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Einstein's block universe?

That is what I was attempting to answer in the post you quoted... repteated here:
I don't see that a block time universe would be so much a matter that god knows the future as it would be that the past, present, and future are all created together so all exist simultaneously. It would be a fixed, unvarying universe and if there's a god then he would be at least a five dimensional critter so sees what we think of as past, present, and future as one fixed unchanging block.
Sorry could you be more clear? Does the hypothetical God know the future? Yes or no? I think for Christians who believe in predestination God does know the future - in every little detail. He knows what everyone will do.
 
....In effect I see it as god would know everything that has occured, is occurring, and will ever occur because it was all created together... it was all set, so since it was all set then nothing can change. This means predetermined to the smallest detail so humans can not change anything having no free will.
Yes I think that is the concept of predestination. I don't really understand it but many believers claim it is compatible with "free will".

This is a universe that I, personally, don't see as possible but it is what the universe would be if the current model of block time is assumed.
Why is a fully deterministic universe impossible? Many believe in it. Block time is based on a deterministic universe.

BTW
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination
"Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God..."
Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predeterminism
"Predeterminism is the idea that all events are determined in advance. Predeterminism is the philosophy that all events of history, past, present and future, have been already decided or are already known (by God, fate, or some other force), including human actions."

That sounds compatible with the block universe.
 
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There are at least four interpretations of QM that are deterministic;
''Interestingly enough, the formalism of quantum mechanics is itself deterministic. Assuming you know the initial state of an isolated quantum system, the system will then evolve forward in time, following Schrodinger’s equation exactly. The only aspect of quantum theory which is random is what happens when you make a measurement.''
 
This might be compatible with how people think God relates to the universe.

What do people think of that idea?

According to some perspectives God always has access to the whole, which can mean stuff like: God has multiple save points, or God has many worlds evolving at different rates (so one of the differences in the many worlds is the rate that time passes in different worlds)....
Though I used to prefer the multiverse idea (due to it making abiogenesis and evolution inevitable) I don't think it is very compatible with traditional Christianity.
Here are some criticisms of it:
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/cosmology/faith-in-the-multiverse/
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/cosmology/multiverse-is-our-universe-one-of-many/

To riff on the many worlds interpretation: there could be a world (verse in the multiverse) that is now 10^-42 seconds after the big bang. Information could be inserted in this world that would change the evolution of the whole. There could be another world that is 10 minutes before I posted this message with a naked picture of me before the power went out. I'm hoping.

So when God learns something new- a new way of dealing with things, then God can insert this and re-evolve the universe from a past point. Parts of the universe will stay the same, parts will not (depending on whether there is a universal information update or not- and where in the evolution of the universe the "new" information is acting).
Many Christians would say that God can't learn something new. (though maybe there is some Biblical support when he regrets things like making man)

I don't know about a block universe- I think I have a block brain though.
 
Being omniscient and having to learn appears to be an oxymoron.

I'd go further and say that intelligence, or the ability to figure things out, is also unnecessary.
 
skepticalbip:
Could you please explain why it can't be possible for a universe to exist that doesn't in your view allow free will? Note that a thing you are against, Predeterminism, has supporters that are convinced it is compatible with free will.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predeterminism
 
skepticalbip:
Could you please explain why it can't be possible for a universe to exist that doesn't in your view allow free will? Note that a thing you are against, Predeterminism, has supporters that are convinced it is compatible with free will.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predeterminism


It is the nature of the universe that block time specifies that I have a problem with which has nothing to do with free will. I would have the same problem if there were no humans. It isn't the issue of free will that makes such a universe a problem. You just seem to worry about humans so I mentioned that such a universe would not allow for free will either because everything would already be set and unchangeable..

Maybe you could explain why you think a fixed unchanging block time universe would allow for free will instead of linking a site I can't communicate with.
 
It is the nature of the universe that block time specifies that I have a problem with which has nothing to do with free will.
Well the front cover article from New Scientist magazine this year (see post #16) focused on the block universe which suggests it is a scientifically plausible idea.

....so I mentioned that such a universe would not allow for free will either because everything would already be set and unchangeable..

Maybe you could explain why you think a fixed unchanging block time universe would allow for free will instead of linking a site I can't communicate with.
Even though I've read a short book about predestination recently twice I don't understand the arguments concerning free will very well. I don't see why I am required to research free will in that article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predeterminism
since I am apathetic on the topic. I think you claiming there is no room for free will in predeterminism isn't justified though I guess it would mean you doing research in order to address this.

I'll try and address it anyway though my reasoning might be completely different from people who are experts in this field. One way a person could have "free will" if predeterminism is true is when the person is unaware of the choice they will ultimately make. They have the freedom to make the worst choice if they wish. This will make them see their choice as being "free" even though to those who have full knowledge of the block universe their choice was predetermined the whole time.
 
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There is no possibility of a different outcome within a determined system, so all decisions are determined by the conditions that shape them, making the perception of choosing this option instead of that option an illusion.

An illusion because there was never the possibility of choosing otherwise, or acting otherwise, decisions and actions being determined by the world at large acting upon the brain, itself a determined system.

So, within a determined system, there can not only not be no free will (a poorly defined concept as it is), but no possibility of freedom of action, no possibility of 'doing otherwise'
 
...So, within a determined system, there can not only not be no free will (a poorly defined concept as it is), but no possibility of freedom of action, no possibility of 'doing otherwise'
From the perspective of a person, it can feel like they have free will. They can choose something that seems irrational - so they are free to do things that are against their normal preferences. I think that counts as a form of free will.
 
...So, within a determined system, there can not only not be no free will (a poorly defined concept as it is), but no possibility of freedom of action, no possibility of 'doing otherwise'
From the perspective of a person, it can feel like they have free will. They can choose something that seems irrational - so they are free to do things that are against their normal preferences. I think that counts as a form of free will.

Not really. It does count as an illusion of free will. The illusion of the ability to have made a different choice when in fact the choice that happens to be made in any given instance in time is the only 'choice' that can be made, given determinism, given the state of the system in that instance in time.....which of course includes the brain making that decision.

But perhaps, for some, a comforting illusion none the less.
 
BTW in movies about time loops like "Groundhog Day" the other characters are all deterministic - they act in an identical way based on how the main character interacts with them.
 
...So, within a determined system, there can not only not be no free will (a poorly defined concept as it is), but no possibility of freedom of action, no possibility of 'doing otherwise'
From the perspective of a person, it can feel like they have free will. They can choose something that seems irrational - so they are free to do things that are against their normal preferences. I think that counts as a form of free will.

Not really. It does count as an illusion of free will. The illusion of the ability to have made a different choice when in fact the choice that happens to be made in any given instance in time is the only 'choice' that can be made, given determinism, given the state of the system in that instance in time.....which of course includes the brain making that decision.

But perhaps, for some, a comforting illusion none the less.

Comforting? Perhaps for some?

To my mind, it's a lot more comforting to consider the idea that I have no control over anything. No control, no blame. I couldn't help it, officer.

Like Sartre said, "condemned to be free": ie, freedom entails responsibility, accountability. It's a scary prospect.
 
BTW in movies about time loops like "Groundhog Day" the other characters are all deterministic - they act in an identical way based on how the main character interacts with them.

The character in Groundhog day, through experience, is aware of repeating the same day over and over, so has information available to him that he would not normally have. He knows exactly what is going to happen as he steps outside, so is able to use that information to alter an event he knows will happen but can now avoid. He has a privileged perspective on unfolding events. Though not free from determinism, his repertoire of response becomes wider through trial and error.
 
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From the perspective of a person, it can feel like they have free will.

Just because something feels like it's so doesn't mean it is so. Something feeling right simply means that it produces less anxiety within the mind than the alternative. The goal should be to uncover the source of those feelings, which tend to be deeply ingrained unconscious beliefs.

They can choose something that seems irrational - so they are free to do things that are against their normal preferences. I think that counts as a form of free will.

There's usually a rational reason for choosing to do something irrationally. Even if it's just a misguided attempt to prove one has the ability to act irrationally.
 
I don't think a Block Universe implies the existence of a God at all. IMO, it simply means that something has always existed.
 
The "block universe" is a natural way to think about our real universe. The "illusion" of time passing is easily explained with chains of causal relationships. At 3:00 pm I experience something; at 3:01 I remember that experience and plan to respond at 3:02 pm, and so on. My own view of time passing is simply the following of a thread of snapshots, ordered by causal dependencies. These snapshots are called "time capsules" by Julian Barbour, who develops these ideas in excruciating detail!

There may be no way to step outside the "block" and "travel" to a different time. (The ABC Science piece OP links to, and which seems to imply otherwise, is just obfuscation IMO.) On the other hand, threads of causal relationships MIGHT point backwards, or have backward-pointing segments, if some form of retrocausality is valid. But this would be a very different topic.

Apparently Einstein believed in a block universe where the past and future exist eternally and are inevitable.

https://plus.maths.org/content/what-block-time

"The block universe theory, where time travel is possible but time passing is an illusion"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...eory-time-past-present-future-travel/10178386

This might be compatible with how people think God relates to the universe.

What do people think of that idea?

Quantum fluctuations will fuck it up. Each time you time travel it'll be different. There's no way to, even hypothetically, go back and forward in time.

But more importantly... who cares about what Einstein thinks of anything? It's interesting to study Einstein for historical reasons. But we don't care what... let's say Socrates... said about things he was wrong about. We only care about the stuff that has held up. We don't let the stuff he was wrong about tarnish his memory.

The "reality" underneath the model of modern physics is still a mystery. There MIGHT be multiple universes but there might not be. Quantum physics MIGHT make the world non-deterministic, but it might not. Nobody is certain about such things. The meme that Albert Einstein was wrong about quantum physics is misinformed. Note that results like Bell's Theorem, often thought to repudiate thought experiments like EPR, do not achieve that in models where retrocausality is allowed.

[Off-topic] One of my peeves is that some people are too eager to reject common-place memes. Marilyn Monroe was the sexiest Hollywood actress? Yes, she probably was! George Washington was the greatest U.S. President? Many historians would agree. Casablanca is the greatest film ever? Self-evident In my opinion!

And Albert Einstein really is one of the greatest scientific geniuses who ever lived. He's on the top pedestal with Sir Isaac Newton and Archimedes. It's common to equate Einstein with relativity, while making Neils Bohr et al the creative genius(es) behind quantum theory. But Einstein was one of the key founders of quantum physics; and it was his 1905 paper demonstrating that light was quantized into photons for which he won the Nobel Prize. Many accounts imply an Einstein vs Bohr duel which Bohr won, but this is over-simplified, particularly given the points I make above.
 
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