Bipartisan fascists go after Backpage et al

[Toni]

It is extremely telling that your concerns are all for the customers, and not for the workers.

I'd like to suggest to you that you break this habit of making very insulting assumptions about people. I said no such thing.

I'd like to suggest that you break the habit of objecting when people draw reasonable conclusions based on what you write. In the quote from YOUR post that I responded to, your assumptions were that a)men got STIs from prostitutes (and not the other way around) and b) that it was reasonable to bar infected prostitutes from sex work---with zero word of concern about the fate of a prostitute infected with something incurable.

It is reasonable to conclude that you don't care what happens to the prostitute. If you would like to clarify your concerns for prostitutes, please do.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Wait, so you’re saying that if a prostitute gets an STI, she should continue having sex with customers?

Regardless of how she got it, that’s not something she should be doing.

 

[LordKiran]

Wait, so you’re saying that if a prostitute gets an STI, she should continue having sex with customers?

Regardless of how she got it, that’s not something she should be doing.

Nah she's saying that the people most for legalized prostitution aren't particularly interested in the well being of the prostitutes. Sort of how stoners like to justify the legalization of pot by pointing out all the people it helps when by and large their motivations are far less noble and more self-centered than they let on.

Do you think there'd be any kind of safety net for prostitutes who contract diseases due to the nature of their work put into place if we legalized prostitution? Because I very much doubt it. Also good luck getting health insurance if you're a prostitute, that shit has hazardous/life threatening work written all over it.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Do you think there'd be any kind of safety net for prostitutes who contract diseases due to the nature of their work put into place if we legalized prostitution? Because I very much doubt it. Also good luck getting health insurance if you're a prostitute, that shit has hazardous/life threatening work written all over it.

We have universal health care here. You should too if you don't. Worrying about life saving health insurance is a bit of an alien concept to those of us from civilized society.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Wait, so you’re saying that if a prostitute gets an STI, she should continue having sex with customers?

I see what you did there. Haha

 

[Toni]

Wait, so you’re saying that if a prostitute gets an STI, she should continue having sex with customers?

Regardless of how she got it, that’s not something she should be doing.

No, I'm saying that if she gets an STI, she's out of a job, at least until it's cleared. Some things don't ever go away.

So, a 29 year old prostitute who began at age 15 (which seems to be the most average entry age I've seen) has no other job skills, no insurance, no way of earning a living and has an incurable, expensive disease that is hard to treat and the meds have unpleasant side effects--not as bad as HIV but much worse than a course of antibiotics. It doesn't matter whether she pays for the treatment or someone else does--it's expensive and even if it is free of charge to her, she's still out of a job, out of any way to support herself, with a nasty, chronic and ultimately fatal disease.

But who cares about that, anyway? I mean, 15 year olds are ready to make these important life decisions, aren't they?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I'd like to suggest that you break the habit of objecting when people draw reasonable conclusions based on what you write. In the quote from YOUR post that I responded to, your assumptions were that a)men got STIs from prostitutes (and not the other way around)

I didn't say it doesn't happen the other way around. I directly addressed what you wrote about people guarding against customers getting it from prostitutes. And I noted how that also protects prostitutes getting it from customers. It's a cyclical thing. Stopping prostitutes from passing it on means their clients are less likely to catch it and pass it on.

and b) that it was reasonable to bar infected prostitutes from sex work

I asked because you seemed you may have been indicating otherwise. Note how I didn't rush to the conclusion that you want them to keep working and spreading the diseases.

---with zero word of concern about the fate of a prostitute infected with something incurable.
It is reasonable to conclude that you don't care what happens to the prostitute. If you would like to clarify your concerns for prostitutes, please do.

Only if you are looking to judge me in a biased and hateful manner. I didn't say I had no compassion for these sex workers. Earlier I stated concern over them being raped and them having safe work conditions.

And I believe that because I was directly involved as an assistant counsel on the Bedford case that overturned the anti-prostitution laws in Canada that made the job deadly. I met these women who suffered because of the sort of laws you are pushing for and the friends and loved ones of women who died because of them. I met more of them again when the Harper government ignored them as it put in the Nordic system. I was one of the few who actually listened to the sex workers themselves as the politicians would only listen to the religious and feminist groups.

Because you don't write posts about them being endangered by these laws, should I jump to the conclusion that you smile as they murdered because they couldn't vet clients? No.

 

[Toni]

I didn't say it doesn't happen the other way around. I directly addressed what you wrote about people guarding against customers getting it from prostitutes. And I noted how that also protects prostitutes getting it from customers. It's a cyclical thing. Stopping prostitutes from passing it on means their clients are less likely to catch it and pass it on.

Exactly HOW does testing for STIs (as is typically mandated for prostitutes working in legal prostitution) protect PROSTITUTES?

What? Because customers are less likely to pick up an STI from a prostitute? Really? You don't think they pick them up elsewhere????? Please.

---with zero word of concern about the fate of a prostitute infected with something incurable.
It is reasonable to conclude that you don't care what happens to the prostitute. If you would like to clarify your concerns for prostitutes, please do.

Only if you are looking to judge me in a biased and hateful manner. I didn't say I had no compassion for these sex workers. Earlier I stated concern over them being raped and them having safe work conditions.

And I believe that because I was directly involved as an assistant counsel on the Bedford case that overturned the anti-prostitution laws in Canada that made the job deadly. I met these women who suffered because of the sort of laws you are pushing for and the friends and loved ones of women who died because of them. I met more of them again when the Harper government ignored them as it put in the Nordic system. I was one of the few who actually listened to the sex workers themselves as the politicians would only listen to the religious and feminist groups.

Because you don't write posts about them being endangered by these laws, should I jump to the conclusion that you smile as they murdered because they couldn't vet clients? No.

And still you have expressed ZERO concern for a prostitute who is unable to work after contracting an incurable STI.

I'm waiting for your concern. I'm waiting for you to talk about her options.

 

[laughing dog]

I'd like to suggest to you that you break this habit of making very insulting assumptions about people.

That one broke the irony meters all over the universe.

By the way your glib response to "Legalized prostitution increases the risks that vulnerable people, often too young to be legal, are forced into that life. " of "Does it? Or does it merely reroute where it takes place? " pretty reinforces Toni's observation.

 

[LordKiran]

Do you think there'd be any kind of safety net for prostitutes who contract diseases due to the nature of their work put into place if we legalized prostitution? Because I very much doubt it. Also good luck getting health insurance if you're a prostitute, that shit has hazardous/life threatening work written all over it.

We have universal health care here. You should too if you don't. Worrying about life saving health insurance is a bit of an alien concept to those of us from civilized society.

And yet the question stands. In the states, who is going to shoulder that particular liability should we legalize prostitution? I really think certain people underestimate how much a legal prostitute would cost following the Nevada model. It's not uncommon for them to go for a grand an hour in Nevada today if the internet is to be believed.

Here's an excerpt from some rando online for what it's worth:

I used to frequent the Nevada brothels whenever I happened to be in Nevada, but now I no longer go. At one time the brothels made all their business from locals and truck drivers, but it hasn't been that way for decades. Two things ruined Nevada Brothels, and both are tied together. The first is the HBO show Cathouse. The second is Dennis Hof buying out most of the remaining brothels in Nevada. Up until my last visit, you could usually find a nice looking gal who would show you a good time for $300 to $400 an hour.

My last visit not one would go under $700 an hour. Not one of those was worth even $400 in my book, and I didn't feel like driving to Elko. Now the houses cater to big spenders and focus on gaining as much money from suckers who don't know any better.

Even back when I visited, unless the gals knew you, they initialy started at $1000/hr or more. Vegas area brothels were a bit higher in price, although you could usually count on the Chicken Ranch for a reasonable gal. Sheri's was another story, even when dead most the women who worked there would rarely drop down in prices. You could visit a few other areas around Vegas, but the quality of women were a lot worse. Even so, most of the time I was able to quickly haggle them down to around the same rate that a similarly looking escort in Vegas would charge.

The Reno area brothels were a bit more reasonable, and I preferred them because there were a lot more houses and women to choose from. If you didn't find one you liked at one ranch, there was another close by, if not in the same parking lot where you may find one you do like. Plus the ranches were also closer to the hotels and casinos in Sparks which were also much cheaper.

Back when I first visited, you could sit with the gals and chat with them in the parlor or the bar area, sometimes for hours to get to know them. The gals were usually very natural acting around and by the time you went back you had a good idea on how much fun you would have. Now except for the Mustang, none of the large "upscale" brothels are much fun in the parlor.

The problem is Hof. He trains his gals to be money grubbing bitches and the only ones who last at his place are those who follow his example and buy into his controlling methods. All his gas act the same. There is no fun in parlor or the bar area at any Hof house. He won't allow play in the parlar. Back before Hof owned them. I would often get greated by "Stripper Handshakes," at Kit Kat and Sagebrush. Stripper Handshakes still occur in the Elko houses, but hardly anywhere else.

If you frequent the brothel's web sites, or their pussy whipped customer's website SIN, sex-in-nevada.net, you will see a lot of BS and propoganda. The biggest crock of BS is their safe sex propoganda, and how much "safer their ladies are," and how they are tested. They are no more safe than a local escort. You will read a lot how they allow no activity without a condom, however many I saw would offer BBBJ's and DATY. Odd's are if she's popular on the brothel boards, she gives at least a BBBJ. Most of the time they would say something like. "Now don't tell anyone about this," or "technically I am not allowed to do this, but.."
The second biggest line of bull is they can not mention prices except in the houses. Several of the gals I like and who had my email would send me offers of specials the next time I was in town. Plus several houses have fixed rates and mention their rates on their websites, along with specials monthly. If they weren't allowed to, the state would have shut them down by then. Most of those with fixed rates are the really rural brothels, especially the Asian ones in Elko.

Finally the most stupid part of the brothel's are the lineups. A lineup occurs when you enter and each woman not currently entertaining walks in, says her name and then stands their silent not allowed to give any eye contact, or show any emotion or their stupid ranch may fine them.

Hope that gives you enough information to know to avoid them.

Source: https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=41053

I think the creepiest thing out of all of this is the environment he describes. Seems in some places the women are treated like chattel.

Isn't that just PEACHY?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Exactly HOW does testing for STIs (as is typically mandated for prostitutes working in legal prostitution) protect PROSTITUTES?

What? Because customers are less likely to pick up an STI from a prostitute? Really?

Sure. Do you not think that these guys see multiple sex workers?

You don't think they pick them up elsewhere????? Please.

Of course they do, but that doesn't mean they don't also pick them up from prostitutes, and removing any infected person from the cycle is going to help. If prostitutes are being licensed then they are far easier to monitor and remove form the cycle.

And still you have expressed ZERO concern for a prostitute who is unable to work after contracting an incurable STI.

I would think it goes without saying that all of us here are concerned about people, and not just prostitutes, that contract incurable STIs. Its one good reason to have universal health care.

Curbing prostitution due to desperation is also a good reason for universal basic income, which you have told me in the past that you oppose.

I'm waiting for your concern.

Ok, then I'll wait for yours. You've shown zero concern over sex workers being pushed by these laws you support into dangerous working conditions, ironically including higher STIs due to lack of legalization and regulation and testing. I wasn't questioning or suggesting that you don't care about them, but if you want to play such games, then ok. Why do you want to hurt women and see them murdered in the street?

 

[LordKiran]

Sure. Do you not think that these guys see multiple sex workers?



Of course they do, but that doesn't mean they don't also pick them up from prostitutes, and removing any infected person from the cycle is going to help. If prostitutes are being licensed then they are far easier to monitor and remove form the cycle.

And still you have expressed ZERO concern for a prostitute who is unable to work after contracting an incurable STI.

I would think it goes without saying that all of us here are concerned about people, and not just prostitutes, that contract incurable STIs. Its one good reason to have universal health care.

Curbing prostitution due to desperation is also a good reason for universal basic income, which you have told me in the past that you oppose.

I'm waiting for your concern.

Ok, then I'll wait for yours. You've shown zero concern over sex workers being pushed by these laws you support into dangerous working conditions, ironically including higher STIs due to lack of legalization and regulation and testing. I wasn't questioning or suggesting that you don't care about them, but if you want to play such games, then ok. Why do you want to hurt women and see them murdered in the street?

For what it's worth, my (And I'll go out on a presumptuous limb and assume Toni is in agreement here) solution would be to uplift these women out of the desperate circumstances that drive them to prostitution in the first place. Sure some of them might love the job, some of them might even have a gay old time of it, but I highly doubt that most of them wouldn't pick other, better options were they available.

Some women might get a rise out of it, but then some people get a rise out of fucking dead bodies.

How about this, Why don't people like Derec go out and buy an Occulus rift and see how that treats them? The tech as is is pretty promising and only stands to get better with age.

 

[laughing dog]

Why do you want to hurt women and see them murdered in the street?

Probably for the same reasons you want to see women and young girls made into sex slaves.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

By the way your glib response to "Legalized prostitution increases the risks that vulnerable people, often too young to be legal, are forced into that life. " of "Does it? Or does it merely reroute where it takes place? " pretty reinforces Toni's observation.

That's not a glib response. That's a legitimate question. We have no good evidence that making prostitution illegal does more good than harm in this respect. And even if the number of forced goes up in red light districts, that doesn't mean it goes up overall. It could merely be better channeling, concentrating, and exposing it. That you choose to see this as a "glib response" instead of actually thinking it through actually shows YOUR disregard for the actual safety of women.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

For what it's worth, my (And I'll go out on a presumptuous limb and assume Toni is in agreement here) solution would be to uplift these women out of the desperate circumstances that drive them to prostitution in the first place. Sure some of them might love the job, some of them might even have a gay old time of it, but I highly doubt that most of them wouldn't pick other, better options were they available.

That sounds like an argument for universal basic income and universal single payer health care to me, like I wrote above and have been advocating for on this forum for years.

How about this, Why don't people like Derec go out and buy an Occulus rift and see how that treats them?

How is that going to help these women other than by taking away an available income source?

 

[LordKiran]

For what it's worth, my (And I'll go out on a presumptuous limb and assume Toni is in agreement here) solution would be to uplift these women out of the desperate circumstances that drive them to prostitution in the first place. Sure some of them might love the job, some of them might even have a gay old time of it, but I highly doubt that most of them wouldn't pick other, better options were they available.

That sounds like an argument for universal basic income and universal single payer health care to me, like I wrote above and have been advocating for on this forum for years.

How about this, Why don't people like Derec go out and buy an Occulus rift and see how that treats them?

How is that going to help these women other than by taking away an income source?

If you take away the demand for prostitutes then there won't be any. Poverty and socio-economic inequality is a problem that needs solving regardless of that, and rampant prostitution from desperate women who don't know how else to keep the heat on is merely a symptom of this.

 

[laughing dog]

By the way your glib response to "Legalized prostitution increases the risks that vulnerable people, often too young to be legal, are forced into that life. " of "Does it? Or does it merely reroute where it takes place? " pretty reinforces Toni's observation.

That's not a glib response. That's a legitimate question. We have no good evidence that making prostitution illegal does more good than harm in this respect. And even if the number of forced goes up in red light districts, that doesn't mean it goes up overall. It could merely be better channeling, concentrating, and exposing it.

Or it could mean it goes up. Not only that, the idea that rerouting forced young girls into legal prostitution while keeping the overall number of people forced into prostituion the same is pretty deplorable.

That you choose to see this as a "glib response" instead of actually thinking it through actually shows YOUR disregard for the actual safety of women.

Your shallow thinking (i.e. did not think through) is exposed above. But thanks for confirming Toni's observation.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Why do you want to hurt women and see them murdered in the street?

Probably for the same reasons you want to see women and young girls made into sex slaves.

Legalizing the practice makes them not slaves. By accusing him of wanting to enslave them via the process of emancipating them from slavery you have sunk to new depths of incoherence.

 

[LordKiran]

Why do you want to hurt women and see them murdered in the street?

Probably for the same reasons you want to see women and young girls made into sex slaves.

Legalizing the practice makes them not slaves..

And I'm sure you believe that. People believe in lots of silly things that are under no obligation to actually be. How many of the proletariat do you think thought of Lenin and Stalin as their best guys looking out for their interests before they were shipped off to die in Siberia?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

If you take away the demand for prostitutes then there won't be any. Poverty and socio-economic inequality is a problem that needs solving regardless of that, and rampant prostitution from desperate women who don't know how else to keep the heat on is merely a symptom of this.

So if you have a good support system in place and desperate women don't need to be prostitutes, why then ban prostitution? And if you somehow get rid of the demand for prostitution without having such a support system in place, then what are you accomplishing aside from taking away a direly needed source of income?