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White people are kinda assholes

Exactly what information is that? That white people are aware of the objective factors that are associated with black people in prison? It certainly does not support the OPs racist claim that "White people are assholes" or any other negative interpretation of the respondents in the study, unless you count being rationally sensitive to objective facts a negative trait.
So, it does support the OP claim that "White people are kinda assholes".

Its findings have no meaning and are equally compatible with countless mutually conflicting theories, therefore "negating" the findings is rather pointless since the findings don't have a point to begin with.
Imagine a study finds that a cocktail of 50 drugs has a net positive impact compared to no drugs at all, on the health of a select group of people who who are all decathlon athletes. The study is next to meaningless, some of the drugs could be very dangerous on their own, the effects could be the opposite for average people, there is no theoretical utility of the results. Yet, none of these critiques, "negate its findings".
I find your example confusing. It makes no sense to draw any conclusions about the health effects of a subset of those drugs from a study concluding that a cocktail of 50 drugs has a net positive impact.

This is not a minor quibble. Its a worthless study from which nothing can be inferred about the causes of human psychology or anything related to theories of racism. The fact that this journal chose to publish it, reveals its sadly low scientific standards (at minimum) and more likely its strong ideological bias to publish anything claiming evidence for racism, given that this journal likely rejects far superior and more informative studies that are not about racism. Such lousy and weak methodology that undermines any interpretation might be par for the course in research claiming to show racism, but its far below the standard in most decent psych journals on other topics.
Have you read the actual study? I cannot find an online version of it. From experience, online journalism depicting the results of studies usually is misleading. It is not clear to me that the study is about racism at all.
 
The important part of the article:

What the study means

As depressing as it is that telling white people about structural racism makes them support the structure more, what makes this study particularly interesting is that the criminal-justice reform movement isn't just made up of people concerned about racism. Some fiscal conservatives want to reform the system to spend less money on prisons; some cultural conservatives are motivated by Christian notions of mercy and forgiveness. And some of the states that have most successfully worked to reform their prison policies are red states.

The argument that prison should be reformed to save taxpayer dollars can seem a little bloodless. And it can lead to support for policies like private probation agencies that end up being just as repressive. But when it comes to persuading the public — at least the white public — that criminal-justice reform is a good idea, activists already have an idea of what works:

Why does this discussion seem to revolve entirely around the idiotic title of this thread? Do any of you care about criminal justice reform, or is your interest in this article based entirely on your disagreements about precisely what level of condemnation white people deserve? What I took from this article is that there are actual concrete goals, like criminal justice reform, which can be advanced in spite of racism, as long as those seeking to advance them make sure to use the right rhetorical strategies on the right audiences. Pointing out and curing individual unconscious racism is not a prerequisite to making headway towards fixing racist structures.

I don't care what percentage of "white people" are assholes. What's important is that assholes exist. And they are nonetheless potential allies.
 
Article said:
some cultural conservatives are motivated by Christian notions of mercy and forgiveness.

That's a new one for me. Cultural conservative Christians are motivated by notions of mercy and forgiveness???? Say what? I thought that was the liberal hippy type Christians.
 
Article said:
some cultural conservatives are motivated by Christian notions of mercy and forgiveness.

That's a new one for me. Cultural conservative Christians are motivated by notions of mercy and forgiveness????
No, no, By 'Christain NOTIONS of mercy and forgiveness.' Which means Christains rationalizing a whole bunch of shit to pretend that the words 'mercy' and 'forgiveness' can be applied.
 
So, it does support the OP claim that "White people are kinda assholes".

No, the fact that you think so, only supports the claim that some leftists are anti-white racists willing to misuse pseudo-evidence from low-quality mushy "science" to lend support to their desire to draw negative conclusions about all members of the category "white people".

Its findings have no meaning and are equally compatible with countless mutually conflicting theories, therefore "negating" the findings is rather pointless since the findings don't have a point to begin with.
Imagine a study finds that a cocktail of 50 drugs has a net positive impact compared to no drugs at all, on the health of a select group of people who who are all decathlon athletes. The study is next to meaningless, some of the drugs could be very dangerous on their own, the effects could be the opposite for average people, there is no theoretical utility of the results. Yet, none of these critiques, "negate its findings".
I find your example confusing. It makes no sense to draw any conclusions about the health effects of a subset of those drugs from a study concluding that a cocktail of 50 drugs has a net positive impact.

Exactly, just as it makes no sense to draw any conclusions about the effect of people thinking blacks comprise a higher or lower % of blacks when the manipulation is likely confounded with perceived age of the prisoners, overall similarity to self (which is a different variable than black or white), and likely depends the co-presence of numerous other factors, such as knowledge about factors that objectively covary with race (with more accurate knowledge producing a larger effect of the manipulation).

This is not a minor quibble. Its a worthless study from which nothing can be inferred about the causes of human psychology or anything related to theories of racism. The fact that this journal chose to publish it, reveals its sadly low scientific standards (at minimum) and more likely its strong ideological bias to publish anything claiming evidence for racism, given that this journal likely rejects far superior and more informative studies that are not about racism. Such lousy and weak methodology that undermines any interpretation might be par for the course in research claiming to show racism, but its far below the standard in most decent psych journals on other topics.
Have you read the actual study? I cannot find an online version of it. From experience, online journalism depicting the results of studies usually is misleading. It is not clear to me that the study is about racism at all.

Then, you are admitting that the OP is wrong and making a claim that has nothing to do with what the study is about, and therefore you yourself are wrong for claiming in this same post above that the OP is correct. Also, the source article is even more wrong in emphasizing "racism" in its title "Telling white people the criminal justice system is racist makes them like it more." No one in the study was ever told the system is racist. They were shown either more or less black faces in a video of prisoners", and its beyond and unreasonable leap to assume that most of them interpreted this as "the system is more racist".

BTW, the article itself does make unscientific direct assertions about the direct causal impact of skin color itself on the results:
"We argue that just as the Blackness of a specific defendant can increase people’s desire to punish, so too could the Blackness of the penal institution increase people’s acceptance of punitive policies."

Nowhere in the article to the authors even acknowledge any methodological limitations of their study, including those raised here or that would occur to any remotely scientifically literate reader or reviewer. They merely used actual mugshots and varied the % that were black, and make no effort to control for any other factors, including "age" as I mentioned but other obvious important variables, such as general appearance and emotional expression. The following words do not appear in their article: "age", "appearance", "emotion", "expression", "control", "confound", "limitation".

It is pseudo-science and will sadly add to the increasingly poor reputation of social psychology as rife with incompetence and fraud.
 
Why are you assuming that I am emotionally wrapped up in the situation?

Because the consequences of the example are so trivially easy to understand that I refuse to believe you can't understand them and instead assume something must be preventing you from thinking clearly regarding it.

So... you are using belief and refusal as your reasons? I suppose that's good to know.
 
Because the consequences of the example are so trivially easy to understand that I refuse to believe you can't understand them and instead assume something must be preventing you from thinking clearly regarding it.

So... you are using belief and refusal as your reasons? I suppose that's good to know.

I know people who are busy pretending to be rational like to make these kinds of comments and try to cast doubt on other people's assumptions etc, but try to be actually reasonable here. If we're going to get anything done we really are going to just have to operate under certain basic assumptions. I'm going to assume you know what color the sky is. I'm going to assume that you know not to eat rocks. I'm going to assume you're smart enough to figure out that if we prove blonde children like cookies then whatever data we gathered or didn't gather on read-headed step-children has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on what we just learned about blonde children.

These are the kinds of basic "sitting down in this chair won't cause it to explode" unprovable assumptions we have to have to continuously make on any given day where we're going to get as far as getting out of bed.

So making the assumption you're not suffering from some kind of catastrophic brain damage making you incapable of understanding basic logical structures I'm left with the conclusion you can, it's just that you can't be bothered.
 
Anyway, imagine you wanted to know if low temperatures can result in accelerated metabolisms in white mice, so you placed mice in atmosphere and temperature-controlled environments and measured their CO2 production. Imagine the mice are bred in a lab that normally has a temperature of 20C-22C, so you place one group of mice in a 21C aquarium. You place another group in a 5C aquarium. Imagine that over the next several hours you found that the mice in the 5C aquarium were producing more C02 per mouse than the mice in the 21C aquarium, and concluded that low temperatures cause metabolism to increase in mice.

Now consider several possible objections to the above experiment:

A) The timeframe was too short. The metabolic increase could have been due to anxiety caused by the change in temperature rather than the low temperature itself
B) You measured CO2 per mouse, but not per unit body mass. What if you had disproportionately large mice in the cold aquarium?
C) There were no voles in the in experiment.
D) You did not record the genders of the mice. Perhaps one of the chambers was disproportionately male or female, and that was the cause of the metabolic difference.

One of those objections is batshit insane. Which one do you think it is?
 
Anyway, imagine you wanted to know if low temperatures can result in accelerated metabolisms in white mice, so you placed mice in atmosphere and temperature-controlled environments and measured their CO2 production. Imagine the mice are bred in a lab that normally has a temperature of 20C-22C, so you place one group of mice in a 21C aquarium. You place another group in a 5C aquarium. Imagine that over the next several hours you found that the mice in the 5C aquarium were producing more C02 per mouse than the mice in the 21C aquarium, and concluded that low temperatures cause metabolism to increase in mice.

Now consider several possible objections to the above experiment:

A) The timeframe was too short. The metabolic increase could have been due to anxiety caused by the change in temperature rather than the low temperature itself
B) You measured CO2 per mouse, but not per unit body mass. What if you had disproportionately large mice in the cold aquarium?
C) There were no voles in the in experiment.
D) You did not record the genders of the mice. Perhaps one of the chambers was disproportionately male or female, and that was the cause of the metabolic difference.

One of those objections is batshit insane. Which one do you think it is?

If this is meant to be a defense of this shoddy "white people are assholes" study, it fails. In your hypothesis we already known the baseline CO2. So from that baseline, we can make inferences. And GASP you included a control! (As an aside, I'd image low temperatures would lower metabolism.) The "study" in the OP does not give a baseline and has no controls. It can be interpreted anyway you want. Perhaps one group was "tested" in the morning while the other in the afternoon. Alternative headline: "Evil White People are More Evil in the Morning."

In discussions like this, I like to refer to Richard Feynman's "Cargo Cult Culture" speech, in which he cautioned:

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself--and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. After you've not fooled yourself, it's easy not to fool other scientists. You just have to be honest in a conventional way after that.

I would like to add something that's not essential to the science, but something I kind of believe, which is that you should not fool the layman when you're talking as a scientist. I am not trying to tell you what to do about cheating on your wife, or fooling your girlfriend, or something like that, when you're not trying to be a scientist, but just trying to be an ordinary human being. We'll leave those problems up to you and your rabbi. I'm talking about a specific, extra type of integrity that is not lying, but bending over backwards to show how you're maybe wrong, that you ought to have when acting as a scientist. And this is our responsibility as scientists, certainly to other scientists, and I think to laymen.

For example, I was a little surprised when I was talking to a friend who was going to go on the radio. He does work on cosmology and astronomy, and he wondered how he would explain what the applications of his work were. "Well," I said, "there aren't any." He said, "Yes, but then we won't get support for more research of this kind." I think that's kind of dishonest. If you're representing yourself as a scientist, then you should explain to the layman what you're doing-- and if they don't support you under those circumstances, then that's their decision.

One example of the principle is this: If you've made up your mind to test a theory, or you want to explain some idea, you should always decide to publish it whichever way it comes out. If we only publish results of a certain kind, we can make the argument look good. We must publish BOTH kinds of results.

I say that's also important in giving certain types of government advice. Supposing a senator asked you for advice about whether drilling a hole should be done in his state; and you decide it would be better in some other state. If you don't publish such a result, it seems to me you're not giving scientific advice. You're being used. If your answer happens to come out in the direction the government or the politicians like, they can use it as an argument in their favor; if it comes out the other way, they don't publish at all. That's not giving scientific advice.

Other kinds of errors are more characteristic of poor science. When I was at Cornell, I often talked to the people in the psychology department. One of the students told me she wanted to do an experiment that went something like this--it had been found by others that under certain circumstances, X, rats did something, A. She was curious as to whether, if she changed the circumstances to Y, they would still do A. So her proposal was to do the experiment under circumstances Y and see if they still did A.

I explained to her that it was necessary first to repeat in her laboratory the experiment of the other person--to do it under condition X to see if she could also get result A, and then change to Y and see if A changed. Then she would know the the real difference was the thing she thought she had under control.

She was very delighted with this new idea, and went to her professor. And his reply was, no, you cannot do that, because the experiment has already been done and you would be wasting time. This was in about 1947 or so, and it seems to have been the general policy then to not try to repeat psychological experiments, but only to change the conditions and see what happened.

Nowadays, there's a certain danger of the same thing happening, even in the famous field of physics. I was shocked to hear of an experiment being done at the big accelerator at the National Accelerator Laboratory, where a person used deuterium. In order to compare his heavy hydrogen results to what might happen with light hydrogen, he had to use data from someone else's experiment on light hydrogen, which was done on different apparatus. When asked why, he said it was because he couldn't get time on the program (because there's so little time and it's such expensive apparatus) to do the experiment with light hydrogen on this apparatus because there wouldn't be any new result. And so the men in charge of programs at NAL are so anxious for new results, in order to get more money to keep the thing going for public relations purposes, they are destroying--possibly--the value of the experiments themselves, which is the whole purpose of the thing. It is often hard for the experimenters there to complete their work as their scientific integrity demands.

All experiments in psychology are not of this type, however. For example, there have been many experiments running rats through all kinds of mazes, and so on--with little clear result. But in 1937 a man named Young did a very interesting one. He had a long corridor with doors all along one side where the rats came in, and doors along the other side where the food was. He wanted to see if he could train the rats to go in at the third door down from wherever he started them off. No. The rats went immediately to the door where the food had been the time before.

The question was, how did the rats know, because the corridor was so beautifully built and so uniform, that this was the same door as before? Obviously there was something about the door that was different from the other doors. So he painted the doors very carefully, arranging the textures on the faces of the doors exactly the same. Still the rats could tell. Then he thought maybe the rats were smelling the food, so he used chemicals to change the smell after each run. Still the rats could tell. Then he realized the rats might be able to tell by seeing the lights and the arrangement in the laboratory like any commonsense person. So he covered the corridor, and still the rats could tell.

He finally found that they could tell by the way the floor sounded when they ran over it. And he could only fix that by putting his corridor in sand. So he covered one after another of all possible clues and finally was able to fool the rats so that they had to learn to go in the third door. If he relaxed any of his conditions, the rats could tell.

Now, from a scientific standpoint, that is an A-number-one experiment. That is the experiment that makes rat-running experiments sensible, because it uncovers that clues that the rat is really using-- not what you think it's using. And that is the experiment that tells exactly what conditions you have to use in order to be careful and control everything in an experiment with rat-running.

I looked up the subsequent history of this research. The next experiment, and the one after that, never referred to Mr. Young. They never used any of his criteria of putting the corridor on sand, or being very careful. They just went right on running the rats in the same old way, and paid no attention to the great discoveries of Mr. Young, and his papers are not referred to, because he didn't discover anything about the rats. In fact, he discovered all the things you have to do to discover something about rats. But not paying attention to experiments like that is a characteristic example of cargo cult science.
 
If this is meant to be a defense of this shoddy "white people are assholes" study, it fails.

Gee, I wonder if you're saying that out of an emotional need to defend the poor, maligned white people or if it's based on some kind of knowledge and familiarity with how to conduct an experiment. Let's determine which it is, shall we?

In your hypothesis we already known the baseline CO2. So from that baseline, we can make inferences.

No we don't already know. That's why we measured CO2 production at 21C.

Or, here's a real world example: If I was doing a study on how white people react to the idea of disproportionate numbers of black people being in the prison system I'd present them with assorted values for the percentage of black people in the prison system. Like, maybe I'd tell some of them that the population is 40% black and others that the population is 60% black.

And GASP you included a control!

So you're at least familiar enough with the idea of a control to know that typical the control consists of some more examples of whatever it is you're studying. So, hypothetically, if I were studying the metabolism of mice I'd use mice as my controls because voles have fuck all to do with the question I'm trying to answer. Or in actuality, if I was studying white people's reactions to prison population dynamics I'd construct a control group of white people, because the reactions of Asian people have fuck all to do with the question I'm trying to answer.

The "study" in the OP does not give a baseline and has no controls.

There's no such thing as a baseline for this and it clearly describes what you seemed to think was a control in another context.

It can be interpreted anyway you want. Perhaps one group was "tested" in the morning while the other in the afternoon. Alternative headline: "Evil White People are More Evil in the Morning."

Is there any study that is not suspect using this "logic"?
1)Imagine some variable the researches failed to control, based on nothing but your dislike of the results.
2)Claim that variable is the real cause of the results.

The Paul said:
Gee, I wonder if you're saying that out of an emotional need to defend the poor, maligned white people or if it's based on some kind of knowledge and familiarity with how to conduct an experiment.

The first one, then.
 
Gee, I wonder if you're saying that out of an emotional need to defend the poor, maligned white people or if it's based on some kind of knowledge and familiarity with how to conduct an experiment. Let's determine which it is, shall we?

In your hypothesis we already known the baseline CO2. So from that baseline, we can make inferences.

No we don't already know. That's why we measured CO2 production at 21C.

Or, here's a real world example: If I was doing a study on how white people react to the idea of disproportionate numbers of black people being in the prison system I'd present them with assorted values for the percentage of black people in the prison system. Like, maybe I'd tell some of them that the population is 40% black and others that the population is 60% black.

And GASP you included a control!

So you're at least familiar enough with the idea of a control to know that typical the control consists of some more examples of whatever it is you're studying. So, hypothetically, if I were studying the metabolism of mice I'd use mice as my controls because voles have fuck all to do with the question I'm trying to answer. Or in actuality, if I was studying white people's reactions to prison population dynamics I'd construct a control group of white people, because the reactions of Asian people have fuck all to do with the question I'm trying to answer.

The "study" in the OP does not give a baseline and has no controls.

There's no such thing as a baseline for this and it clearly describes what you seemed to think was a control in another context.

It can be interpreted anyway you want. Perhaps one group was "tested" in the morning while the other in the afternoon. Alternative headline: "Evil White People are More Evil in the Morning."

Is there any study that is not suspect using this "logic"?
1)Imagine some variable the researches failed to control, based on nothing but your dislike of the results.
2)Claim that variable is the real cause of the results.

The Paul said:
Gee, I wonder if you're saying that out of an emotional need to defend the poor, maligned white people or if it's based on some kind of knowledge and familiarity with how to conduct an experiment.

The first one, then.

The difference is I care about good science. That makes one of us.
 
There's no such thing as a baseline for this and it clearly describes what you seemed to think was a control in another context.

Knowing whether a person favored or disfavored a policy before being tested on whether exposure to stimulus affects that person's disposition towards that policy would be the control/baseline. A first grader would know this. Remember, the easiest person to fool is yourself!
 

I assume "nm" stands for "Never mind, thinking too hard. Me no like actually defending my blind faith. Me no understand complex sciency stuff."
Unsurprisingly, you assumed wrong. It just means never mind.

- - - Updated - - -

In my experience, there are few, if any, studies in the social science that someone cannot find something to quibble or criticize.
And for good reason, if they are conducted like this one was. Identifying shoddy science as shoddy is hardly "quibbling".
"Shoddy science" does not normally mean "not answering the questions I wish answered".
 
The difference is I care about good science.

Let's think about that logically for a moment.

Assume you care about good science. What observable effects would this have?

One effect should be that if you raise objections to a study you should be able to form meaningful criticisms of the methods used, highlighting uncontrolled variables that should have been controlled, poor record-keeping, something like that.

When the experiment is discussed in detail, however, the closet thing you're able to raise to a rational complaint is that the researchers didn't make use of some fundamentally inaccessible data.

So sorry, all the evidence indicates you're wrong on that one.
 
One effect should be that if you raise objections to a study you should be able to form meaningful criticisms of the methods used, highlighting uncontrolled variables that should have been controlled, poor record-keeping, something like that.

When the experiment is discussed in detail, however, the closet thing you're able to raise to a rational complaint is that the researchers didn't make use of some fundamentally inaccessible data.
Having a control group is not fundamentally inaccessible data. You have been given meaningful criticisms and you simply ignore them because the "study" adheres to your ideological preferences.
 
One effect should be that if you raise objections to a study you should be able to form meaningful criticisms of the methods used, highlighting uncontrolled variables that should have been controlled, poor record-keeping, something like that.

When the experiment is discussed in detail, however, the closet thing you're able to raise to a rational complaint is that the researchers didn't make use of some fundamentally inaccessible data.
Having a control group is not fundamentally inaccessible data.

No, but the detailed opinions of the participants before their involvement in the study is.

You have been given meaningful criticisms and you simply ignore them because the "study" adheres to your ideological preferences. they're all from people who either don't know what a control group is or didn't read the article.

fify.
 
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