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Cutting the deficit, post 2017 tax reform

The "jobs! jobs! jobs!" are not worth the cost. It's only the genuine production that has value.

The point of legitimate economic activity is to produce wealth for people, so they can have the stuff they want.

Without people who are employed you don't have a market to sell "genuine production".

What's more, most of the deficit does not even go toward the creation of "phoney jobs". When your Democrats are in power it mainly serves to produce bandaids for those who are already unemployed, education and health programs. When your Republicans are at the helm, most of it goes towards making the rich richer and the military.

Besides that, don't forget that historically the Republicans keep increasing deficits, while the Democrats keep decreasing them.

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But why are they "giving the rich more wealth"? The reason is in order to stimulate the economy and create more jobs.
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Guess who they are laughing about? Yes, you. You among millions of other suckers. There's a difference between what they tell you and what actually happens. I suspect understanding historical data is beyond you, so here is an explanation in pictures.

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Only a fool thinks that tax cuts don't stimulate some hiring.

Depends on who gets the tax cuts. Giving the rich more wealth does not increase demand, so there's no point in increasing production. Anyway, giving more wealth to the rich tends to result in the recipients of such largesse to buy another painting done by a long-dead starving artist for $127 million to add to their collection. If you cut taxes in the lower income brackets, on the other hand, you immediately increase demand, and with it a need to ramp up production, because in this case the recipient of the largesse will spend the money immediately on things like a much overdue purchase of a new car, the long hoped for holiday or whatever.

I don't know anyone who is foolish enough to say tax cuts don't stimulate some hiring. I do know plenty who are smart enough to realise that tax cuts to the wealthy have a negligible effect on increasing demand and therefore production which in turn increases hiring when compared to giving tax cuts to those who will immediately spend the increased disposable income on stuff that does need to be produced.
 
Isn't there such a thing as bad debt? (including bad public debt)



What does it mean to say it doesn't have to be repaid? Don't bond-holders receive back the principal they paid? That repayment might be offset by new bond-buyers, or, maybe not. It's not a certainty that all the earlier principal paid back will be offset by new buying. So isn't it false to say it "never has to be repaid"? It is repaid just as private debt is.


Like Jason, you have no understanding that a dollar spent into the private sector is an asset to the private sector and a liability to the govt. Collectively, these liabilities are the national debt. If the govt taxed back all of its spending every year, the private sector wouldn't be able to save any of it. Selling exports is another way to accumulate savings, but we buy more than we sell. So, again, deficits are necessary to satisfy the savings desire of the private sector.

Currency issuing govts are not like households or businesses. They create the money they need, ex nihilo. They can never run out, they can always pay bills due in their own currency. No matter how large ten gazillions, whatever. It's just a number. The US cannot be forced to default, not by foreign powers, not by the bond markets.



"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that. So there is zero probability of default." Alan Greenspan

“In the case of United States, default is absolutely impossible. All U.S. government debt is denominated in U.S. dollar assets.” Peter Zeihan, Vice President of Analysis for STRATFOR

“In the case of governments boasting monetary sovereignty and debt denominated in its own currency, like the United States (but also Japan and the UK), it is technically impossible to fall into debt default.” Erwan Mahe, European asset allocation and options strategies adviser

“There is never a risk of default for a sovereign nation that issues its own free-floating currency and where its debts are denominated in that currency.” Mike Norman, Chief Economist for John Thomas Financial

“There is no inherent limit on federal expenses and therefore on federal spending…When the U.S. government decides to spend fiat money, it adds to its banking reserve system and when it taxes or borrows (issues Treasury securities) it drains reserves from its banking system. These reserve operations are done solely to maintain the target Federal Funds rate.” Monty Agarwal , managing partner and chief investment officer of MA Managed Futures Fund

"As the sole manufacturer of dollars, whose debt is denominated in dollars, the U.S. government can never become insolvent, i.e., unable to pay its bills. In this sense, the government is not dependent on credit markets to remain operational." Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

“A sovereign government can always make payments as they come due by crediting bank accounts — something recognized by Chairman Ben Bernanke when he said the Fed spends by marking up the size of the reserve accounts of banks.” L. Randall Wray, Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri-Kansas City and a Senior Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute



If you want to critique the money system, you need to understand it. And you don't.

This is babble unless you state when debt is more harm than good, which you do not. I.e., to increase the federal deficit to $4 trillion would be more harm than good, wouldn't it? even though it would be a tremendous "economic stimulus"?

Unless you believe all debt is inherently good, no matter how huge the debt becomes.

What's an example of bad debt, and why was it bad? And how do you know that chronic debt with 100% Debt-to-GDP is necessarily good for the country? What makes it good? Unless you're just saying ALL debt is necessarily good? Why must a surplus always be wrong, in every case? Why was the U.S. wrong to run some surpluses in the 19th century?

Surpluses are not alway wrong. I never said so.

The danger from govt spending is inflation. It doesn't matter if the spending is deficit spending or not. A country with a trading surplus could easily overspend if the govt also deficit spends, since both increase the financial assets in the economy. Running a surplus then decreases the amount of financial assets which is deflationary. You might then think we must always run trade surpluses. However, not everyone can. For every surplus there must be a deficit, it's a simple accounting principle.

With our geopolitical position as world leader, trade deficits are unavoidable. With the dollar as reserve currency, other countries need dollars.

What appears to be difficult for you to understand is that the ability to run a trade deficit is a situation which countries aspire to. It takes much more effort to produce and sell goods than to simply buy them with your currency. Exporters must practice domestic austerity, in order to maintain their competitive advantage. A simple way of stating it is the purpose of exports is to obtain imports.

Debt, surpluses, deficits, none of them are wholly good or bad. All can work for the public interest, or against it depending on the context.

Your rigidity of thinking makes you poorly equipped for economics.

Growth doesn't occur unless someone spends more than their income. Therefore, growth doesn't occur without debt. IOW debt is essential. The problem is that interest often accrues faster than growth, so it's easy for debt to become unmanageable.

Sovereign currency govt's are special in that they create the currency, which is also in a sense debt. Because a unit of currency is a promise by govt to honor that currency when paying taxes.
 
There's never been an economy this large. So, no. But so what?

First of all, the debt is not debt in the traditional sense. It's a legacy of the times when the money supply was fixed to a commodity. That has not been the case since 1971.

Now it's a reserve management operation, a way for our trading partners to earn interest on the dollars we pay for imports, and corporate welfare.

There is no issue with repaying the debt. It never has to be repaid. It's money we owe ourselves.

Like Jason, you have no understanding that a dollar spent into the private sector is an asset to the private sector and a liability to the govt. Collectively, these liabilities are the national debt. If the govt taxed back all of its spending every year, the private sector wouldn't be able to save any of it. Selling exports is another way to accumulate savings, but we buy more than we sell. So, again, deficits are necessary to satisfy the savings desire of the private sector.

Currency issuing govts are not like households or businesses. They create the money they need, ex nihilo. They can never run out, they can always pay bills due in their own currency. No matter how large ten gazillions, whatever. It's just a number. The US cannot be forced to default, not by foreign powers, not by the bond markets.



"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that. So there is zero probability of default." Alan Greenspan

“In the case of United States, default is absolutely impossible. All U.S. government debt is denominated in U.S. dollar assets.” Peter Zeihan, Vice President of Analysis for STRATFOR

“In the case of governments boasting monetary sovereignty and debt denominated in its own currency, like the United States (but also Japan and the UK), it is technically impossible to fall into debt default.” Erwan Mahe, European asset allocation and options strategies adviser

“There is never a risk of default for a sovereign nation that issues its own free-floating currency and where its debts are denominated in that currency.” Mike Norman, Chief Economist for John Thomas Financial

“There is no inherent limit on federal expenses and therefore on federal spending…When the U.S. government decides to spend fiat money, it adds to its banking reserve system and when it taxes or borrows (issues Treasury securities) it drains reserves from its banking system. These reserve operations are done solely to maintain the target Federal Funds rate.” Monty Agarwal , managing partner and chief investment officer of MA Managed Futures Fund

"As the sole manufacturer of dollars, whose debt is denominated in dollars, the U.S. government can never become insolvent, i.e., unable to pay its bills. In this sense, the government is not dependent on credit markets to remain operational." Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

“A sovereign government can always make payments as they come due by crediting bank accounts — something recognized by Chairman Ben Bernanke when he said the Fed spends by marking up the size of the reserve accounts of banks.” L. Randall Wray, Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri-Kansas City and a Senior Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute



If you want to critique the money system, you need to understand it. And you don't.

The problem isn't my not understanding Magic Money Tree, but in that you not seeing that Magic Money Tree is absurd. But let us take the quotes you've collected.

Yes, in a very narrow sense it is possible for the government to never default because of central banking. In a very narrow sense indeed. You will get the exact number of notes you were issued, but those notes will have less value. What proponents of Magic Money Tree never consider is "the value of the currency". By devaluing the currency it is possible to make sure everyone gets the currency promised, but they still won't get the value loaned. Greenspan knew better when he said that the government cannot default.
 
There's never been an economy this large. So, no. But so what?

First of all, the debt is not debt in the traditional sense. It's a legacy of the times when the money supply was fixed to a commodity. That has not been the case since 1971.

Now it's a reserve management operation, a way for our trading partners to earn interest on the dollars we pay for imports, and corporate welfare.

There is no issue with repaying the debt. It never has to be repaid. It's money we owe ourselves.

Like Jason, you have no understanding that a dollar spent into the private sector is an asset to the private sector and a liability to the govt. Collectively, these liabilities are the national debt. If the govt taxed back all of its spending every year, the private sector wouldn't be able to save any of it. Selling exports is another way to accumulate savings, but we buy more than we sell. So, again, deficits are necessary to satisfy the savings desire of the private sector.

Currency issuing govts are not like households or businesses. They create the money they need, ex nihilo. They can never run out, they can always pay bills due in their own currency. No matter how large ten gazillions, whatever. It's just a number. The US cannot be forced to default, not by foreign powers, not by the bond markets.



"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that. So there is zero probability of default." Alan Greenspan

“In the case of United States, default is absolutely impossible. All U.S. government debt is denominated in U.S. dollar assets.” Peter Zeihan, Vice President of Analysis for STRATFOR

“In the case of governments boasting monetary sovereignty and debt denominated in its own currency, like the United States (but also Japan and the UK), it is technically impossible to fall into debt default.” Erwan Mahe, European asset allocation and options strategies adviser

“There is never a risk of default for a sovereign nation that issues its own free-floating currency and where its debts are denominated in that currency.” Mike Norman, Chief Economist for John Thomas Financial

“There is no inherent limit on federal expenses and therefore on federal spending…When the U.S. government decides to spend fiat money, it adds to its banking reserve system and when it taxes or borrows (issues Treasury securities) it drains reserves from its banking system. These reserve operations are done solely to maintain the target Federal Funds rate.” Monty Agarwal , managing partner and chief investment officer of MA Managed Futures Fund

"As the sole manufacturer of dollars, whose debt is denominated in dollars, the U.S. government can never become insolvent, i.e., unable to pay its bills. In this sense, the government is not dependent on credit markets to remain operational." Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

“A sovereign government can always make payments as they come due by crediting bank accounts — something recognized by Chairman Ben Bernanke when he said the Fed spends by marking up the size of the reserve accounts of banks.” L. Randall Wray, Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri-Kansas City and a Senior Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute



If you want to critique the money system, you need to understand it. And you don't.

The problem isn't my not understanding Magic Money Tree, but in that you not seeing that Magic Money Tree is absurd. But let us take the quotes you've collected.

Yes, in a very narrow sense it is possible for the government to never default because of central banking. In a very narrow sense indeed. You will get the exact number of notes you were issued, but those notes will have less value. What proponents of Magic Money Tree never consider is "the value of the currency". By devaluing the currency it is possible to make sure everyone gets the currency promised, but they still won't get the value loaned. Greenspan knew better when he said that the government cannot default.

In summary: "inflation is possible".

Well, duh.

However a quick look at the current rate of inflation suggests that this is not an issue with the current levels of budget deficit. Indeed, a touch more inflation would probably be a good thing right now.
 
Would a $5 trillion deficit be "evil"? How do you know?

You are demanding everyone just believe you - that gov't debt is evil because we will not be able to pay it back.

That's what you're saying too, because you're against increasing the deficit to $4 trillion in order to pay for the federal budget. And you're probably against raising it to 3 or 2 trillion, to pay at least half the federal budget and "stimulate" the economy or produce whatever benefit we're supposed to get from the deficit. Yet you're saying that debt would be "evil" -- and we should just believe you that $2 trillion deficit would be evil.

Why should we believe that? You've given us no fact-based or reality-based reasons.

So then you claim it would be OK to increase the deficit to $4 trillion per year, so we can pay for everything and still have our "jobs". There's no limit.
That is non-responsive to my post. You have given no factual reason nor theoretical reasons to believe you.

Neither do you give any reason to believe you that a $2/$4 trillion deficit would be evil, as you're implying it would be by refusing to consider it as a possibility. Is it Trump you are trusting to dictate how much deficit is OK and at what point it becomes evil? Which demagogue/pundit are you trusting to dictate this to you? Why should society trust your demagogue?

Basically your argument is "I don't know and I am afraid, so believe me".

That's what you're saying too. You don't know why a $2/$3 trillion deficit would be evil, but you're afraid and demand that we believe you without any reason, but also that we trust President Trump that $700 billion is not evil.

Sorry, that is not a convincing argument. Give a rationale for the reason other than "I don't know".

It's the same as your rationale for claiming a $2/$3 trillion deficit would be evil. A deficit of $700 billion or $800 billion is evil, because of the excess obligations it imposes on the nation 5-10 years later, which is risky, and for which no one can name a benefit we gain which is worth the cost and risk. Even if it's less evil than a $2 trillion deficit, a lesser evil is still evil. And you cannot explain why $2 trillion is evil but $700 billion is not. Other than to demand blind faith in your President Trump because he's wiser and surely knows best.

The only alternative is the notion that we might as well raise deficits as high as necessary to pay the federal budget entirely, and thus maximum economic "stimulus" so no taxes are necessary and everyone can be provided with a "job" paid by debt increasing every year. (If you're right that historically there's never been harm caused by excess debt.)

You are employing the fallacy of the excluded middle. There are plenty of alternatives between run high surpluses and run high deficits to pay the federal budget entirely.

And you are demanding higher deficits than most historically, and demanding that the middle course of balancing the budget is always wrong, though not giving any reason why. Except that we should trust you and your champion President Trump who knows best, according to you. Maybe he will pin a medal on you for your loyal support for his deficits.
 
The problem isn't my not understanding Magic Money Tree, but in that you not seeing that Magic Money Tree is absurd. But let us take the quotes you've collected.

Yes, in a very narrow sense it is possible for the government to never default because of central banking. In a very narrow sense indeed. You will get the exact number of notes you were issued, but those notes will have less value. What proponents of Magic Money Tree never consider is "the value of the currency". By devaluing the currency it is possible to make sure everyone gets the currency promised, but they still won't get the value loaned. Greenspan knew better when he said that the government cannot default.

What's this narrow sense of non-default? As opposed to what?

And MMT certainly accounts for inflation. Which btw is under 2%, and so are the long range forecasts.

What's absurd about MMT? Do you have any arguments or are you only resorting to hand waving and assuming a superior air?
 
Can the US just "print money" to pay all the federal budget?

First of all, the debt is not debt in the traditional sense. It's a legacy of the times when the money supply was fixed to a commodity. That has not been the case since 1971.

That doesn't explain anything. You have to compare today's debt economy with that of the 19th century, or up to 1930, when the only debt was war debt, which was then paid down in the years following the war.

We changed this beginning with the 1930s, when we began running up debt in order to goose the economy rather than to pay for war.

Why did the country do OK up until 1930, but then have to change and begin running chronic deficits in order to goose the economy? From 1930-1970 we did this, gradually increasing our dependency on these annual deficits, with no abrupt change in 1971. We departed from this trend in the late 1990s, returning to zero deficits for 2-4 years.

Why did the economy not require the chronic deficits up to 1930, and in the late 1990s, but did require them after 1930-1995? It has nothing to do with the change in 1971. We were already running the chronic deficits BEFORE 1971, and we stopped doing the chronic deficits for a short time in the late 90s. So how can a change in 1971 explain this?


Now it's a reserve management operation, a way for our trading partners to earn interest on the dollars we pay for imports, and corporate welfare.

There's no need for us to provide a way for our trading partners to earn interest on dollars.

You're not explaining why we had to start running these chronic deficits beginning in the 1930s, but not before. Or why we were able to do without them in the late 1990s.


There is no issue with repaying the debt. It never has to be repaid. It's money we owe ourselves.

That's babble. Bond-holders have to be repaid, and they are repaid. You cannot explain this by throwing around slogans such as "it never has to be repaid" or "we owe it to ourselves."

Give us a no-nonsense reason why we had to start running these on-going deficits every year beginning in the 30s.


Like Jason, you have no understanding that a dollar spent into the private sector is an asset to the private sector and a liability to the govt. Collectively, these liabilities are the national debt. If the govt taxed back all of its spending every year, the private sector wouldn't be able to save any of it.

Do you have figures showing that there were no private savings in the late 1990s when the gov't "taxed back" all of its spending?

And likewise do you have figures to show that there were no savings in the U.S. prior to 1930, except during the high-debt years when they ran deficits to pay for war? I doubt that you have data on which to base this savings theory.

It's not true that the gov't must run up chronic deficits in order for there to be private savings. There have been private savings in years when the gov't ran surpluses. If perhaps those savings were somewhat less than in the deficit years -- then so what? Who says how much exactly the private sector must save? Who are the overlord barons who presume to dictate this?


Selling exports is another way to accumulate savings, but we buy more than we sell. So, again, deficits are necessary to satisfy the savings desire of the private sector.

You keep repeating this slogan. But you don't have any facts to prove it. You are just seeking an excuse to justify chronic deficits. Where are the facts to show that no country ever balanced its budget without also losing all its private savings?


Currency issuing govts are not like households or businesses. They create the money they need, ex nihilo. They can never run out, they can always pay bills due in their own currency.

Of course they can run up inflation 1000% per year (or per week), like Germany in the 1920s. This is not how the U.S. is paying its bills. There are some manipulations to modify the money in circulation by small measures, but this only makes sense to stabilize the inflation rate, or maybe push interest rates up or down 1/10 of a point -- but not to pay bills such as for funding defense or welfare etc.


No matter how large ten gazillions, whatever. It's just a number.

You're not getting this from any responsible source on economics. No economist is saying the gov't can run up bills tens of gazillions or trillions or billions and it doesn't matter because the gov't can simply create the money they need ex nihilo.


The US cannot be forced to default, not by foreign powers, not by the bond markets.

There are ways the US could default. It will not simply "create the money they need, ex nihilo" to pay it. That might be worse than default.

The quotes (or misquotes) in your "show" text are being misused by you. None of those persons proposed that the US might ever resort to 1000% inflation to pay its bills. Just because it's technically possible doesn't mean it's a practical possibility. Default is more practical, or the lesser evil, than massive inflation.




"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that. So there is zero probability of default." Alan Greenspan

“In the case of United States, default is absolutely impossible. All U.S. government debt is denominated in U.S. dollar assets.” Peter Zeihan, Vice President of Analysis for STRATFOR

“In the case of governments boasting monetary sovereignty and debt denominated in its own currency, like the United States (but also Japan and the UK), it is technically impossible to fall into debt default.” Erwan Mahe, European asset allocation and options strategies adviser

“There is never a risk of default for a sovereign nation that issues its own free-floating currency and where its debts are denominated in that currency.” Mike Norman, Chief Economist for John Thomas Financial

“There is no inherent limit on federal expenses and therefore on federal spending…When the U.S. government decides to spend fiat money, it adds to its banking reserve system and when it taxes or borrows (issues Treasury securities) it drains reserves from its banking system. These reserve operations are done solely to maintain the target Federal Funds rate.” Monty Agarwal , managing partner and chief investment officer of MA Managed Futures Fund

"As the sole manufacturer of dollars, whose debt is denominated in dollars, the U.S. government can never become insolvent, i.e., unable to pay its bills. In this sense, the government is not dependent on credit markets to remain operational." Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

“A sovereign government can always make payments as they come due by crediting bank accounts — something recognized by Chairman Ben Bernanke when he said the Fed spends by marking up the size of the reserve accounts of banks.” L. Randall Wray, Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri-Kansas City and a Senior Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute



If you want to critique the money system, you need to understand it. And you don't.

Do you understand it? or only pretend to?

How about making a small step toward establishing your credibility on the above by citing for us the published sources for the "show" quotes. They sound like talking points from a Sri Quackananda sermon. Or taken out of context. It's difficult to imagine a Federal Reserve Chairman saying seriously that the US can just print money to pay its bills.
 
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That doesn't explain anything. You have to compare today's debt economy with that of the 19th century, or up to 1930, when the only debt was war debt, which was then paid down in the years following the war.

We changed this beginning with the 1930s, when we began running up debt in order to goose the economy rather than to pay for war.

Why did the country do OK up until 1930, but then have to change and begin running chronic deficits in order to goose the economy? From 1930-1970 we did this, gradually increasing our dependency on these annual deficits, with no abrupt change in 1971. We departed from this trend in the late 1990s, returning to zero deficits for 2-4 years.

Why did the economy not require the chronic deficits up to 1930, and in the late 1990s, but did require them after 1930-1995? It has nothing to do with the change in 1971. We were already running the chronic deficits BEFORE 1971, and we stopped doing the chronic deficits for a short time in the late 90s. So how can a change in 1971 explain this?

When I look in wikipedia, I see that the US has had continuous national debt except for one year, 1835-36. So I don't know what you're talking about.

Would you say that as a whole, we are wealthier or poorer than say 1930? Is our standard of living higher or lower? Most everybody would say higher. Even if there are more dollars that are individually worth less than they were 80 years ago, we are far better off. So exactly what evil is govt debt perpetuating?

That's babble. Bond-holders have to be repaid, and they are repaid. You cannot explain this by throwing around slogans such as "it never has to be repaid" or "we owe it to ourselves."

Give us a no-nonsense reason why we had to start running these on-going deficits every year beginning in the 30s.

I've explained it over and over. You just don't get it.

The govt has a monopoly on issuing the currency. It can issue all it wants. So bond holders will always be paid. The debt can be rolled over continuously, forever. Or, since there is no longer a commodity restraint on the money supply, the issuance of debt could be halted altogether, and all outstanding bonds retired.

Do you have figures showing that there were no private savings in the late 1990s when the gov't "taxed back" all of its spending?

I never said there were no private savings. I said that in the aggregate private financial assets diminished.

Here's a link to charts of the sectoral balances. Some have been posted in this thread, but I guess you didn't pay attention.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cha...8PTYAhVIvFMKHQzQAIYQ_AUICigB&biw=1273&bih=746

And likewise do you have figures to show that there were no savings in the U.S. prior to 1930, except during the high-debt years when they ran deficits to pay for war? I doubt that you have data on which to base this savings theory.

I've never said there were no savings.

It's not true that the gov't must run up chronic deficits in order for there to be private savings. There have been private savings in years when the gov't ran surpluses. If perhaps those savings were somewhat less than in the deficit years -- then so what? Who says how much exactly the private sector must save? Who are the overlord barons who presume to dictate this?

All dollars come from the govt. If all dollars spent into the economy in a given year are taxed back, then there are no new ones. If a govt surplus is run, there will be fewer dollars.

Selling exports is another way to accumulate savings, but we buy more than we sell. So, again, deficits are necessary to satisfy the savings desire of the private sector.

You keep repeating this slogan. But you don't have any facts to prove it. You are just seeking an excuse to justify chronic deficits. Where are the facts to show that no country ever balanced its budget without also losing all its private savings?

Again, I never said that.

Here's wikipedia on sectoral balances
In any given time period, the government’s budget can be either in deficit or in surplus. A deficit occurs when the government spends more than it taxes; and a surplus occurs when a government taxes more than it spends. Sectoral balances analysis states that as a matter of accounting, it follows that government budget deficits add net financial assets to the private sector. This is because a budget deficit means that a government has deposited more money into private bank accounts than it has removed in taxes. A budget surplus means the opposite: in total, the government has removed more money from private bank accounts via taxes than it has put back in via spending.

Therefore, budget deficits, by definition, are equivalent to adding net financial assets to the private sector; whereas budget surpluses remove financial assets from the private sector.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_balances

Currency issuing govts are not like households or businesses. They create the money they need, ex nihilo. They can never run out, they can always pay bills due in their own currency.

Of course they can run up inflation 1000% per year (or per week), like Germany in the 1920s. This is not how the U.S. is paying its bills. There are some manipulations to modify the money in circulation by small measures, but this only makes sense to stabilize the inflation rate, or maybe push interest rates up or down 1/10 of a point -- but not to pay bills such as for funding defense or welfare etc.

Of course it's to pay bills. What else is money for?

No matter how large ten gazillions, whatever. It's just a number.

You're not getting this from any responsible source on economics. No economist is saying the gov't can run up bills tens of gazillions or trillions or billions and it doesn't matter because the gov't can simply create the money they need ex nihilo. Stop smoking whatever it is and get serious.

Again you miss the point. Because the govt has the capability doesn't mean it should be done. Try to focus.

The US cannot be forced to default, not by foreign powers, not by the bond markets.

There are ways the US could default. It will not simply "create the money they need, ex nihilo" to pay it. That might be worse than default.

I said the US can't be forced to default.

The quotes (or misquotes) in your "show" text are being misused by you. None of those persons proposed that the US might ever resort to 1000% inflation to pay its bills. Just because it's technically possible doesn't mean it's a practical possibility. Default is more practical, or the lesser evil, than massive inflation.

Who would make such a recommendation? You're being ridiculous.


If you want to critique the money system, you need to understand it. And you don't.

Do you understand it? or only pretend to?

I think I have a better understanding than you with your Old Testament Thou Shalt Not Have Debt mentality.

How about making a small step toward establishing your credibility on the above by citing for us the published sources for the "show" quotes. They sound like something from a Sri Quackananda investors' motivational pep rally. Or taken out of context. It's difficult to imagine a Federal Reserve Chairman saying seriously that the US can just print money to pay its bills.

Google them, and show me if there's any misrepresentation there.

Or save yourself some trouble and read this:

https://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf
 
The problem isn't my not understanding Magic Money Tree, but in that you not seeing that Magic Money Tree is absurd. But let us take the quotes you've collected.

Yes, in a very narrow sense it is possible for the government to never default because of central banking. In a very narrow sense indeed. You will get the exact number of notes you were issued, but those notes will have less value. What proponents of Magic Money Tree never consider is "the value of the currency". By devaluing the currency it is possible to make sure everyone gets the currency promised, but they still won't get the value loaned. Greenspan knew better when he said that the government cannot default.

Then your problem would indeed appear to be not understanding MMT since its proponents consider just that in great detail.
 
I was not comparing Greece to Japan. My point was about owners of the debt. Japan does not have foreign debt. So effectively their debt is zero despite being #2 on that chart. Now virtually all Greece debt is to foreign entities (Germany&Co). US has large chunk of debt owned by China and already mentioned Japan and it is bad. Yes US can technically print dollars and ship them to Japan/China. But I doubt they will appreciate such an obvious scam. So this "We can print money" theory is just theory. In practice they will say "Nope, you can't do that"

Leave Greece out of it altogether. You weaken your argument by including Greece. Everyone knows the dangers of borrowing foreign currencies, which in effect is Greece's situation.
Not so much danger as lack of advantage of being able to "print" money. In terms of amount of actual debt US is more close to Greece than to Japan which has no real debt, despite ranked number 1 in debt/GDP ratio.
In the first place, what US trading partners agreed to is to accept dollars for goods. So they went to the trouble and expense of obtaining materials and fashioning goods, while we gave them dollars of which we have as many as we want. But instead of keeping a reserve account at the Fed, they buy Treasuries for the simple reason that they're interest bearing.

So if they want to use their natural and acquired resources and their labor to manufacture goods in obtain dollars in order to sink us - well, let them. We get the goods and they get dollars. Who wins?

What they've really done afaict is put themselves in the position of tying themselves to us, joining fates or whatever.

We're the number one debtor nation, but we're calling the shots because everyone is using and wanting dollars(which btw perpetuates the need to run trade deficits). I think it's basically a protection racket. We provide security, and in return countries accept dollars for goods.
China does not have to like that arrangement. They expect to get their money back in full.
I don't think anyone knows how it will end, but the only part that really worries me is how we treat our own population. Instead of a healthy, educated, productive, innovative workforce, we prefer to put up obstacles to these goals and let insiders profit. And no planning at all, let the money boys call the shots.
I agree. And it is really my point against perpetual deficit and debt increases.
 

Look at that graph--note how it's going down under Democrat presidents and going up under Republican ones?

And the big jump with Obama is because the Republicans ran the economy off the rails.
Yes.

I tried to find a budget chart covering the past five decades that included the various presidents, but all I could come up with was this one:

Us_budgets.jpg

Looks as though those people who are worried about budget deficits ought to be voting for the Democrats.

Trump's tax cuts will blow the budget out big time too.
 
Not so much danger as lack of advantage of being able to "print" money. In terms of amount of actual debt US is more close to Greece than to Japan which has no real debt, despite ranked number 1 in debt/GDP ratio.

These distinctions of "real" or "actual" debt as opposed to I guess unreal debt, do you have any sources or are you speculating?

Being able to print your own money gives a country more flexibility. But again, comparing Greece to the US is fallacious, since the US, unless it starts borrowing in foreign currencies, will never be in Greece's situation.

Japan may be holding more of it's own debt, but it's still primarily an export economy, tho it's current running a trade deficit. I'm guessing that that ties you to your trading partners as much as their holding your debt, just in different ways. One way you want your partners to be satisfied with your currency, and the other with your trade agreements and products.

In the first place, what US trading partners agreed to is to accept dollars for goods. So they went to the trouble and expense of obtaining materials and fashioning goods, while we gave them dollars of which we have as many as we want. But instead of keeping a reserve account at the Fed, they buy Treasuries for the simple reason that they're interest bearing.

So if they want to use their natural and acquired resources and their labor to manufacture goods in obtain dollars in order to sink us - well, let them. We get the goods and they get dollars. Who wins?

What they've really done afaict is put themselves in the position of tying themselves to us, joining fates or whatever.

We're the number one debtor nation, but we're calling the shots because everyone is using and wanting dollars(which btw perpetuates the need to run trade deficits). I think it's basically a protection racket. We provide security, and in return countries accept dollars for goods.

China does not have to like that arrangement. They expect to get their money back in full.

Which means using their leverage as you imagine would amount to shooting themselves in the foot.

I agree. And it is really my point against perpetual deficit and debt increases.

I have no idea what this means. If you're talking about US national debt, there's no danger at all from it.
 
China does not have to like that arrangement. They expect to get their money back in full.
.

Since China perforce bought their US bonds with US dollars, and since the US (if it has to) can print dollars to redeem the bonds, China will get their money back in full.
 
These distinctions of "real" or "actual" debt as opposed to I guess unreal debt, do you have any sources or are you speculating?

Being able to print your own money gives a country more flexibility. But again, comparing Greece to the US is fallacious, since the US, unless it starts borrowing in foreign currencies, will never be in Greece's situation.
Stop this fixation on printing money. Greece problem is not the fact that they can't print money, their problem is that they borrowed money and then wasted it. US has similar problem - money were wasted.
Japan may be holding more of it's own debt,
Not more, pretty much everything, plus they hold shitload of US debt.
but it's still primarily an export economy, tho it's current running a trade deficit.
No, they don't, they export more than they import.
I'm guessing that that ties you to your trading partners as much as their holding your debt, just in different ways. One way you want your partners to be satisfied with your currency, and the other with your trade agreements and products.



China does not have to like that arrangement. They expect to get their money back in full.

Which means using their leverage as you imagine would amount to shooting themselves in the foot.
For now yes. In the future we don't know.
I agree. And it is really my point against perpetual deficit and debt increases.

I have no idea what this means. If you're talking about US national debt, there's no danger at all from it.
You contradict yourself now because you said earlier:
I don't think anyone knows how it will end
 
Stop this fixation on printing money. Greece problem is not the fact that they can't print money, their problem is that they borrowed money and then wasted it. US has similar problem - money were wasted.

Critical facts can't be hand waved away. That you think so only demonstrates your ignorance.

No, they don't, they export more than they import.
No:
Between 1980 and 2010 Japan had been recording trade surpluses every year due to rising exports. But since the Fukushima nuclear disaster in March 2011, trade balance swing to deficit due to the weakening of the Japanese yen and increased purchases of fossil fuels and gas. In 2015, trade gap fell 77.9 percent from a record high deficit in the previous year, helped by plunge in oil prices. In 2015, the biggest trade surpluses were recorded with: United States, Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore. The biggest trade deficits were recorded with: China, Australia, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Russia and Malaysia. This page provides - Japan Balance of Trade - actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and news. Japan Balance of Trade - actual data, historical chart and calendar of releases - was last updated on January of 2018.

https://tradingeconomics.com/japan/balance-of-trade


I agree. And it is really my point against perpetual deficit and debt increases.

I have no idea what this means. If you're talking about US national debt, there's no danger at all from it.
You contradict yourself now because you said earlier:
I don't think anyone knows how it will end

Not a contradiction, because I was referring to the US' preeminent geopolitical situation, the trade deficit, and the dollars status as reserve currency, not the ND.
 
China does not have to like that arrangement. They expect to get their money back in full.
.

Since China perforce bought their US bonds with US dollars, and since the US (if it has to) can print dollars to redeem the bonds, China will get their money back in full.

Russia and China started a policy of using their own currency when they make economic trades between themselves, a first step to stop using the dollar later on in other economic trades with other countries of the world.

This is not news. Actually, the invasion to Iraq was because Saddam Hussein dictated the use of Euros only for oil trade. This should mean that other Middle East nations could copy that policy and the US economy should be disastrously affected with billions of dollars coming back creating deflation.

This is the reason why the US has the focus to destroy Russia as it did with Iraq. So far India accepts gold only, and in the future other countries might copy the initiative of Russia and China.

Years ago, European economists made a complaint about the printing of dollars without gold and silver back up. But, as the Euro started to do the same, just printing money without "funds", the news about how valid is the dollar was to say: the dollar is backed up with "confidence".

Until today I don't know what he hell "confidence" means, but the economies of the world still are going up. Of course, drugs money is what has increased the economy in many countries, even when such currency is more a piece of paper than a solid bill with gold or silver as a back up.

China's mistake was to ask currency as payment. Today, they have billions of dollars which in reality have no value. If you don't believe me, then look for the remodeling of Fort Knox to increase its size and put more gold bars inside, or check how many more similar forts have been built recently for the same purpose. Lol.

Some money was coming back very fast after Russia and China decided to stop using dollars in some trades. The money was coming back... it was more and more close to the US land... it was touching the limit of the nautical miles of sovereignty... those dollars were visible with binoculars by people in the beach... the unwanted dollars without funds were swimming in direction to the ports and business located on the shores... the green color of their faces was more noticeable with naked eyes... they are now this close to finally put one foot over the sand....

Suddenly, a strong wind pulled them back and they landed in Cuba.

Smart president Obama found a "hole" where those dollars will be storage, circulate inside the island and never come back to the US.

Yeap.

Our politicians are corrupt but not stupid.

See?

The Federal Reserve can make trillions of dollars without funds and the US will find a place where to make them circulate.
 
Critical facts can't be hand waved away. That you think so only demonstrates your ignorance.
It's you who does the handwaving here. I don't dispute advantage of having ability to print money. You on the other hand are handwaving the fact that both Greece and US have wasted money.
No:
Between 1980 and 2010 Japan had been recording trade surpluses every year due to rising exports. But since the Fukushima nuclear disaster in March 2011, trade balance swing to deficit due to the weakening of the Japanese yen and increased purchases of fossil fuels and gas. In 2015, trade gap fell 77.9 percent from a record high deficit in the previous year, helped by plunge in oil prices. In 2015, the biggest trade surpluses were recorded with: United States, Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore. The biggest trade deficits were recorded with: China, Australia, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Russia and Malaysia. This page provides - Japan Balance of Trade - actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and news. Japan Balance of Trade - actual data, historical chart and calendar of releases - was last updated on January of 2018.

https://tradingeconomics.com/japan/balance-of-trade
You are ignoring the fact that before having that nuclear plant disaster Japan had 30 years of positive trade balance. And this is when they got their 200% Debt/GDB ratio, not in the last 5 years when they had to deal with Fukishima.
I agree. And it is really my point against perpetual deficit and debt increases.

I have no idea what this means. If you're talking about US national debt, there's no danger at all from it.
You contradict yourself now because you said earlier:
I don't think anyone knows how it will end

Not a contradiction, because I was referring to the US' preeminent geopolitical situation, the trade deficit, and the dollars status as reserve currency, not the ND.
You said "nobody knows how it will end" and then "there's no danger at all".
 
It's you who does the handwaving here. I don't dispute advantage of having ability to print money. You on the other hand are handwaving the fact that both Greece and US have wasted money.
You are ignoring the fact that before having that nuclear plant disaster Japan had 30 years of positive trade balance. And this is when they got their 200% Debt/GDB ratio, not in the last 5 years when they had to deal with Fukishima.
I agree. And it is really my point against perpetual deficit and debt increases.

I have no idea what this means. If you're talking about US national debt, there's no danger at all from it.
You contradict yourself now because you said earlier:
I don't think anyone knows how it will end

Not a contradiction, because I was referring to the US' preeminent geopolitical situation, the trade deficit, and the dollars status as reserve currency, not the ND.
You said "nobody knows how it will end" and then "there's no danger at all".

That nuclear plant 'disaster' killed one person - who fell from a crane during the LARGEST EARTHQUAKE EVER RECORDED in Japan, and the fourth largest in recorded history; this triggered a tsunami more than 40 metres high, and killed at least 15,894 people, with another 2,546 missing and still unaccounted for. Not one person was killed by radiation exposure; two people were taken to hospital with radiation burns and made a full recovery.

Having most of your country smashed to bits by a massive earthquake and tsunami cannot possibly affect the economy.

So by all means let's forget about the earthquake and tsunami, and refer to the whole event as a 'nuclear disaster'. Because nuclear power doesn't get enough unjustified bad press. And the two guys with what amounts to serious sunburn probably overloaded the healthcare system. :rolleyes:
 
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