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For Atheists - define what you don't believe in

What's the diff between a ghost and yahweh?
Stories of ghostly interaction tend, to me, to appear more consistent. There are actual events experienced by multiple people attached to a ghostly presence, while the gods seem largely the result of just-so stories to justify events no one witnessed.
What the sun is, why the moon phases, how come only mankind has fire, that sort of thing.
 
Then tell me what the christian god is! I dont know.

See my offering in this post. Lion agreed that it was a reasonable general definition.

Note that *I* do not believe it's reasonable, given that it contains at least two serious internal contradictions. (I won't go in to those here, but if anyone's interested we can start another thread for that.) Still, I've put forward that one in years past, and most Christians seem to find it acceptable, at least as a starting point which can be refined further.
 
Really? Irony?
Yes, really. I grew up in a haunted house, and not everything has been explained to my satisfaction by skeptics who were not there.
No irony, as far as I know.

Atheist just refers to belief in a deity, not all forms of possible woo.

So ghosts is a better explanation? You dont need to answer, just suprised that you have double standards..
 
Really? Irony?
Yes, really. I grew up in a haunted house, and not everything has been explained to my satisfaction by skeptics who were not there.
No irony, as far as I know.

Atheist just refers to belief in a deity, not all forms of possible woo.

I agree with Keith; atheism is skepticism applied to theology. (Though I don't agree with him about the reality of ghosts, spirits or souls!)
 
Really? Irony?
Yes, really. I grew up in a haunted house, and not everything has been explained to my satisfaction by skeptics who were not there.
No irony, as far as I know.

Atheist just refers to belief in a deity, not all forms of possible woo.

So ghosts is a better explanation? You dont need to answer, just suprised that you have double standards..
But I don't see it as a double standard.
I keep asking for evidence of gods.
I have had experience of ghosts.
 
What's the diff between a ghost and yahweh?
Stories of ghostly interaction tend, to me, to appear more consistent. There are actual events experienced by multiple people attached to a ghostly presence, while the gods seem largely the result of just-so stories to justify events no one witnessed.
What the sun is, why the moon phases, how come only mankind has fire, that sort of thing.

I meant how do they differ substantially.

A mature Oak Tree and a dandelion are massively different in size and appearance but they are both plants, both do the photosynthesis and CO2 thing, etc. How is one of your ghosts different from Yahweh? What do your ghosts look like, sound like, how do you experience them with your senses, etc? How is this different than Yahweh experiencers?

When you experience one of your ghosts how do you know you are not experiencing yahweh?
 
When you experience one of your ghosts how do you know you are not experiencing yahweh?
Well, I don't. But it seems unlikely as a working hypothesis.

I would refer you to my above list of things I do not feel require a supernatural explanation, thus demand a deity. I don't recall anyone suggesting that Jehovah manifests by moving furniture around in a room that is unoccupied. It's not a category usually used by the Faithful to promote believe in a supreme cosmic being.
 
Really? Irony?
Yes, really. I grew up in a haunted house, and not everything has been explained to my satisfaction by skeptics who were not there.
No irony, as far as I know.

Atheist just refers to belief in a deity, not all forms of possible woo.
But then the "woo" is in the explanation for events not understood, not the event itself.

"I saw (or felt or heard) something for which I have no explanation" is quite different from, "I saw a ghost".
 
So ghosts is a better explanation? You dont need to answer, just suprised that you have double standards..
But I don't see it as a double standard.
I keep asking for evidence of gods.
I have had experience of ghosts.
you had an experience you cannot explain. ”ghosts did it” is not an explanation, exactly in the same way as ”god(s) did it”.
 
Can we stop with the shifting of the burden of proof? I expect better from theists that hang out here, this isn't Rapture Ready for fuck's sake.

The persuasive burden rests on whoever wants to do the persuading.
If atheists want to remain unpersuasive that's perfectly OK with me. :cool:

There is no possible discussion to be had, whether for the goals of persuasion or otherwise, until the theist defines what he believes. Prior to that, there are infinite possible concepts that the theist might mean by "god" and an infinite number of things that any atheist or any theist do not believe in. So the two would spend a wasted eternity arguing about completely different concepts unless the theist specifies which one of the infinite concepts he believes in that the atheist does not.
 
Keith would be the third atheist I've come across that has had similar experiences and quite interestingly, the atheists I used to discuss with on an msn forum was around the buildings they stayed in.
 
So ghosts is a better explanation? You dont need to answer, just suprised that you have double standards..
But I don't see it as a double standard.
I keep asking for evidence of gods.
I have had experience of ghosts.
Have you ever described these experiences in this forum? I would be interested in hearing about them.
 
Have you ever described these experiences in this forum? I would be interested in hearing about them.

As would I.

Me too. I saw a legit UFO and posted about it in the Lounge. I still haven't received an adequate explanation. I know what I saw, can describe it, and it's stuck in my head like it was yesterday. That doesn't mean I saw a space ship from another world/dimension/etc., and maybe it was an experimental aircraft, but it sure as fuck wasn't anything the public knows about.

So out with it. I wanna hear a ghost story.
 
No real episodic anecdote to tell. Just a presence, a bitter old lady who died in the master bedroom of a LOT of pain.

Just grew up knowing she was there. The hateful bitch that DIDN'T live upstairs...
 
It’s hard (but NOT impossible!) to prove a negative — for instance, it’s really easy to rigorously prove that 1 plus 1 is NOT equal to 3. That argument comes up a lot from theists when atheists refute their claim that gods exist. Having discussed this too many times and achieving little or nothing in the way of progress, I now just go straight to probabilities….


Almost EVERY claim for proof of existence of gods made by theists has been disproved or debunked as scientific evidence accumulates, and as a result god has become an inhabitant of the gaps where science hasn’t (yet) looked. Some beliefs are just too stupid to even investigate. As a person of science and reason, if concrete, repeatable proof of ANY kind were to emerge for the existence of gods, then I would have to change my view. I’m confident that the continual debunking of religious claims will persist, and that my view will only be reinforced. But how confident? Let me try to give a small example….


Standard Newtonian physics works well on our planet and is the basis of much of how we build our world...but not all of it. That’s because Newton’s physics don’t work at very small scales or very high speeds. Newton’s physics is a macroscopic approximation of Quantum Mechanics. QM says that there is very small but non-zero probability that Newton’s apple could have fallen upward rather down on his head. However, when we’re building things on our little planet, Newton does just fine, and we can ignore the QM possibilities for all practical purposes. Unless we’re building or using very small things, like we do when building Laser diodes for the Internet, when we purposely exploit quantum behaviour, the probability of the undesirable effects can be safely disregarded. As an electronic engineer and chip designer, I now have to consider quantum effects at current process geometries. That said, I’m perfectly happy to take the bet that an apple will always fall toward the Earth, rather than up. That confidence, for me, is 99.999999….% (as many decimal places as you like) high that I’m safe taking that bet.


Now, let’s flip over to the theist side of the discussion…..as I said, most claims for existence of gods are plainly nonsensical, or based on faith, wishful thinking, dogma or fear. None of these claims can stand close scrutiny, and are often shown to be false, or have natural explanations. They are often made by non-scientists, and evince disregard for standards of evidence and proof. My confidence level that any of these claims will ever be proven is infinitesimal...less than 0.000000000...01%. Thus, I’m very happy that my atheism is correctly based on overwhelming probability that gods don’t exist. I’d take that bet, too! Nonetheless, as I said earlier, I would be compelled to change my view if just one, tiny iota of proof emerged. I’m not worried about losing that bet.


Think on this as well...humanity as currently known (H. Sapiens) has been around for about 200000 years, and for much of that time, has used religion as a way of ensuring tribal cohesion and explaining the unknown. We’ve had science and mathematics for a tiny fraction of that time...about a fortieth of it, if you assume 5000 years for science and mathematics. And yet, in all that time, not one single piece of proof for gods has emerged. Worse still for theism, as we developed science and maths, we got better at interpreting the world, and disproving nonsensical claims from theists.


So...the probability of gods is so vanishingly small, even after all this time, that I’m perfectly happy that an atheist stance is reasonable, and is correct. I’d also argue that religion is a huge negative for humanity now, and should be disregarded, and allowed to slide into oblivion, where it belongs. There is now a sizable body of research which leads to the conclusion that religion is a form of brain damage...why am I not surprised?

All that said, humanity persists in the god delusion, and likely will keep on being totally unreasonable despite all the proof that religion is pernicious.
 
It’s hard (but NOT impossible!) to prove a negative — for instance, it’s really easy to rigorously prove that 1 plus 1 is NOT equal to 3.

Agreed. You (atheists) can prove that a thing does not exist in a defined way. Eg. There is no thing called a cat inside the empty cardboard box. You could define what it is you are claiming doesn't exist and define the place in space/time where it doesn't exist.

Of course when you say 1+1 doesn't = 3 that, for me, is the equivalent of saying "atheism = 3"

Almost EVERY claim for proof of existence of gods made by theists has been disproved or debunked...

No they haven't.
And neither is science/maths incompatible with the existence of God, angels, heaven, hell...

...Some beliefs are just too stupid to even investigate.

Modern science (physics) is beginning to formally embrace the reality that some of its own "elegant" hypotheses are unable to be scientifically investigated. We simply can't marshal sufficient resources to scientifically test those theories and as the universe is getting bigger/faster we don't have enough time to do so in any case. So it's multiverse-of-the-gaps and special pleading that if a theory is "elegant" enough then we can put our faith in it.

As a person of science and reason, if concrete, repeatable proof of ANY kind were to emerge for the existence of gods, then I would have to change my view.

Those sentiments have been held by a gazillion religious persons of science and reason. You know the sort of huge list of names I can put up as an example right?

I’m confident that the continual debunking of religious claims will persist, and that my view will only be reinforced. But how confident?

"Confident" From the Latin con fide

Quantum Mechanics. QM says that...

Quantum-of-the-gaps

My confidence level that any of these claims will ever be proven is infinitesimal...

Preach it bro. Hallelujah


Think on this as well...humanity as currently known (H. Sapiens) has been around for about 200000 years, and for much of that time, has used religion as a way of ensuring tribal cohesion

Atheism has always been an available menu option for that entire time.
If the tribe didn't think the shaman was (at least partly) right they could take him and throw him off a cliff anytime they wanted.

All that said, humanity persists in the god delusion, and likely will keep on being totally unreasonable despite all the proof that religion is pernicious.

Evolution would have eliminated something "pernicious" by now if that were true.
You say God delusion. I say God conclusion.
 
You (atheists) ... could define what it is you are claiming doesn't exist and define the place in space/time where it doesn't exist.
The claim is that theists have spectacularly failed to demonstrate any god's objective existence.

Here are the definitions: In monotheistic religion, God is "the creator and ruler of the universe and the source of all moral authority". Small-g gods are any "superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes". (The quotes are from the New Oxford American Dictionary).

Where is it that "it" does not exist? Everywhere other than the plainly evident source of them all: the human imagination.

It's not a mystery what's being talked about when an atheist says "I don't believe in God or gods". So, what's the problem? What more do you want? And why?
 
You (atheists) ... could define what it is you are claiming doesn't exist and define the place in space/time where it doesn't exist.
It's not a mystery what's being talked about when an atheist says "I don't believe in God or gods". So, what's the problem? What more do you want? And why?
not a problem, just putting words in the atheists' mouth to better fit Lion's agenda, and shift the burden of proof. As usual...
 
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