on decisions made in the mind using ideas?

How is that reflexive?

 

[fromderinside]

That would be true if you had no senses. If there are sense and effect in a system there is the connection between the two for there to be a system.. The brain, the QED you suggest tells you nothing, is a system providing the necessary components for a NS.

 

[DBT]

To determine whether consciousness has autonomy requires knowing what it is. In detail.

It is up to you.

You have claimed that is is consciousness itself that makes decisions and directs the brain, which you said is dumb, that it is consciousness that raises your arm at will, etc, which is an implicit claim for autonomy of consciousness.

 

[untermensche]

To determine whether consciousness has autonomy requires knowing what it is. In detail.

It is up to you.

You have claimed that is is consciousness itself that makes decisions and directs the brain, which you said is dumb, that it is consciousness that raises your arm at will, etc, which is an implicit claim for autonomy of consciousness.

I have said the clear and consistent evidence is of autonomy. The evidence of direct experience.

And it would take stronger clearer evidence to dispute it.

Not flimsy nothingness.

 

[DBT]

To determine whether consciousness has autonomy requires knowing what it is. In detail.

It is up to you.

You have claimed that is is consciousness itself that makes decisions and directs the brain, which you said is dumb, that it is consciousness that raises your arm at will, etc, which is an implicit claim for autonomy of consciousness.

I have said the clear and consistent evidence is of autonomy. The evidence of direct experience.

And it would take stronger clearer evidence to dispute it.

Not flimsy nothingness.

That is your set of claims. Which ignores research ,experiments, case studies, evidence and the analysis of researchers. Which is not a flimsy nothing, but a very substantial something, a body of information that contradicts your subjective experience based conclusions.

 

[untermensche]

What you describe is what I call flimsy claims.

Science does not even know what consciousness is.

It is a completely unexplained phenomena.

The ability to experience.

Which anybody with one logical brain cell understands requires both a thing that can experience things and the things it can experience. Two things are required for there to be experience.

This cannot be disputed.

If there is something that says "I experience" then that is indisputable.

"I" refers to consciousness, not the brain. To make it refer to the brain is impossible.

 

[fromderinside]

I give you mirror cells. They process stuff and they reflect processed stuff in others. All for the same small price of about 3 billion years of evolution.

Don't thank me. Thank Neuroscience. At least read it.

 

[DBT]

What you call 'flimsy claims' being an opinion based on your own beliefs and not something that is objective. Do you think researchers believe their own work to be flimsy? Decades of research and nothing learned? I don't think so.

 

[untermensche]

What you call 'flimsy claims' being an opinion based on your own beliefs and not something that is objective. Do you think researchers believe their own work to be flimsy? Decades of research and nothing learned? I don't think so.

Based on my understandings.

I understand that consciousness, the ability to experience as a human experiences, is a completely unexplained phenomena. Nobody understands how it happens.

Some don't quite understand this.

 

[Subsymbolic]

To determine whether consciousness has autonomy requires knowing what it is. In detail.

It is up to you.

You have claimed that is is consciousness itself that makes decisions and directs the brain, which you said is dumb, that it is consciousness that raises your arm at will, etc, which is an implicit claim for autonomy of consciousness.

I have said the clear and consistent evidence is of autonomy. The evidence of direct experience.

And it would take stronger clearer evidence to dispute it.

Not flimsy nothingness.

What exactly are you saying has autonomy again?

 

[DBT]

What you call 'flimsy claims' being an opinion based on your own beliefs and not something that is objective. Do you think researchers believe their own work to be flimsy? Decades of research and nothing learned? I don't think so.

Based on my understandings.

I understand that consciousness, the ability to experience as a human experiences, is a completely unexplained phenomena. Nobody understands how it happens.

Some don't quite understand this.

Some happen to ignore the means by which conscious experience is being formed and generated.....this being the field of study in relation to the brain.