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West Bank - whose is it?

They've never tried peace.

Now, hang on. You claim "there has been some fire from the west bank" but we all know not much and not often. So we have the west bank (not firing much - trying peace most of the time) and the Gaza firing all the time. How is that working out for each? The west bank is still getting additional territory taken via settlements, the Gazans drove the settlements out.

Trying peace seems to be... not working out very effectively. Perhaps it's not a language that Israel really understands?
 
They've never tried peace.

Now, hang on. You claim "there has been some fire from the west bank" but we all know not much and not often. So we have the west bank (not firing much - trying peace most of the time) and the Gaza firing all the time. How is that working out for each? The west bank is still getting additional territory taken via settlements, the Gazans drove the settlements out.

Trying peace seems to be... not working out very effectively. Perhaps it's not a language that Israel really understands?
Peace, violent resistance, it's all the same for the Palestinians. Israel continues to expand and oppress.

But what they have found is that when they are violent they get noticed and have a voice.

But when they are peaceful and still being slowly crushed nobody notices. Nobody seems to take notice of Israeli oppression unless the Palestinians violently resist in some way.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank

Read the history and legal status sections.

'...In the same vein the Israeli Supreme Court stated in the 2004 Beit Sourik case that:
The general point of departure of all parties – which is also our point of departure – is that Israel holds the area in belligerent occupation (occupatio bellica)......The authority of the military commander flows from the provisions of public international law regarding belligerent occupation. These rules are established principally in the Regulations Concerning the Laws and Customs of War on Land, The Hague, 18 October 1907 [hereinafter – the Hague Regulations]. These regulations reflect customary international law. The military commander’s authority is also anchored in IV Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War 1949.[10][34
The executive branch of the Israeli government, through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, has defined the West Bank as disputed territory, whose status can only be determined through negotiations. ...'

Israel justifies occupation by right of inquest in a war. It is a military oupation under military rule.

Arabs attacked and they occupy captured belligerent territory..
 
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They've never tried peace.

Now, hang on. You claim "there has been some fire from the west bank" but we all know not much and not often. So we have the west bank (not firing much - trying peace most of the time) and the Gaza firing all the time. How is that working out for each? The west bank is still getting additional territory taken via settlements, the Gazans drove the settlements out.

Trying peace seems to be... not working out very effectively. Perhaps it's not a language that Israel really understands?

You're not describing peace, you're describing a lower level war.

- - - Updated - - -

Peace, violent resistance, it's all the same for the Palestinians. Israel continues to expand and oppress.

But what they have found is that when they are violent they get noticed and have a voice.

But when they are peaceful and still being slowly crushed nobody notices. Nobody seems to take notice of Israeli oppression unless the Palestinians violently resist in some way.

Continuing to repeat that expansion myth doesn't make it true.
 
Now, hang on. You claim "there has been some fire from the west bank" but we all know not much and not often. So we have the west bank (not firing much - trying peace most of the time) and the Gaza firing all the time. How is that working out for each? The west bank is still getting additional territory taken via settlements, the Gazans drove the settlements out.

Trying peace seems to be... not working out very effectively. Perhaps it's not a language that Israel really understands?

You're not describing peace, you're describing a lower level war.

You're dodging. And how is ANY DE-ESCALATION AT ALL working out for the West Bank Palestinians?

Peace, violent resistance, it's all the same for the Palestinians. Israel continues to expand and oppress.

But what they have found is that when they are violent they get noticed and have a voice.

But when they are peaceful and still being slowly crushed nobody notices. Nobody seems to take notice of Israeli oppression unless the Palestinians violently resist in some way.

Continuing to repeat that expansion myth doesn't make it true.

What's the expansion myth? Is it a myth that settlements are being built outside of Israel?
 
You're not describing peace, you're describing a lower level war.

You're dodging. And how is ANY DE-ESCALATION AT ALL working out for the West Bank Palestinians?

Peace, violent resistance, it's all the same for the Palestinians. Israel continues to expand and oppress.

But what they have found is that when they are violent they get noticed and have a voice.

But when they are peaceful and still being slowly crushed nobody notices. Nobody seems to take notice of Israeli oppression unless the Palestinians violently resist in some way.

Continuing to repeat that expansion myth doesn't make it true.

What's the expansion myth? Is it a myth that settlements are being built outside of Israel?

The borders haven't moved in a decade other than the Gaza pullout. I find it hard to imagine how you can have expansion with no change in the border.
 
Peace, violent resistance, it's all the same for the Palestinians. Israel continues to expand and oppress.

But what they have found is that when they are violent they get noticed and have a voice.

But when they are peaceful and still being slowly crushed nobody notices. Nobody seems to take notice of Israeli oppression unless the Palestinians violently resist in some way.

Continuing to repeat that expansion myth doesn't make it true.
It's only a myth to those who were born yesterday.
 
You're dodging. And how is ANY DE-ESCALATION AT ALL working out for the West Bank Palestinians?

Peace, violent resistance, it's all the same for the Palestinians. Israel continues to expand and oppress.

But what they have found is that when they are violent they get noticed and have a voice.

But when they are peaceful and still being slowly crushed nobody notices. Nobody seems to take notice of Israeli oppression unless the Palestinians violently resist in some way.

Continuing to repeat that expansion myth doesn't make it true.

What's the expansion myth? Is it a myth that settlements are being built outside of Israel?

The borders haven't moved in a decade other than the Gaza pullout. I find it hard to imagine how you can have expansion with no change in the border.
What border? Israel has never defined its borders.
 
You're dodging. And how is ANY DE-ESCALATION AT ALL working out for the West Bank Palestinians?

Peace, violent resistance, it's all the same for the Palestinians. Israel continues to expand and oppress.

But what they have found is that when they are violent they get noticed and have a voice.

But when they are peaceful and still being slowly crushed nobody notices. Nobody seems to take notice of Israeli oppression unless the Palestinians violently resist in some way.

Continuing to repeat that expansion myth doesn't make it true.

What's the expansion myth? Is it a myth that settlements are being built outside of Israel?

The borders haven't moved in a decade other than the Gaza pullout. I find it hard to imagine how you can have expansion with no change in the border.

Draw a line that includes all the West Bank settlements and compare it to the pre-1967 borders. I find it hard to imagine how you can look at just the past nine years and say there is no expansion.
 
You're dodging. And how is ANY DE-ESCALATION AT ALL working out for the West Bank Palestinians?

Peace, violent resistance, it's all the same for the Palestinians. Israel continues to expand and oppress.

But what they have found is that when they are violent they get noticed and have a voice.

But when they are peaceful and still being slowly crushed nobody notices. Nobody seems to take notice of Israeli oppression unless the Palestinians violently resist in some way.

Continuing to repeat that expansion myth doesn't make it true.

What's the expansion myth? Is it a myth that settlements are being built outside of Israel?

The borders haven't moved in a decade other than the Gaza pullout. I find it hard to imagine how you can have expansion with no change in the border.

Draw a line that includes all the West Bank settlements and compare it to the pre-1967 borders. I find it hard to imagine how you can look at just the past nine years and say there is no expansion.

Draw that line now, draw it 10 years ago. See any difference?
 
What's the expansion myth? Is it a myth that settlements are being built outside of Israel?

The borders haven't moved in a decade other than the Gaza pullout. I find it hard to imagine how you can have expansion with no change in the border.

Did you just say that Israel already owns/claims all of the West Bank? Why aren't the Palestinians there considered citizens, then?
 
Lauren should start his own mega thread.

Earlier in the year Netanyahu said on camera Israel would continue to expand settlements in the west bank as Israel saw fit to do.

If you are denying Israeli taking Palestinian land you are ignoring established Israeli policy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier

'…According to the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem, 8.5% of the West Bank area will after completion be on the Israeli side of the barrier


….severely restricts Palestinians who live nearby, particularly their ability to travel freely within the West Bank, including to and from the lands on which their subsistence depends,[12] and to access work in Israel.[13] In a 2004 advisory opinion resulting from a Palestinian-initiated U.N. resolution, the International Court of Justice considered that "Israel cannot rely on a right of self-defence or on a state of necessity in order to preclude the wrongfulness of the construction of the wall". The Court asserted that "the construction of the wall, and its associated régime, are contrary to international law...Parts of the barrier are built on land seized from Palestinians,[62][67] or between Palestinians and their lands[68] In a 2009 report, the UN said that the most recent barrier route allocates more segments to be built on the Green Line itself compared to previous draft routes of the barrier. However, in its current route the barrier is annexing 9.5% of the total area of the West Bank to the Israeli side of the barrier.[69]

In early 2003, 63 shops straddling the Green Line were demolished by the IDF during construction of the wall in the village of Nazlat Issa.[70][71] In August 2003, an additional 115 shops and stalls (an important source of income for several communities) and five to seven homes there were also demolished.[72][73]

According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), 15 communities were to be directly affected, numbering approximately 138,593 Palestinians, including 13,450 refugee families, or 67,250 individuals. In addition to loss of land, in the city of Qalqilyah one-third of the city's water wells lie on the other side of the barrier. The Israeli Supreme Court says the Israeli government's rejection of accusations of a de facto annexation of these wells, stating that "the construction of the fence does not affect the implementation of the water agreements determined in the (interim) agreement".[2]

The United Nations Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia (ESCWA) estimates that in the north of the West Bank approximately 80 per cent of Palestinians who own land on the other side of the barrier have not received permits from the Israeli authorities, and hence cannot cultivate their fields.[74]

Israel has built a barrier in the Jordan Valley near the Jordan border. Because of international condemnation after the 2004 International Court ruling Israel did not build an even stronger barrier, instead instituting a restrictive permit regime for Palestinians.[75] However, it has changed the route to allow settlements to annex parcels of land.[76] The existing barrier cuts off access to the Jordan River for Palestinian farmers in the West Bank.[77] Israeli settlement councils already have defacto control of 86 percent of the Jordan Valley and the Dead Sea[78] as the settler population steadily grows there.[79] In 2013, Ehud Barak, Israeli Defense Minister at the time, proposed that Israel should consider unilateral disengagement from the West Bank and the dismantling of settlements beyond the separation barrier, but maintain a military presence in the Jordan Valley along the West Bank-Jordan border.[80]...'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement


'...In July 2012, according to the Israeli interior ministry, 350,150 Jewish settlers lived in the 121 officially recognised settlements in the West Bank, 300,000 Israelis lived in settlements in East Jerusalem and over 20,000 lived in settlements in the Golan Heights.[26][27] Settlements range in character from farming communities and frontier villages to urban suburbs and neighborhoods. The four largest settlements, Modi'in Illit, Ma'ale Adumim, Beitar Illit and Ariel, have achieved city status. Ariel has 18,000 residents while the rest have around 37,000 to 55,500 each...'
 
You're dodging. And how is ANY DE-ESCALATION AT ALL working out for the West Bank Palestinians?

Peace, violent resistance, it's all the same for the Palestinians. Israel continues to expand and oppress.

But what they have found is that when they are violent they get noticed and have a voice.

But when they are peaceful and still being slowly crushed nobody notices. Nobody seems to take notice of Israeli oppression unless the Palestinians violently resist in some way.

Continuing to repeat that expansion myth doesn't make it true.

What's the expansion myth? Is it a myth that settlements are being built outside of Israel?

The borders haven't moved in a decade other than the Gaza pullout. I find it hard to imagine how you can have expansion with no change in the border.

Draw a line that includes all the West Bank settlements and compare it to the pre-1967 borders. I find it hard to imagine how you can look at just the past nine years and say there is no expansion.

Draw that line now, draw it 10 years ago. See any difference?

Yes.
 
Draw that line now, draw it 10 years ago. See any difference?

Yes.

1) That's Haaretz, a very questionable source.

2) "Israel seized control of 984 dunams of territory in the Gush Etzion settlement bloc"

In other words, even if they're basically telling the truth the border didn't move.
 

1) That's Haaretz, a very questionable source.

2) "Israel seized control of 984 dunams of territory in the Gush Etzion settlement bloc"

In other words, even if they're basically telling the truth the border didn't move.
Yes, it did move. The general vicinity of "Gush Etzion settlement bloc" is not a clearly defined border. What matters is whether the land is by Israel considered "state land" or not, because Israel has a policy that any outposts in Palestinian privately owned land are illegal and are eventually going to be dismantled (yeah right!), but the ones in "state land" may be legitimized. By changing the border so that the outposts now reside inside "state land" effectively opens the door for legalizing their status as has been done for several other such outposts within the last decade.

And did you miss the part about this making the Palestinian-owned land into enclaves? This would not be possible if the border did not change. Unless of course you think the "border" is really the entirety of the West Bank and that Israel can take whatever land it wants.
 
You're dodging. And how is ANY DE-ESCALATION AT ALL working out for the West Bank Palestinians?

Peace, violent resistance, it's all the same for the Palestinians. Israel continues to expand and oppress.

But what they have found is that when they are violent they get noticed and have a voice.

But when they are peaceful and still being slowly crushed nobody notices. Nobody seems to take notice of Israeli oppression unless the Palestinians violently resist in some way.

Continuing to repeat that expansion myth doesn't make it true.



What's the expansion myth? Is it a myth that settlements are being built outside of Israel?

The borders haven't moved in a decade other than the Gaza pullout. I find it hard to imagine how you can have expansion with no change in the border.

Draw a line that includes all the West Bank settlements and compare it to the pre-1967 borders. I find it hard to imagine how you can look at just the past nine years and say there is no expansion.

Draw that line now, draw it 10 years ago. See any difference?

That would be good if no one could remember more that 10 years ago. It's difficult to go to the table and say, "Yeah, we pretty much fucked you out of everything, but we haven't stolen any of your stuff for at least ten years, so that should make us cool, right?"

Here's the possible solutions for peace. There maybe more.
1. Israel pushes all Palestinians into Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, and tells them to never come back.
2. Palestine pushes Israel into the Mediterranean Sea.
3. The Israelis remove their citizens from the West Bank and let the Palestinians create a landlocked sovereign nation. Gaza would still be a problem, but a diplomatic corridor could be negotiated.
4. Israel claims the West Bank and Gaza and gives Palestinians full Israeli citizenship. This would include compensation for all property seized of lost in the past 50 years of armed conflict. Amnesty is granted by both sides for all previous acts of patriotism-terrorism-military defense-PYL. Any further acts of violence are treated as criminal offenses.

Which one do you think would work? Got any other ideas?
 
1) That's Haaretz, a very questionable source.

2) "Israel seized control of 984 dunams of territory in the Gush Etzion settlement bloc"

In other words, even if they're basically telling the truth the border didn't move.
Yes, it did move. The general vicinity of "Gush Etzion settlement bloc" is not a clearly defined border. What matters is whether the land is by Israel considered "state land" or not, because Israel has a policy that any outposts in Palestinian privately owned land are illegal and are eventually going to be dismantled (yeah right!), but the ones in "state land" may be legitimized. By changing the border so that the outposts now reside inside "state land" effectively opens the door for legalizing their status as has been done for several other such outposts within the last decade.

And did you miss the part about this making the Palestinian-owned land into enclaves? This would not be possible if the border did not change. Unless of course you think the "border" is really the entirety of the West Bank and that Israel can take whatever land it wants.

Anything labeled a "settlement block" is inside the wall.

- - - Updated - - -

You're dodging. And how is ANY DE-ESCALATION AT ALL working out for the West Bank Palestinians?

Peace, violent resistance, it's all the same for the Palestinians. Israel continues to expand and oppress.

But what they have found is that when they are violent they get noticed and have a voice.

But when they are peaceful and still being slowly crushed nobody notices. Nobody seems to take notice of Israeli oppression unless the Palestinians violently resist in some way.

Continuing to repeat that expansion myth doesn't make it true.



What's the expansion myth? Is it a myth that settlements are being built outside of Israel?

The borders haven't moved in a decade other than the Gaza pullout. I find it hard to imagine how you can have expansion with no change in the border.

Draw a line that includes all the West Bank settlements and compare it to the pre-1967 borders. I find it hard to imagine how you can look at just the past nine years and say there is no expansion.

Draw that line now, draw it 10 years ago. See any difference?

That would be good if no one could remember more that 10 years ago. It's difficult to go to the table and say, "Yeah, we pretty much fucked you out of everything, but we haven't stolen any of your stuff for at least ten years, so that should make us cool, right?"

Here's the possible solutions for peace. There maybe more.
1. Israel pushes all Palestinians into Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, and tells them to never come back.
2. Palestine pushes Israel into the Mediterranean Sea.
3. The Israelis remove their citizens from the West Bank and let the Palestinians create a landlocked sovereign nation. Gaza would still be a problem, but a diplomatic corridor could be negotiated.
4. Israel claims the West Bank and Gaza and gives Palestinians full Israeli citizenship. This would include compensation for all property seized of lost in the past 50 years of armed conflict. Amnesty is granted by both sides for all previous acts of patriotism-terrorism-military defense-PYL. Any further acts of violence are treated as criminal offenses.

Which one do you think would work? Got any other ideas?

I was referring to the eternal claims of continued loss of land.

2 would bring the peace of death.
1 would be neutral
3 & 4 would make the problem worse, not better.
 
That would be good if no one could remember more that 10 years ago. It's difficult to go to the table and say, "Yeah, we pretty much fucked you out of everything, but we haven't stolen any of your stuff for at least ten years, so that should make us cool, right?"

Here's the possible solutions for peace. There maybe more.
1. Israel pushes all Palestinians into Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, and tells them to never come back.
2. Palestine pushes Israel into the Mediterranean Sea.
3. The Israelis remove their citizens from the West Bank and let the Palestinians create a landlocked sovereign nation. Gaza would still be a problem, but a diplomatic corridor could be negotiated.
4. Israel claims the West Bank and Gaza and gives Palestinians full Israeli citizenship. This would include compensation for all property seized of lost in the past 50 years of armed conflict. Amnesty is granted by both sides for all previous acts of patriotism-terrorism-military defense-PYL. Any further acts of violence are treated as criminal offenses.

Which one do you think would work? Got any other ideas?

I was referring to the eternal claims of continued loss of land.

2 would bring the peace of death.
1 would be neutral
3 & 4 would make the problem worse, not better.

"1" would be NEUTRAL? Kicking all those people off their land forever and giving it to someone else is what you would call "neutral"?
 
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