Why do people vote for Trump and why do they still support him? Answers.

[SimpleDon]

I offer an opinion piece from the Washington Post that provides a reasonable answer to the question of why do people still support Trump in spite of RussiaGate and the sexual scandals of which Trump has been accused of doing, accusations backed by Trump's recorded boasting.

It is To beat President Trump, you have to learn to think like his supporters by Andrés Miguel Rondón, subtitled "Scandals will never defeat a populist".

Rondón is a Venezuelan economist who compares Trump to Hugo Chávez. I found this to be incredulous when I first read it, but finally it made sense. Both are populists elected by their supporters to blow up the government. Trump's supporters were disgusted by the government run by the affirmative action assisted black guy, mainly with his having provided health care to millions of undeserving poor people by taking over the health care system in some vague way involving death panels and socialism.

Chávez was elected to overturn the University of Chicago approved, austerity loving (for others) corrupt oligarchy, run for the benefit of the 1% wealthiest, who corralled the bulk of the oil wealth in Venezuela.

Both Chávez and Trump not only seem to be immune from scandal, they both profited from it.

Rondón: Why? Because scandal is no threat to populism. Scandal sustains populism.

Rondón lived through the Chávez time in Venezuela. He also was outraged at the scandals and ineptitude of the populist leader, just as so many of us are at Trump. He understands that we expect that any day Trump will be impeached or forced to resign because he felt the same about Chávez.

But it isn't going to happen, Trump isn't going away, he is not president in spite of the scandals, he is president because of them. Normal politicians are brought down by scandal because the scandals break the deal between his supporters and the politicians.

But Trump's deal with his voters is that Trump will fight the enemies of his voters,

An enemy (the unpatriotic minorities, the lying liberal media, anyone not part of his Manichaean vision) is being cartooned, blamed for all of society’s evils and offered in sacrifice as a scapegoat to the United States’ problems. The purported solution is still simple: Shame them, silence them, build a wall around them. The basic premise that the restoration of the country lies in the destruction of its enemies remains.

Trump's scandals are just to be expected as signs that he is fighting for his supporters, that he is drawing blood in the fight. The scandals are fake news, they are attempts to stop him.

That we have realize that we are the enemies of Trump supporters, in their eyes. We have been made into the reason that the Trump supporters are suffering by a large, well supported propaganda machine that has gone from slanting the news to outright lying.

But what is not propaganda is that many of the people who supported Trump are genuinely suffering, they are not participating in the prosperity of the nation as a whole. They have no job security, and they see no hope for the future for their children. Their wages have been declining.

Trumpism will only go away if we can convince the Trump supporters that we are not the their enemies. That we are not the reason that they are suffering. But this where Rondón runs out of answers. They weren't able to do this in Venezuela. Certainly here we are not even asking the questions. In fact, to varying degrees, we seem to buy into the propaganda and the lies ourselves.

So how do we convince the Trump supporters that 24 hours a day of Fox News and talk radio are wrong, that liberals, centurists, moderates, minorities and the media aren't responsible for their suffering?

And that we have a vision of what to do to relieve their very real suffering. One that doesn't depend on breaking our democracy.

I don't have an answer either. But I am sure that emulating the Fox News, right wing tactic by demonizing Trump and attacking him is not the way to do it, that it is playing into his hands, exactly the mistake that we made in the 2016 election.

I can only offer this weak suggestion. Stop listening to Rachel Maddow. Listen instead to Joe Biden.

Show

It occurred to me that Chávez and Trump are similar in more ways than that. Both Chávez and Trump were/are congenitally inept at governing. Both gained from outside interference in their elections. Trump was helped by the Russians parroting his attacks on the Obama administration and on Clinton. Chávez was helped by the inept attempt at interference by the Bush 43 administration to sabotage him in a reelection campaign and it is rumored by the Cubans. Both subscribed to specious economic theories, Chávez to state socialism, the capture of businesses by the state to be run for the benefit of the masses, and Trump to neoliberalism, the idea that the government should remove itself from the economy because the market, if left free of the government would magically start to regulate itself providing the greatest measure of social justice possible.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Sounds right. Trump is adored via his cult of personality. A woman actually had a "Trump can grab my pussy" written on a sign or her shirt. Trump doesn't have a platform, other than "MAGA". His involvement with the tax cut was minimal, despite his parading about how great it was of him. The people that support him, support him because of the image of Trump, 'greatness' and 'the good ole days'. Back when it was okay to call people retarded because it didn't matter how people felt. Trump supporters are selfish people that want to return to a time when all that matters is how does it affect white people. These people hate change because if it was good for then, it is good for now.

So you get this weird support of Russia by Trump supporters, as they will support his image, regardless. They'll say the Mueller investigation is a witch hunt, but then will defend Trump's actions when the charges come. Trump was right when he said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose his supporters. He was proud of that. Most people would be shocked and appalled.

Also, when I hear Populism, I think William Jennings Bryan, not Donald Trump. Though perhaps they have more in common that would at first seem apparent, both were somewhat daft. I suppose the big difference is Bryan had a heart, where as Trump has a heart 3 times too small.

 

[SimpleDon]

Sounds right. Trump is adored via his cult of personality. A woman actually had a "Trump can grab my pussy" written on a sign or her shirt. Trump doesn't have a platform, other than "MAGA". His involvement with the tax cut was minimal, despite his parading about how great it was of him. The people that support him, support him because of the image of Trump, 'greatness' and 'the good ole days'. Back when it was okay to call people retarded because it didn't matter how people felt. Trump supporters are selfish people that want to return to a time when all that matters is how does it affect white people. These people hate change because if it was good for then, it is good for now.

So you get this weird support of Russia by Trump supporters, as they will support his image, regardless. They'll say the Mueller investigation is a witch hunt, but then will defend Trump's actions when the charges come. Trump was right when he said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose his supporters. He was proud of that. Most people would be shocked and appalled.

Also, when I hear Populism, I think William Jennings Bryan, not Donald Trump. Though perhaps they have more in common that would at first seem apparent, both were somewhat daft. I suppose the big difference is Bryan had a heart, where as Trump has a heart 3 times too small.

Populism is also Huey Long, Perón and Hitler. Any movement that aims its appeal to the common man. It is often centered on a personality, as in the cases mentioned and including Trump. Whether populism is good or bad depends on its aims and its honesity. All too often it is a dishonest way to gain power. Theodore and Franklin Roosevelt's populism were honest, as well as Bryan's who you mentioned. As well as populism being immune to scandal, it is also immune to being daft.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Start off by not telling people they are wrong, wrong for watching Fox and any other questionable place they might visiting. If you want someone to tune you out, attack their beliefs, their opinions, tell them they’re wrong.
Avoid the volatile subjects you know are going to drive a wedge in the conversation. Find an area of common ground and build from there. I would suggest the “United” in United States of America might be a good jumping off point. Few actually support a divided country. It is an unpatriotic position to defend. I would talk without giving reference to support my claims as my references would likely be considered fake. Just appeal to common sense. Build these areas of agreement and let them find their own way.
I think it is also important to approach a person from a point of neutrality. If they know you and you have “Liberal” stamped on your forehead, you’ve already got a hole to dig yourself out of.
Gauge the person’s level of knowledge and speak to them appropriately. You may have no problem speaking in depth on many subjects but that’s no way to build rapport.

This could take awhile.

 

[Horatio Parker]

I think Trump is much less popular than Chavez was, and therein lies the hope.

He was elected with 3M fewer votes than HRC, and the margin in his midwest upset was only 80k.

Some Trump voters must have buyer's remorse.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Some Trump voters must have buyer's remorse.

I'm sure some do. But I'm also pretty sure that some have normalized Trump and tuned out of politics after Trump's presidency didn't bring effects as horrible as they had imagined. Sadly, if we had the election again today, I'm not confident Trump wouldn't win again.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

@ SimpleDon

I'm not sure how to categorize the OP but I don't think much of it. Trump is president but he lost the popular vote. That's just plain weird in a democracy, and that's why he is president. That less people wanted him president and a majority of voters wanted another candidate renders everything in the OP moot imho.

Beyond that, voting for a candidate on idealism while your wages stagnate is something I can't comprehend doing personally, but millions of people do it. It's like they don't mind being poor so long as their man is in charge. I simply don't think it is a smart thing to do but who says voters have to be smart?

The loudest Trump supporters I know - and that may not be representative of his base but this is just my experience - are religious, white, less educated, xenophobic and somewhat paranoid. I didn't include income in that because it seems to me that income doesn't really matter. It's a type of individual that votes for Trump, someone who is kinda mad at the world and thinks they are entitled to have more, and likes having enemies to demonize. Trump is all those things for them.

But it's important to remember that he lost the popular vote by millions.

 

[TSwizzle]

I'm sure some do. But I'm also pretty sure that some have normalized Trump and tuned out of politics after Trump's presidency didn't bring effects as horrible as they had imagined. Sadly, if we had the election again today, I'm not confident Trump wouldn't win again.

I have yet to meet anyone who will admit to voting for Trump. And why shouldn't Trump win again ? The Democrats lost the last election, they need to get prepared for the next election and come up with policies and candidate that will win the next election.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm sure some do. But I'm also pretty sure that some have normalized Trump and tuned out of politics after Trump's presidency didn't bring effects as horrible as they had imagined. Sadly, if we had the election again today, I'm not confident Trump wouldn't win again.

I have yet to meet anyone who will admit to voting for Trump. And why shouldn't Trump win again ?

The Virginia House very unexpectedly went 50-50. And while the election in Alabama is an outlier, the Democrat won. Trump backed candidate also lost the major races in Virginia as well.

The Democrats lost the last election, they need to get prepared for the next election and come up with policies and candidate that will win the next election.

And they are working on that. To the Democrats benefit, a lot of seats are incumbancies, which are a bit easier to win. Also, Trump helped raise taxes (or at least it is perceived he has) for those in California, New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, states where a notable number of Republicans are representatives.

The one tell all from the outlier in Alabama, however, was energy... turnout. If the Democrats can get such a turnout in 2018, it could get ugly. Mind you, I doubt a 2010 level of ugly, but it has definitely got to be on the Republican radar.

And the Republicans aren't just facing the Democrats in November 2018, they are facing the fascist right-wing in the primaries.

We are also due a recession... and now Trump "owns it", whether it is fair or not, with the passing of the tax cut. And the whole Russia investigation thing, where we keep seeing the timeline moving further and further back for the Trump Campaign... and Jr claiming attorney client privilege... with talks with Daddy. 2018 could make 2017 look... well... fucked up... but just not as fucked up. The Mid-Term elections might as well be decades from now, there is so much waiting to come onto the shores.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Some Trump voters must have buyer's remorse.

I'm sure some do. But I'm also pretty sure that some have normalized Trump and tuned out of politics after Trump's presidency didn't bring effects as horrible as they had imagined. Sadly, if we had the election again today, I'm not confident Trump wouldn't win again.

Some have normalized Trump? Who are they?

You seem to be suggesting Trump's expanding his base, but that's not what the polls say.

Nor do I think it's all clear he would win again. I know Michigan voters that didn't vote for prez at all. Give them an attractive alternative and Trump is toast.

 

[Elixir]

Some Trump voters must have buyer's remorse.

I'm sure some do. But I'm also pretty sure that some have normalized Trump and tuned out of politics after Trump's presidency didn't bring effects as horrible as they had imagined. Sadly, if we had the election again today, I'm not confident Trump wouldn't win again.

Some have normalized Trump? Who are they?

Faux Nooz, for one. Check it out - you'd think everything is great, Cheato is the best thing to happen since sliced bread and all of you (toothless trumpsuckers) are all going to be billionaires thanks to the orange moron.

 

[ideologyhunter]

And Boy, is that "Thank You President Trump!" ad ripe for parody. I would keep the Thank You intact but thank him for bringing nuclear war very, very close to us; for alienating Australia, the UK, and Germany -- make that all the western democracies; bringing sleazy 7th grade language into White House communications; allowing Darth Bannon to stalk the same halls that Lincoln knew; slashing health care; providing people like him with a giant gift-wrapped tax benefit; showing the world that 33% of us are complete fools......I'm sure there's more.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Some have normalized Trump? Who are they?

Faux Nooz, for one. Check it out - you'd think everything is great, Cheato is the best thing to happen since sliced bread and all of you (toothless trumpsuckers) are all going to be billionaires thanks to the orange moron.

There wasn't much to choose from in the last election.

 

[SimpleDon]

Start off by not telling people they are wrong, wrong for watching Fox and any other questionable place they might visiting. If you want someone to tune you out, attack their beliefs, their opinions, tell them they’re wrong.
Avoid the volatile subjects you know are going to drive a wedge in the conversation. Find an area of common ground and build from there. I would suggest the “United” in United States of America might be a good jumping off point. Few actually support a divided country. It is an unpatriotic position to defend. I would talk without giving reference to support my claims as my references would likely be considered fake. Just appeal to common sense. Build these areas of agreement and let them find their own way.
I think it is also important to approach a person from a point of neutrality. If they know you and you have “Liberal” stamped on your forehead, you’ve already got a hole to dig yourself out of.
Gauge the person’s level of knowledge and speak to them appropriately. You may have no problem speaking in depth on many subjects but that’s no way to build rapport.

This could take awhile.

Basically don't preach and try to find common ground to start with. This could take awhile.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Some have normalized Trump? Who are they?

Faux Nooz, for one. Check it out - you'd think everything is great, Cheato is the best thing to happen since sliced bread and all of you (toothless trumpsuckers) are all going to be billionaires thanks to the orange moron.

That's been their line since Trump clinched the nomination. Doesn't mean the ranks are increasing.

 

[Subsymbolic]

I think it's quite simple: the depressing discovery that people are easier to hack than the equipment they vote on. It's odd the way that all the evidence of this is out there in public domain, even made explicit in the market value of companies like facebook, based upon a highly informed nudge advertising model and the ubiquity of loyalty cards to grab data. If all this sort of thing didn't work then they wouldn't be doing it and wouldn't be so damned rich. Elections are simply marketing and it's unfortunate that oligarchs, both Western and Soviet have been first out of the blocks to use these resources politically.

Trump was trailing by double digits with no hope of recovery before he sold his soul to Mercer and the Russians. Then, a miracle...

It's no less and no more than an act of war.

 

[SimpleDon]

Some Trump voters must have buyer's remorse.

I'm sure some do. But I'm also pretty sure that some have normalized Trump and tuned out of politics after Trump's presidency didn't bring effects as horrible as they had imagined. Sadly, if we had the election again today, I'm not confident Trump wouldn't win again.

I am not either. The basic idea behind the opinion piece is that a sizable number of the voters who supported Trump wanted him to do exactly what he is doing, shaking things up in Washington. They would vote for him again. There are a large number of values voters who will never vote for a Democrat, even a blue dog conservative democrat. Then there are the people who always vote Republican out of habit. I think that if the election were held today that Trump would get about the same number of votes that he got against Hillary. The election would come down to how many Democrats would vote, how upset they are at Trump. Right now they are plenty upset, but whether they can sustain tat anger until 2018 is an open question, much less to 2020.

The polling on how well Trump is doing his job doesn't translate into the popular vote head to head in the election. There are voters who think that Trump is not doing a good job because he hasn't passed a constitutional amendment against abortion and contraception, but who wouldn't vote for a Democrat.

I actually started writing this to joedad, thinking I had clicked on his Reply with quote. I told you that I am not very good at this.

 

[Elixir]

Some have normalized Trump? Who are they?

Faux Nooz, for one. Check it out - you'd think everything is great, Cheato is the best thing to happen since sliced bread and all of you (toothless trumpsuckers) are all going to be billionaires thanks to the orange moron.

That's been their line since Trump clinched the nomination. Doesn't mean the ranks are increasing.

True. Of course, that won't stop Faux Nooz from telling the Faithful that they are an increasing majority, that Cheato has record approval ratings and that he has garnered world-wide accolades for his statesmanship and diplomacy...

 

[SimpleDon]

@ SimpleDon

I'm not sure how to categorize the OP but I don't think much of it. Trump is president but he lost the popular vote. That's just plain weird in a democracy, and that's why he is president. That less people wanted him president and a majority of voters wanted another candidate renders everything in the OP moot imho.

Beyond that, voting for a candidate on idealism while your wages stagnate is something I can't comprehend doing personally, but millions of people do it. It's like they don't mind being poor so long as their man is in charge. I simply don't think it is a smart thing to do but who says voters have to be smart?

The loudest Trump supporters I know - and that may not be representative of his base but this is just my experience - are religious, white, less educated, xenophobic and somewhat paranoid. I didn't include income in that because it seems to me that income doesn't really matter. It's a type of individual that votes for Trump, someone who is kinda mad at the world and thinks they are entitled to have more, and likes having enemies to demonize. Trump is all those things for them.

But it's important to remember that he lost the popular vote by millions.

The OP is about the 30 to 40% of the voters who support Trump no matter what he does. That they voted for him to do exactly what he is doing now, shaking up Washington and the government. To fight against the people that Fox News and the right has told them are responsible for their poor jobs and wages, and for the poor prospects for their children. This is the first generation that hasn't seen an improvement over their parents. I am a baby boomer and we are the last generation that saw an improvement across the broad.

I know quite a number of people who proudly voted for Trump and who are well educated, not especially religious, don't care about abortion and whose wives are ready to disown them. The only thing that they have in common is that they are white males with a serious Fox News/Rush Limbaugh addiction. I have kept a rough count of the people I know more than just casually (Christmas list minus people from work and doctors and lawyers) and it is about one hundred and twenty and at least forty of them voted for Trump. I don't get out much any more.

The common threads among the Trump supporters that I know is that they believe that the government is corrupt and that private enterprise isn't, that regulations handcuff the economy and prevent growth, that blacks want to live off of the largess of the government and that all the Democrats want to do is to raise taxes, raise welfare payments, increase the national debt and to lower defense spending. None of which is true. My liberal friends and relatives believe that conservatives want to raise defense spending, to increase the incomes of the rich, to deny science when it is inconvenient, to increase the national debt, to deny minorities their rights as citizens, to boost profits and to lower wages, and to destroy the government, all of which is true. It is hard to feel sorry for conservatives but yet we have to find some basis to deal with them and to convince them that we aren't their enemies. As you can see this is a monumental task. How do we start to convince conservatives that we need an agreed upon standard of what is news and what is fake news. What are facts and what are lies.

 

[Opoponax]

@ SimpleDon

I'm not sure how to categorize the OP but I don't think much of it. Trump is president but he lost the popular vote. That's just plain weird in a democracy, and that's why he is president. That less people wanted him president and a majority of voters wanted another candidate renders everything in the OP moot imho.

Beyond that, voting for a candidate on idealism while your wages stagnate is something I can't comprehend doing personally, but millions of people do it. It's like they don't mind being poor so long as their man is in charge. I simply don't think it is a smart thing to do but who says voters have to be smart?

The loudest Trump supporters I know - and that may not be representative of his base but this is just my experience - are religious, white, less educated, xenophobic and somewhat paranoid. I didn't include income in that because it seems to me that income doesn't really matter. It's a type of individual that votes for Trump, someone who is kinda mad at the world and thinks they are entitled to have more, and likes having enemies to demonize. Trump is all those things for them.

But it's important to remember that he lost the popular vote by millions.

The OP is about the 30 to 40% of the voters who support Trump no matter what he does. That they voted for him to do exactly what he is doing now, shaking up Washington and the government. To fight against the people that Fox News and the right has told them are responsible for their poor jobs and wages, and for the poor prospects for their children. This is the first generation that hasn't seen an improvement over their parents. I am a baby boomer and we are the last generation that saw an improvement across the broad.

I know quite a number of people who proudly voted for Trump and who are well educated, not especially religious, don't care about abortion and whose wives are ready to disown them. The only thing that they have in common is that they are white males with a serious Fox News/Rush Limbaugh addiction. I have kept a rough count of the people I know more than just casually (Christmas list minus people from work and doctors and lawyers) and it is about one hundred and twenty and at least forty of them voted for Trump. I don't get out much any more.

The common threads among the Trump supporters that I know is that they believe that the government is corrupt and that private enterprise isn't, that regulations handcuff the economy and prevent growth, that blacks want to live off of the largess of the government and that all the Democrats want to do is to raise taxes, raise welfare payments, increase the national debt and to lower defense spending. None of which is true. My liberal friends and relatives believe that conservatives want to raise defense spending, to increase the incomes of the rich, to deny science when it is inconvenient, to increase the national debt, to deny minorities their rights as citizens, to boost profits and to lower wages, and to destroy the government, all of which is true. It is hard to feel sorry for conservatives but yet we have to find some basis to deal with them and to convince them that we aren't their enemies. As you can see this is a monumental task. How do we start to convince conservatives that we need an agreed upon standard of what is news and what is fake news. What are facts and what are lies.

I see you've met my dad.

That's exactly who he is. And what I've learned is that there is no talking to these people. Just fucking forget it. My dad blamed Obama for the Vegas massacre. Seriously. There's no gap to bridge, no meeting halfway, no common ground.

Reasonableness can't get along with lunacy. You can't say, "Okay, you let me be rational about A and I'll let you be completely batshit about B, and I'm sure it'll all work out." Reasoned discourse is helpless in the face of goalposts that not only shift, but get moved off the field, into the stands, and out into the parking lot, where they're tossed onto the back of a truck and taken to the local land fill to be burned.

These people are not worth listening to and they're not worth trying to appeal to.