Bipartisan fascists go after Backpage et al

[LordKiran]

Eh, give it another decade. I wanna see how things go in Europe before we commit to following suit.

Well, if women are dying or being enslaved unnecessarily today, then wouldn't today be a better time to start dealing with it rather than maybe getting around to perhaps doing something in a decade unless you find another reason to delay then?

Sex slavery and general predation is a consequence of either position. You can't "Win" against crime, you can only curtail it to the best of your ability. Now you and I can argue over which methodology is best, but lets not kid ourselves and pretend either position will solve the issue of sex trafficking or the exploitation of sex workers, because that's preposterous.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Eh, give it another decade. I wanna see how things go in Europe before we commit to following suit.

Well, if women are dying or being enslaved unnecessarily today, then wouldn't today be a better time to start dealing with it rather than maybe getting around to perhaps doing something in a decade unless you find another reason to delay then?

Sex slavery and general predation is a consequence of either position. You can't "Win" against crime, you can only curtail it to the best of your ability. Now you and I can argue over which methodology is best, but lets not kid ourselves and pretend either position will solve the issue of sex trafficking or the exploitation of sex workers, because that's preposterous.

Ya, nobody's making that argument so there's nobody kidding themselves about it or saying anything that preposterous. People are dying and being enslaved today, though, so I'm just against the idea of putting a pin in it for a decade.

 

[LordKiran]

Sex slavery and general predation is a consequence of either position. You can't "Win" against crime, you can only curtail it to the best of your ability. Now you and I can argue over which methodology is best, but lets not kid ourselves and pretend either position will solve the issue of sex trafficking or the exploitation of sex workers, because that's preposterous.

Ya, nobody's making that argument so there's nobody kidding themselves about it or saying anything that preposterous. People are dying and being enslaved today, though, so I'm just against the idea of putting a pin in it for a decade.

As am I. It's why I advocate for previously stated solutions.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

So ... we’re both against women getting enslaved and murdered?

Which one of us is the evil misogynist then?

 

[LordKiran]

So ... we’re both against women getting enslaved and murdered?

Which one of us is the evil misogynist then?

Flip a coin? heads I win tails you lose?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We only see dead prostitutes because of economic pressures driving women to be prostitutes in a fundamentally sick society that refuses to properly care for its own.

You realize that most of the dead ones are the low level ones forced into it to feed their drug habits?

It sounds so consensual when you put it that way.

Would you prefer they turn to burglary or the like to feed their habits?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So because a high end prostitute makes enough money to hire security, and enough prestige that she can turn down clients, who are interested enough in her in particular to wait for a vetting process, and has enough of a reputation that people trust her with real identities, an unknown or perhaps less attractive prostitute can obviously do the same. Great argument. Oh, and she probably also has to have a pimple or criminal owner in order to accomplish these things.

Never mind that she could just NOT hire a bodyguard, NOT be involved with a pimp, and NOT have to have a reputation as a high-end "escort" for her to jump on craigslist, post a listing for a tiny commission, and only accept offers from men who have alright reputations.

Exactly--you don't need to be high end to greatly increase security by means of the internet.

Verify that the person is who they claim to be.

Look him up on sites that list bad clients.

When an appointment is booked in advance on the internet these are easy things to do, so long as the government doesn't block the efforts.

hahahahahahahaha

Really? You think you can verify that people are who they say they are on the internet??????????????

hahahahahahhahahahahahah

Ask for a work number. Call it, speak to them.

- - - Updated - - -

hahahahahahahaha

Really? You think you can verify that people are who they say they are on the internet??????????????

hahahahahahhahahahahahah

Yes, Toni. To an extent you really can. i'll bet heavily that you are not an ax murderer. I'll also bet heavily that you're not a prostitute.

Not only can you get some sense of somebody by communicating online (and no, you can't get a perfect sense, even communicating with somebody face to face), but you can also review both sex workers and clients online. There are entire forums in the same format at this one for both sex workers to chat with one another and for their customers to chat with one another. And each review the other. When a dangerous customer is around, or a dangerous person posing as a sex worker, it gets out as these people chat.

These people also educate each other on red flags and warning signs. I would bet heavily that these sites have saved more than a few lives, especially when used in conjunction with sits like backpage. Of course eliminating backpage and criminalizing these people eliminates these tools or discourages people from using these tools.

They're forcing these sites offline as well.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Eh, give it another decade. I wanna see how things go in Europe before we commit to following suit. As it stands and in light of our current political climate I can't say with any confidence that legalization wouldn't just increase and enable predation. I think its really telling that it's been asked over and over again in this thread:

"What happens to a prostitute if she contracts a disease and can no longer work?" The lack of an answer tells me that there isn't one, and that the participants here aren't particularly interested in his/her lasting welfare which I fully expect to be reflected in any kind of legislation, because legalization is for the consumer and the proprietor, not the worker.

I already answered this--workman's comp coverage.

 

[laughing dog]

It sounds so consensual when you put it that way.

Would you prefer they turn to burglary or the like to feed their habits?

I would prefer them to get effective treatment like any normal decent human being. Which was the point of Lord Kiran's post that you continually evade with your responses.

Ask for a work number. Call it, speak to them.

Assuming your response is serious, you just admitted the internet is not necessary for the vetting.

 

[laughing dog]

Eh, give it another decade. I wanna see how things go in Europe before we commit to following suit. As it stands and in light of our current political climate I can't say with any confidence that legalization wouldn't just increase and enable predation. I think its really telling that it's been asked over and over again in this thread:

"What happens to a prostitute if she contracts a disease and can no longer work?" The lack of an answer tells me that there isn't one, and that the participants here aren't particularly interested in his/her lasting welfare which I fully expect to be reflected in any kind of legislation, because legalization is for the consumer and the proprietor, not the worker.

I already answered this--workman's comp coverage.

What plane of existence are you on because it certainly is not this one. Workman's comp is inadequate in most cases when the employer does not fight it. I can just imagine the hoops a prostitute would have to go through in order to prove she/he contracted the disease through work.

 

[LordKiran]

Eh, give it another decade. I wanna see how things go in Europe before we commit to following suit. As it stands and in light of our current political climate I can't say with any confidence that legalization wouldn't just increase and enable predation. I think its really telling that it's been asked over and over again in this thread:

"What happens to a prostitute if she contracts a disease and can no longer work?" The lack of an answer tells me that there isn't one, and that the participants here aren't particularly interested in his/her lasting welfare which I fully expect to be reflected in any kind of legislation, because legalization is for the consumer and the proprietor, not the worker.

I already answered this--workman's comp coverage.

Honestly I have difficulty envisioning government mandated health coverage for prostitutes is something anyone on capital hill would spend their political points on. You might as well just join Jolly insisting on single payer while you're at it.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You might as well just join Jolly insisting on single payer while you're at it.

Its so weird hearing Americans speak of single payer as if it is an impossible dream, while much of the first world, including some nations far poorer than the USA already have it. And remember, Obama didn't even TRY for it. How are you going to know if you can make it work if you never try?

 

[LordKiran]

You might as well just join Jolly insisting on single payer while you're at it.

Its so weird hearing Americans speak of single payer as if it is an impossible dream, while much of the first world, including some nations far poorer than the USA already have it. And remember, Obama didn't even TRY for it. How are you going to know if you can make it work if you never try?

With this congress, senate, and presidency? It absolutely is impossible. Get back to me in 2020

 

[Toni]

You might as well just join Jolly insisting on single payer while you're at it.

Its so weird hearing Americans speak of single payer as if it is an impossible dream, while much of the first world, including some nations far poorer than the USA already have it. And remember, Obama didn't even TRY for it. How are you going to know if you can make it work if you never try?

The ONLY concern I have with 'Medicare for all" is that I've seen how Medicare works for at least some patients and for some providers. In some cases, not great. Here's an example that I had to deal with with one of my family members. It's not isolated: a co-worker is dealing with the same issues with her family member. I know of other people who have run into this same issue regarding Medicare/elderly family member recovering from a surgery or a stroke or some such:

An older patient has a routine surgery for say: a knee replacement. Standard of care mandates physical therapy after surgery for a specific amount of time---or until 'no further progress is being made.' The patient has some kind of set back: a fall, a bout with some infection such as a UTI or brochitis: enough that they don't feel very well for a bit and so don't make much progress in PT or else refuse PT for a day or so--which is completely understandable and normal. But to Medicare, it's not acceptable because they are 'not making progress' so not only do they lose their rehabilitative PT but also are dismissed from the hospital or rehab center--with as little as 24 hours notice to the family who must scramble to find a way to get their recovering family member who may not yet be mobile and may actually be fighting an infection adequate care. This is not easy, especially if there isn't much money and the payers are a combo of Medicare/Medicaid. All facilities must have beds available to Medicaid but those go very quickly because they are limited because Medicaid doesn't actually pay for the cost of treatment/services and the facility cannot go after the patient (who can't afford to pay anyway if they are on Medicaid and often on Medicare). I spent hours and hours and hours on the phone just to get the chance to check out a rehab center that *might* have a bed for my family member who was recovering from a knee replacement--performed to keep her out of a wheelchair and in her own home (far less expensive an option).

And the money devoted to administrative costs to handle this stuff is enormous.


Aside from that, in the US, Medicare reimbursements do not cover the cost of providing the care in many cases, just as Medicaid reimbursements have never paid the actual cost of care. True, we would see a lot of savings in terms of some kinds of administrative costs by having a single payer to deal with. And I mean: a lot.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

That you have done it badly is no excuse not to do it.

 

[Toni]

That you have done it badly is no excuse not to do it.

The very best universal health care imaginable will not begin to address the serious life and safety issues that prostitutes face nor will it do anything to reduce sex trafficking. It will not address what a prostitute is to do to earn a living after she tests positive with something incurable, such as HIV.

Speaking of which: you haven't addressed that, either.

 

[laughing dog]

That you have done it badly is no excuse not to do it.

It is if the expectation that the result will be bad.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

It will not address what a prostitute is to do to earn a living after she tests positive with something incurable, such as HIV.

So? That's not an excuse not to do it either.

Speaking of which: you haven't addressed that, either.

Addressed what? People who get diseases should be treated by the healthcare system, regardless of how they got the diseases. People who can no longer work high paying low education jobs like sex work will have to get education or take low paying jobs like everybody else at their education and experience level at other jobs.

Remember, you have not shown that legalized prostitution increases these health or drug problems. The opposite could be true for all you know. But we do know what you have consistently avoided addressing, that criminalizing sex work endangers sex workers.

 

[bilby]

Nobody puts themselves in unwanted danger if they don't have to. Whether or not they would still prostitute themselves is beside that point. Women who have their basics covered may still prostitute themselves but will be far less likely to do so in ways that put themselves at even further risk unless they're desperate enough for money due to economic pressures. By economically uplifting the lower percentiles of the economic spectrum, you indirectly reduce the labor pool for prostitution and create harm reduction relevant to sex work.

One good way to do that is to increase the price; And one good way to do that is to legalize the industry.

Eh, give it another decade. I wanna see how things go in Europe before we commit to following suit. As it stands and in light of our current political climate I can't say with any confidence that legalization wouldn't just increase and enable predation. I think its really telling that it's been asked over and over again in this thread:

"What happens to a prostitute if she contracts a disease and can no longer work?" The lack of an answer tells me that there isn't one, and that the participants here aren't particularly interested in his/her lasting welfare which I fully expect to be reflected in any kind of legislation, because legalization is for the consumer and the proprietor, not the worker.

The answer is the same as for any other industry.

What happens to a miner who injures himself at work, and can no longer work in the mines?

He finds another job. Or he suffers unemployment - in the civilised world, with disability payments from the government, or from the employer under whose watch he became incapacitated, or both.

Nobody is guaranteed work in their chosen profession; if sickness or injury stops them from being able to do it, they need to retrain, or go onto a disability pension.

If the injury or illness was acquired at work, their employer may be required to pay compensation, or to fund their payments.

Really, this is a non-issue (other than in the insane world of US employment, where healthcare is tied to employment, and people who can't work are told 'tough shit, fuck off').

Civilised countries don't have that problem. That's likely why nobody's seen fit to address this supposedly insurmountable issue so far in this thread: Civilisation is kinda assumed.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It would also be a matter between industry groups and insurance companies. If legally working prostitutes have a lower rate of STDs and the average time working in the job only lasts a few years, it would probably be pretty affordable to get coverage.