Police Kill Man Attempting to "Open Carry" ..wait for it...

[Derec]

Oh yippee... Derec has his token black dude

Can't take credit. I nicked it from the "What if Trayvon Martin had channeled Huey Newton?" thread.

 

[RavenSky]

Oh yippee... Derec has his token black dude

Can't take credit. I nicked it from the "What if Trayvon Martin had channeled Huey Newton?" thread.

And you will no doubt drag it out almost as often as you bring up the Duke Lacrosse Team It still won't detract from the fact that when we have almost identical situations of men walking around big box stores carrying rifles, only the black man ended up dead.

"Them being freaked out doesn't trump my right to open carry," said Murphy, who described himself as a member of Alabama Gun Rights, an advocacy group.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Is this guy dead?

Only on the inside. Seems he's actually an actor of sorts who makes most of his bones appearing on conservolibertarian talk shows to pontificate on how awesome guns are: token black guy for hire.

Bad publicity stunt is bad.

 

[Derec]

Yes it is.

No it is not.

This is what we used to call a "bb gun." Something you might - if you handled it irresponsibly - be able to use to cause an injury.

While even the guns generally referred to as "BB guns" can cause injury they have substantially lower muzzle velocity than guns like this one. Gun firing at 800 fps is certainly not a toy - it can even be lethal in some circumstances or at least cause serious injury.

An air rifle is to an actual rifle what a ten speed bike is to a Harley.

Nobody disagrees that an "actual rifle" is much more dangerous but neither are toys just like neither a 10 speed bicycle nor a Harley are toys - both are serious modes of conveyance. Neither is in the same league as say a big wheel.

Unless of course a black man unpacks one in Wal Mart...then it becomes a "deadly weapon being brandished about by a mad man."

I see no evidence race played any role in this. But who needs evidence right?

 

[Derec]

Did the police ever release the video of that motorist they shot dead in South Carolina? The football player? Wonder why not...

I wonder that too. Since the police chief was eager to throw the police officer under the bus from the word "go" and since the DA shopped around grand juries until he found one that would indict I think that if the video was as incriminating as you think they would be very eager to release it. In any case, a bit off topic here.

Wonder if we will get to see this one. I suspect it's not as scary-looking as you are assuming, derec. So not-scary that those two witnesses followed him around the store ("from a safe distance"). If a person with a gun was truly doing scary stuff you bet your bottom dollar I would not be FOLLOWING HIM AROUND!

Scary enough to call the police for sure. Why didn't he drop the gun when they arrived? Why did he brandish it in the first place? If he wanted to buy it, he didn't need to take it out of the box. If he wanted to just check it out there was no reason to walk around with it while on the phone with the baby mama.

 

[beero1000]

- not a toy gun.

Yes it is.


This is what we used to call a "bb gun." Something you might - if you handled it irresponsibly - be able to use to cause an injury.

Deadly weapon? Not even close.

An air rifle is to an actual rifle what a ten speed bike is to a Harley.


Unless of course a black man unpacks one in Wal Mart...then it becomes a "deadly weapon being brandished about by a mad man."

It isn't. Modern pellet guns (not the same as BB gun) fire .177 pellets at muzzle velocities more than 3-4 times the dinky BB guns you are probably thinking of. They are significantly closer to a .22 rifle than to the air rifle in A Christmas Story.

That isn't to say the shooting was justified, just that the 'it was a TOY' reaction is nonsense.

 

[Ford]

It isn't. Modern pellet guns (not the same as BB gun) fire .177 pellets at muzzle velocities more than 3-4 times the dinky BB guns you are probably thinking of. They are significantly closer to a .22 rifle than to the air rifle in A Christmas Story.

Compared to an AR-15 or other semi-automatic rifle? Yeah, they're toys.

But at issue in this shooting is not the caliber or muzzle velocity of an air rifle, but the fact that when confronted with a 22 year old kid waving around an air rifle, the cops decided upon deadly force.

What was the muzzle velocity of the weapons they used to shoot this guy?

 

[Derec]

Seems he's actually an actor of sorts who makes most of his bones appearing on conservolibertarian talk shows to pontificate on how awesome guns are: token black guy for hire.

Who he "seems to be" is irrelevant whether the claim is true or not. It disproves the race-baiter claim that open carrying black people are shot on sight just because they are black.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Seems he's actually an actor of sorts who makes most of his bones appearing on conservolibertarian talk shows to pontificate on how awesome guns are: token black guy for hire.

Who he "seems to be" is irrelevant whether the claim is true or not. It disproves the race-baiter claim that open carrying black people are shot on sight just because they are black.

Of course not. Just the ones that don't call the police ahead of time to make them fully aware of the fact that a black guy with a semi-automatic rifle and a pistol strapped to his hip will be attending an obamacare rally, escorted by a camera crew, for the purposes of an ill-conceived publicity stunt.

IOW: People who aren't actors.

 

[Derec]

Compared to an AR-15 or other semi-automatic rifle? Yeah, they're toys.

It's either a toy or it isn't (it isn't). No "compared to".

But at issue in this shooting is not the caliber or muzzle velocity of an air rifle, but the fact that when confronted with a 22 year old kid waving around an air rifle, the cops decided upon deadly force.

Again, not a toy. Also, made to look as a real assault rifle and no orange tip either (since it is not a toy). And a 22 year old is a fully grown adult, not a kid.

What was the muzzle velocity of the weapons they used to shoot this guy?

Irrelevant to the situation. What is relevant is that he was brandishing an air rifle, the air rifle, while not-a-toy and dangerous in its own right was made to look like an actual assault rifle, and that he failed to comply with police orders to drop it.

Again, for the hard of hearing (and reading).

The MK-177 pellet gun is not a toy!!!

 

[beero1000]

It isn't. Modern pellet guns (not the same as BB gun) fire .177 pellets at muzzle velocities more than 3-4 times the dinky BB guns you are probably thinking of. They are significantly closer to a .22 rifle than to the air rifle in A Christmas Story.

Compared to an AR-15 or other semi-automatic rifle? Yeah, they're toys.

But at issue in this shooting is not the caliber or muzzle velocity of an air rifle, but the fact that when confronted with a 22 year old kid waving around an air rifle, the cops decided upon deadly force.

What was the muzzle velocity of the weapons they used to shoot this guy?

Whoosh, goalpost.

I am not defending the cops who shot him. I am just pointing out that the air rifle was not a toy and that air rifles can, and do, seriously injure and kill people. Calling them toys simply gives people who want to blame the victim a way to discredit every other argument you make.

 

[Derec]

Of course not. Just the ones that don't call the police ahead of time to make them fully aware of the fact that a black guy with a semi-automatic rifle and a pistol strapped to his hip will be attending an obamacare rally, escorted by a camera crew, for the purposes of an ill-conceived publicity stunt.

Huey Newton wasn't an actor and he wasn't shot while open carrying and neither was he shot by either police or some white vigilante.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I'd like to see this police force's official 'conditions of deadly force' definition.

In the Navy, we basically couldn't shoot to kill until someone was dead. Him still holding a weapon when told to drop it is not a condition of deadly force. Not a sane one, anyway. Unless he's actively pointing it at someone, aiming to shoot. Deadly force usually isn't authorized until lesser conditions have been met. Asking him to set it down is a lesser condition, but maybe asking a second time? With a 'DROP IT OR WE'LL SHOOT!' warning?

The commentators on several news articles think it's quite justified that police act like the Detroit shooter, and open up any time they're afraid. Or anxious.
But this dead guy IS one of the people the cops are supposed to protect, too. That's why they HAVE 'conditions of deadly force' lists in the first place. Because you're not supposed to shoot 'just because.'

 

[Derec]

I'd like to see this police force's official 'conditions of deadly force' definition.

That's a good point and pretty much the only valid one. We do not know exactly how much warning he was given or where he was pointing the gun at the time shots were fired so it could either be justified or not justified.
The problem is that the discussion has been bogged down with nonsensical arguments like that the gun was a toy (implying use of deadly force was never justified) or that he was shot on sight (which he wasn't) or that the shooting was racially motivated (for which there is zero evidence).

 

[Ford]

I am not defending the cops who shot him. I am just pointing out that the air rifle was not a toy and that air rifles can, and do, seriously injure and kill people.

I would counter that by describing air rifles as potentially deadly weapons you are offering up an excuse for the deadly force involved.

Leaving aside for a moment the "toy" characterization, and accepting that - under relatively rare circumstances - an air rifle can cause serious injury, does that justify a deadly force response from and LEO?

I mean maybe if the perp was pointing the air rifle at a kid's eye and saying "I'm gonna kill this motherfucking kid if you come closer."

But "hey, it ain't even a real gun" BLAMMO.


Unless of course you're telling me that trained police officers can't tell the difference between an air rifle and an assault rifle?

 

[RavenSky]

Derec STOP with your embellishments unless you have video tape or some sort of evidence. You have ZERO evidence that John Crawford was "brandishing" anything or, especially, that "he failed to comply with police orders to drop it." Yes yes yes, I know I know... you will trot out these quotes from the stalkers *witnesses*

He was holding a cellphone between his left ear and left shoulder while messing with the rifle, she said. “He just kept messing with it and I heard a clicking,” she said.

Ronald Ritche said the man “was just waving it at children and people. Items…. I couldn’t hear anything that he was saying. I’m thinking that he is either going to rob the place or he’s there to shoot somebody else.” The man looked kind of serious, Ronald Ritchie said. “He didn’t really want to be looked at and when people did look at him, he was pointing the gun at them. He was pointing at people. Children walking by.”

Ronald Ritchie said the man wasn’t pointing the weapon at people as if he was going to shoot, but rather waving it in their direction as a threat.

But his girlfriend reports

that she heard him address someone and say “it’s not real,” at which point he was shot and then someone (presumably police officers) yell at him to “get on the ground,” after he’d already been shot.

http://bearingarms.com/dayton-walmart-shooting-innocent-man-swatted-death/2/

Are you going to dare suggest that the girlfriend is a liar while the two Walmart busy-bodies aren't?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Of course not. Just the ones that don't call the police ahead of time to make them fully aware of the fact that a black guy with a semi-automatic rifle and a pistol strapped to his hip will be attending an obamacare rally, escorted by a camera crew, for the purposes of an ill-conceived publicity stunt.

Huey Newton wasn't an actor and he wasn't shot while open carrying and neither was he shot by either police or some white vigilante.

And monkeys didn't fly out of my ass within the past five minutes.

This, too, is somehow relevant.

 

[Ford]

Are you going to dare suggest that the girlfriend is a liar while the two Walmart busy-bodies aren't?

The girlfriend is black. Therefore <snip> assumes she's lying.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Are you going to dare suggest that the girlfriend is a liar while the two Walmart busy-bodies aren't?

He doesn't have to suggest that at all. Given that she is both black and a woman, she is OBVIOUSLY a liar.

 

[Derec]

Derec STOP with your embellishments unless you have video tape or some sort of evidence. You have ZERO evidence that John Crawford was "brandishing" anything or, especially, that "he failed to comply with police orders to drop it." Yes yes yes, I know I know... you will trot out these quotes from the stalkers *witnesses*

Witness statements are evidence. Especially statements by disinterested witnesses.

Are you going to dare suggest that the girlfriend is a liar while the two Walmart busy-bodies aren't?

That is very possible since his girlfriend is not an impartial, disinterested witness but rather she has a vested interest in making Crawford look good.