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One socialist's hypothesis for why socialism didn't catch on

PyramidHead

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I'm reading an interesting book by Axel Honneth called The Idea of Socialism: Towards a Renewal. He lays out the history of socialist thought and pinpoints three ways that early socialists set themselves up for failure:

1. They assumed that all of the problems of society were caused by the capitalist economy, and thus a perfect society could be built by changing to a socialist economy, with no need to account for other functional spheres of life such as governance or family structures. They thought that liberal conceptions of individual rights would become superfluous once workers banded together and took control of economic production for mutual goals. He speculates that this is why centrally planned economies were sometimes seen as the most obvious path to the goals of socialism, when experimenting with different models might have proven more effective.

2. They pinned their hopes on a pre-existing population of outraged industrial workers who were (they assumed) chomping at the bit for an opportunity to overthrow their masters and wrest control of the economy--and therefore society itself, related to the previous point--from their grasp. In other words, it was simply taken as an obvious truth that everybody in the working class was already socialist. When the post-industrial economy arose in the last century, this assumption quickly proved detrimental, as white-collar jobs provided a relative degree of comfort for enough people that socialist thought was denied its captive audience. Translating the ideals of socialism to the new economic styles of post-WWII civilization simply wasn't given enough priority, so they were lost in the noise of history.

3. Strongly influenced by philosophical notions of inevitability in human progress, especially by Hegel, early socialists were convinced that they weren't actually pushing forward a strategy which should be evaluated among others, and accepted if it turned out to be something workable; they pre-supposed that the arc of human evolution was heading towards a socialist utopia in the near future regardless of what anybody had to say about it, so political action was often undertaken reluctantly. For, if they acknowledged that socialism was not the inexorable destination of human civilization, it would mean socialism was just a normative theory that could be accepted or rejected depending on one's moral views.

Honneth then sets out to suggest ways that socialism could be revived in this day and age without falling into the same problems. Basically, he recommends open experimentation with different models, integration into spheres of public life other than just production, and above all else adherence to the principle of free communication. His view is that the early socialists weren't totally wrong about the arc of history, but rather than specifically slouching toward socialism, history has tended to gravitate towards the struggle of voiceless groups in society making their voices heard. Restoring the value of democratic "will-making" to the concept of socialism, which often outright decried democracy in governance as something we need to transcend as a species, should be a guiding principle.

The goal of socialism as it became known was specifically aimed at the means of production, but perhaps this was a mistake owed to getting too caught up in the technological marvels of the industrial revolution; perhaps the goal should be returned to its original conception of reconciling the contradictory aims of the French Revolution, which placed importance on liberty, fraternity, and equality. Socialism is correct that the liberal notion of negative freedom, as an individual right that can only be infringed upon by others or by government, creates a tension between these three values, leading as it does to a lack of fraternity and equality to secure private liberty. Social liberty, in which each person's freedom is mutually dependent on everyone else's and participation in society rather than withdrawal from it produces the most freedom for its members, could be a better organizing principle for socialism. All of the usual tenets of worker ownership and collective rule flow naturally from there, but there are no longer any restrictions on how to best realize social liberty because it is not considered a purely economic problem, and even in economic terms it remains open to experimentation.

I usually don't have much patience for utopian ideas of any stripe, and I doubt this would ever get socialism any serious traction in the near future, but I agree with Honneth about the flaws in how it was envisaged and implemented in the past.
 
"A perfect society could be built" there are people who still believe this?
 
Red scares. The actions of Communists and the rise of the Bolsheviks in Russia. The rise of anarchist terrorism. This allowed socialists to be lumped into the Red scares and were used by cynical politicians against labor et al. Many socialist organizations had to fight off attempts by communists to infiltrate and take over their organizations, which made organizing for socialism hard to do. Thus socialist organizations would form, die, split and collapse, making socialism look like at best, a bunch of incompetent crazies. There was no real organized, recognizable socialist platform one could point to, just a ever changing series of inconsistent and sometimes less than inspiring socialist programs coming out of ephemeral organizations. Eugene Debs was the closest that Socialists ever got to a recognizable socialist program with widespread appeal.
 
A socialist who's name escapes me noted: ~'There is something about the human spirit that makes our cause a pathetic joke.'

Back in the day, the socialist IWW would always gain in support the moment laborers needed something, but after it is won, they didn't care about it as much.

And then on the other hand, about 70% of the Socialist Democrat platform exists in US law today. There is socialism and then there is American Socialism which is / was not as radical an idea.

And then you have people that hate "entitlements" but will vote out representatives that threaten Medicare and Social Security.

Much of the hatred of American Socialism stems from a complete misunderstanding or misinforming of the subject. I understand that people want the Government as outside their lives as possible, but, they seem to drive on a lot of government provided roads.
 
What specific socialist society does this apply to?

Social Security is a socialist program. So is Medicare.

Where is the decent society based totally on capitalist ideals and not saved by socialist programs?
 
What specific socialist society does this apply to?

Social Security is a socialist program. So is Medicare.

Where is the decent society based totally on capitalist ideals and not saved by socialist programs?

Here, the author is talking about socialism as a replacement for capitalism and not a way of making an existing system of capitalism better. You're right that the systems we need to install from the top down are evidence that capitalism doesn't meet all the needs of society on its own. The question is whether socialism could, and I think that if it aims for the larger goal of social liberty in all spheres of society driven by open communication, it doesn't necessarily have to be a classical command economy, where the potential for a new class of elites is always lurking around the corner.
 
IMHO, the PR battle was lost a looong time ago, when the Soviets put the second "S" in USSR.
 
What specific socialist society does this apply to?

Social Security is a socialist program. So is Medicare.

Where is the decent society based totally on capitalist ideals and not saved by socialist programs?

Here, the author is talking about socialism as a replacement for capitalism and not a way of making an existing system of capitalism better. You're right that the systems we need to install from the top down are evidence that capitalism doesn't meet all the needs of society on its own. The question is whether socialism could, and I think that if it aims for the larger goal of social liberty in all spheres of society driven by open communication, it doesn't necessarily have to be a classical command economy, where the potential for a new class of elites is always lurking around the corner.

Socialism where?

From which specific so-called socialist economy is all this knowledge of socialism derived from?
 
What specific socialist society does this apply to?

Social Security is a socialist program. So is Medicare.

Where is the decent society based totally on capitalist ideals and not saved by socialist programs?

Here, the author is talking about socialism as a replacement for capitalism and not a way of making an existing system of capitalism better. You're right that the systems we need to install from the top down are evidence that capitalism doesn't meet all the needs of society on its own. The question is whether socialism could, and I think that if it aims for the larger goal of social liberty in all spheres of society driven by open communication, it doesn't necessarily have to be a classical command economy, where the potential for a new class of elites is always lurking around the corner.

Socialism where?

From which specific so-called socialist economy is all this knowledge of socialism derived from?

You'd have to read the book.
 
IMHO, the PR battle was lost a looong time ago, when the Soviets put the second "S" in USSR.

What do you imagine the first "S" stands for? Do you know what the word "soviet" means? It's a worker's council democratically organized around a community, where delegates could be replaced anytime by vote and everything was decided in a collective fashion. Every bit as socialist as the second "S", if you catch my drift.
 
IMHO, the PR battle was lost a looong time ago, when the Soviets put the second "S" in USSR.

What do you imagine the first "S" stands for? Do you know what the word "soviet" means? It's a worker's council democratically organized around a community, where delegates could be replaced anytime by vote and everything was decided in a collective fashion. Every bit as socialist as the second "S", if you catch my drift.

Thanks for that - no, I didn't know what "soviet" meant. Anyhow, it doesn't stand for SOCIALIST (or SANDERS) like the 2nd one. :D
Nobody with a hair up their ass about socialism is likely to know what soviet means either... or maybe I should have stayed in school?
 
Like so many things with "socialism" in the title, it's never that simple. The USSR was closer to state capitalism than the kind of worker-owned collectives envisioned by Marx (who actually specifically cautioned against implementing socialism in the kinds of pre-industrial farming societies that characterized Russia before the revolution). So, as untermensche is hinting at above, there aren't a lot of examples of socialist experiments that were either (a) allowed to exist long enough by capitalist powers to get a sense of how well they meet the needs of their citizens or (b) not handicapped by the starting economy they were trying to fix being too far removed from the goal. Or so I have read.
 
Ah, socialism. Always the perfect system until somebody screws it up by trying to make it apply to reality.
 
Ah, socialism. Always the perfect system until somebody screws it up by trying to make it apply to reality.

Canuckia has UHC, right? So do several other countries that aren't awash in strife and rebellion. When does the acceptance of socialistic establishments make a country socialist?
If people would stop thinking of it as a system that is either top-to-bottom constitutionally mandated, and more as a characteristic of possible establishments that could help or hurt a democratic country, maybe socialism would get more of a fair shake. But today, it has the image of someone with a gun taking all of everybody's money, passing half of it back to the victims in equal shares and pocketing the other half.
 
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Socialism where?

From which specific so-called socialist economy is all this knowledge of socialism derived from?

You'd have to read the book.

This thread will get bogged down unless you define the Author's definition of socialism. I'd recommend that you define how he defines socialism and then ask people on side quests to go to another thread. I tried to find his definition, but failed.
 
Here, the author is talking about socialism as a replacement for capitalism and not a way of making an existing system of capitalism better.

One problem is using these terms as if they mean anything specific. Really these are categories for conceptually similar but distinct ideas. It's better to just talk about the ideas themselves as these terms just obscure the actual discussion and elicit emotional rather than logical responses.

Trying to explain that there are models of socialism which are compatible with market economies is a fools errand to people who think capitalism ≡ market economy. Offering up employee ownership and management of companies as a model might fare better. In fact lots of professionals in metal fab, who tend to be ardent blue collar capitalists, own plasma cutters from such a company.
 
Socialism where?

From which specific so-called socialist economy is all this knowledge of socialism derived from?

You'd have to read the book.

This thread will get bogged down unless you define the Author's definition of socialism. I'd recommend that you define how he defines socialism and then ask people on side quests to go to another thread. I tried to find his definition, but failed.

It's the standard definition, I would guess, since his book is primarily a historical overview. Workers decide what happens to the value created by their labor, instead of capitalists, and when workers have to decide as a group which route is best, the decision gets made on the basis of what's best for their shared goals instead of what's best for somebody's bottom line. He keeps returning to the concept of social freedom as a regulating principle, which everything hinges on. If you need a definition, it might be that socialism is a way of organizing the economy and society in order to maximize social freedom. And social freedom is the kind of freedom that, in theory anyway, is actually compatible with fraternity and equality, unlike the liberal freedom that is prioritized in capitalist societies. Rather than each person being an autonomous entity who must view everyone else as competitors or obstacles, each person's freedom is maximized by participating in a community of sympathetic actors with common aspirations and interdependent contributions.
 
Ah, socialism. Always the perfect system until somebody screws it up by trying to make it apply to reality.
Or as E.O. Wilson, an entomologist specializing in ants said about socialism, "Wonderful theory, wrong species". He thought socialism was a great system for ants, not so much for humans.

I tend to agree with Wilson. The failure of socialism is that it does not fit with the nature of humanity. Humans care about their own reward for their labor more than benefiting others by their labor. Humans work harder when they are rewarded for that work. If they receive the same reward regardless of the amount of their labor then they do as little as possible. There was an old Soviet Russian expression "they pretend to pay us and we pretend to work". This is the bain of socialism, free riders.
 
This thread will get bogged down unless you define the Author's definition of socialism. I'd recommend that you define how he defines socialism and then ask people on side quests to go to another thread. I tried to find his definition, but failed.

It's the standard definition, I would guess, since his book is primarily a historical overview. Workers decide what happens to the value created by their labor, instead of capitalists, and when workers have to decide as a group which route is best, the decision gets made on the basis of what's best for their shared goals instead of what's best for somebody's bottom line. He keeps returning to the concept of social freedom as a regulating principle, which everything hinges on. If you need a definition, it might be that socialism is a way of organizing the economy and society in order to maximize social freedom. And social freedom is the kind of freedom that, in theory anyway, is actually compatible with fraternity and equality, unlike the liberal freedom that is prioritized in capitalist societies. Rather than each person being an autonomous entity who must view everyone else as competitors or obstacles, each person's freedom is maximized by participating in a community of sympathetic actors with common aspirations and interdependent contributions.

Thank you. I would submit that anyone who tries to argue a definition of socialism that is contrary to the above definition is just intentionally derailing the thread.
 
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