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Mathematics vs Reality

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
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secular-skeptic
Debates on infinity come and go for years on the forum. Endless debate over what infinity is and is it real.

Is math reality?

Geometry is based on a point, massless infinitesimally small. A line is comprised of an infinite number of points. Neither point nor line in geometry are real in the physical world. They are abstractions. Yet a lot of real world problems can be solved with geometry.

Does a circle exist? I;d say no. A circle mathematically is a geometric figure. It can never be reflected in reality. A real cirxcle does not exist.

1/3 = 0.333... is an abstraction, it does not exist.

1/3 of 9 can exist in reality.

PI is an abstraction. It is used as an approximation to construct a real world circle. The measured diamter and circimfrence of a circle can never be PI...

An infinite limit is an abstraction that does not exist in reality. It is a useful abstraction. lim x -> inf 1/x can never be evaluated at inf. There is no x that will will yield zero for 1/x.

What is the reality of mathematics?
 
It works.

Nature, or at least what we perceive, has tons of ratios appearing everywhere. Mathematics is the language for describing those ratios.

What is the reality of a language used to describe certain ratios in reality?
 
Since numbers do not exist in the world they of course had to be invented.

There is no "addition" in the real world so it of course had to be made up.

Putting two rocks next to two other rocks is not addition.

Pouring one liquid into another is not addition.

Smashing two clumps of mud together is not addition.
 
All we actually know as conscious beings is our own mind, as Descartes can be interpreted as having suggested with the Cogito. We however can't stop ourselves from taking part of our mind, namely our perceptions, as the real world itself. Try to look at a table and not take it as a real table but as your perception of a table you will never know in itself. But this goes beyond our perceptions. We also tend to take our abstract representations of the world as the world itself. People who believe in God may be convinced their notion of God is the real God. So probably many mathematicians will also tend to take mathematical expressions as the real things represented by them. That's a sort of representational bias. But what's the point of a representation if you don't take it seriously? And I would assume we all know that, anyway.
EB
 
Since numbers do not exist in the world they of course had to be invented.

There is no "addition" in the real world so it of course had to be made up.

Putting two rocks next to two other rocks is not addition.

Pouring one liquid into another is not addition.

Smashing two clumps of mud together is not addition.

Who cares? You yourself don't exist.
EB
 
Since numbers do not exist in the world they of course had to be invented.

There is no "addition" in the real world so it of course had to be made up.

Putting two rocks next to two other rocks is not addition.

Pouring one liquid into another is not addition.

Smashing two clumps of mud together is not addition.

Who cares? You yourself don't exist.
EB

I care and people that want to see the connection between mathematics and reality care.

People that have trouble thinking probably don't care.
 
Engineers think their equations approximate reality.

Physicists think reality approximates their equations.

Mathematicians don't care.
 
Engineers think their equations approximate reality.

Physicists think reality approximates their equations.

Mathematicians don't care.

The equations are part of models. They model reality.

A model is an abstraction of reality.

Something that a human can use to make predictions.

The model is a tool not a replication, not an ultimate understanding.
 
Some forms of math are descriptive and/or predictive; but so far as we know, there are no prescriptive forms of math. You cannot cause some perceptible change to physical reality just by writing out a formula. Math isn't a magical incantation, and reciting it won't create, destroy, or change anything.

But math may tell you how to manipulate matter to create, destroy, or change it. The accuracy of mathematical models as applied to physical reality is one of the deep mysteries.

And though I doubt it, I wouldn't want to definitely claim that there are no possible ways to use math prescriptively. It would look like magic to us; but keep in mind Clarke's third law...
 
...The accuracy of mathematical models as applied to physical reality is one of the deep mysteries....

The data existed first then the models were created to make use of the data.

Calculus was invented to make use of the data.

The flexibility of mathematics is what makes it useful.

Accuracy is not a mystery in a system that does not change it's "rules" of operation every now and then.

You only have to make a close enough model to make a prediction and that model will always make a prediction.
 
Some forms of math are descriptive and/or predictive; but so far as we know, there are no prescriptive forms of math. You cannot cause some perceptible change to physical reality just by writing out a formula. Math isn't a magical incantation, and reciting it won't create, destroy, or change anything.

But math may tell you how to manipulate matter to create, destroy, or change it. The accuracy of mathematical models as applied to physical reality is one of the deep mysteries.

And though I doubt it, I wouldn't want to definitely claim that there are no possible ways to use math prescriptively. It would look like magic to us; but keep in mind Clarke's third law...

Let's connect a few dots here. Yes, there is a descriptive quality to maths equations and formulas, and that's something expected. But what we may not all understand is how much equations and formulas get right about the world. So what is the exact scope of the "descriptivity" of maths?

Well, you've suggested an answer.

Mathematical models are accurate enough to be used to specify physical processes that then behave as predicted.

And then of course, specifying physical processes is in essence prescriptive.

My apology to Kharakov for abusively hiding things.




EB
 
Today is there any purely abstract math that has no link to use on real world problems? Theoretical proofs that support practical math, like calculus, have a real function. There is a proof for example that the LaPlace and Fourier transform pairs are unique.

Necessity is the mother of invention. Geometry arose out of practical needs.
 
jokodo

But math may tell you how to manipulate matter to create, destroy, or change it. The accuracy of mathematical models as applied to physical reality is one of the deep mysteries.




How deep would that be, can you quantify it? Deep ocean or swimming pool deep? Unfathomable?

I do not see how it is a mystery given math and our physical models of reality. 1/3 = 0.333... is not mysterious, it is a consequence of the process of division by repeated subtraction. If anything, limitations of math is limitations of our brains.

Noise at the quantum level sets an ultimate measurement noise floor. Uncertainties and are quantifiable.

Math can create matter? That IS mysterious.
 
Today is there any purely abstract math that has no link to use on real world problems?

There used to be, but reality caught up.

This is from memory, probably from Asimov, probably from the sixties or seventies, so assume I'm messing up:

Okay, I've done a little research, and determined that I am definitely messing it up. Nonetheless, I'll tell the story my way, the wrong way, because that's the way I know it. Then I'll post the inconvenient facts below.

So, Euclid made a list of axioms, and all geometry grew from those simple axioms.

But one of the axioms was troubling, because it seemed more like a theorem, something more complicated than an axiom, something that should be proven rather than assumed.

So, many people over the centuries (or whatever) tried to prove the fifth axiom from the other four. They always failed. It had to be assumed, because nobody could prove it, so it remained an axiom.

The fifth axiom, as I wrongly remember it, is this: A single straight line connects any two points. Exactly one straight line; neither more nor less. Five is right out.

So one day this guy gets a brilliant idea. He will assume that the fifth axiom is wrong, and work until that produces an error, and thus he will have proved that the fifth axiom is true, and thus it will become a theorem (or whatever) rather than an axiom.

So, he assumes that, between any two points, there are an infinity of different straight lines. Using this and the other four axioms, he develops an entire system of geometry. And it works! There are no contradictions!

So, briefly, the answer to your question was yes. There was an abstract math (if geometry counts as math) that had no bearing on reality.

But then Einstein, and suddenly the universe was expanding rather than flat, and it turned out that this new non-Euclidean geometry was useful for describing that weird expanding universe (the one we live in).

So then another guy did it again. This time he assumed that between any two points there are no straight lines. And his system worked too. It was a whole nother system of geometry that contained no contradictions but that didn't describe anything at all.

But then, what if the universe (which, these days, people say isn't going to happen, but which back then seemed plausible) quits expanding and starts to fall back in on itself? Won't this third system of geometry describe that universe? Yes. So, once again, maybe this system does, in some degree, possibly apply to reality.

But, for a time, these two new systems were thought to be gloriously totally useless.


---


Okay, now the evidence that my memory fails, but this may not be the only way in which I butchered the story:

Euclid's Postulates

1. A straight line segment can be drawn joining any two points.
2. Any straight line segment can be extended indefinitely in a straight line.
3. Given any straight line segment, a circle can be drawn having the segment as radius and one endpoint as center.
4. All right angles are congruent.
5. If two lines are drawn which intersect a third in such a way that the sum of the inner angles on one side is less than two right angles, then the two lines inevitably must intersect each other on that side if extended far enough. This postulate is equivalent to what is known as the parallel postulate.
Euclid's fifth postulate cannot be proven as a theorem, although this was attempted by many people. Euclid himself used only the first four postulates ("absolute geometry") for the first 28 propositions of the Elements, but was forced to invoke the parallel postulate on the 29th. In 1823, Janos Bolyai and Nicolai Lobachevsky independently realized that entirely self-consistent "non-Euclidean geometries" could be created in which the parallel postulate did not hold. (Gauss had also discovered but suppressed the existence of non-Euclidean geometries.)


-- http://mathworld.wolfram.com/EuclidsPostulates.html

It looks like a confused #1 and #5. And I can't tell the story about #5 because I don't understand that at all.
 
I don't think geome try was ever purely abstract. For surveying and construction they needd ways to comopute areas and angles.

The method you descibed sounds like claculus, In the limit as line sgments get sammall a continuous like results.
 
Geometry is totally abstract.

There are no squares or circles or right triangles in the real world.

But by figuring things out in an ideal "world" the information can easily be transferred to a world far from ideal.

In the real world you can only have so much precision, but close enough is good enough.

The building does not have to be perfectly square. Just close.

It's going to be gone soon anyways.
 
I don't think geome try was ever purely abstract. For surveying and construction they needd ways to comopute areas and angles.

I'm happy to agree, if we're talking about Euclidean geometry. But these new geometries initially had no applications at all.




The method you descibed sounds like claculus, In the limit as line sgments get sammall a continuous like results.

No, it's not related to calculus.

Here is one ignorant layman's guess as to what might be intended by the notion of having more than one straight line between two points: A catcher can throw a ball to the pitcher in a hard straight line, or in a lofty arc, or anywhere in between; there are an infinity of geodesics between point A and point B.

But remember, they guy who invented that kind of geometry intended to prove that it was a mistake, that it was wrong. So, the fact that I may possibly smell a hint of meaning to the notion having more than one straight line between two points, that doesn't mean that he had that meaning. His geometry was originally without meaning.
 
there are an infinity of geodesics between point A and point B.

There are infinite such movements, meaning there is no end to the number of them, not that you could ever have or define all of them.

And only if there is no dimension to one.

So it can't be translated to the real world.
 
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