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Why isn't everyone a "Saganist"?

Tammuz

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A while ago I came across the term "Saganist". As defined in Urban Dictionary:

One who participates in the school of thought known as Saganism.

One who maintains an awestruck perspective of the vast cosmos we inhabit so minutely and the wonder of billions of years of evolution that brought us to this moment.
One who finds a source of complete spiritual satisfaction in the natural laws of the universe and the achievements of mankind's scientific practice thus far.

Emphasis is placed upon the duty of care for our planet, the need for ambitious space exploration programs, the folly of religion, nationalism and war, but also the need for compassion in the face of small-mindedness and zealotry.

The world would be an incredible place if all human beings were Saganists.

I'm not really a fan of being an -ist named after a single person. But in any case, Carl Sagan was a really great guy, and I find his sentiment, an summarized in the quote to be very desirable. Why isn't this the predominant sentiment of the world? Think of how different such a world would be compared to the one we inhabit right now.

In a "Saganist" world, science and critical thinking would be core subjects in school and every child would receive excellent education in them. Global warming would have been taken seriously decades ago, not as of now, a half-assed wake-up when it might be almost too late. The pale blue dot would be well-cared for, and not just for humans, but for other animals as well. There would be ambitious plans and projects for space exploration and colonization. Religion would be a fringe phenomena, Christianity and Islam not viewed as qualitively different that Norse mythology and Egyptian mythology.

Hey, I can dream!
 
Because people didn't evolve to sit there, awestruck at the cosmos. They evolved to convince other people to touch their privates.

Bow chicka bow wow.
 
Because people didn't evolve to sit there, awestruck at the cosmos. They evolved to convince other people to touch their privates.

They aren't mutually exclusive. Given that Sagan fathered five children, I guess at least someone touched his private parts sometimes.
 
Because people didn't evolve to sit there, awestruck at the cosmos. They evolved to convince other people to touch their privates.

They aren't mutually exclusive. Given that Sagan fathered five children, I guess at least someone touched his private parts sometimes.

Yea, a guy who sits there, awestruck at the cosmos is more likely to get his privates touched. Eventually, it all leads back to fathering five children.
 
Late in life he admitted using pot for inspiration....
 
Because people didn't evolve to sit there, awestruck at the cosmos. They evolved to convince other people to touch their privates.

Yes, biological imperatives have long preoccupied the vast majority of human individuals. If it's not procreation, it's food or shelter. Until very recently we (collectively) have been too busy to bother with useless stuff like being awestruck. Unfortunately, most of those who have been able to rise above ever needing those things, are the same individuals whose nature condemns them to preoccupation with satisfying those primal instincts, even when they have been satisfied beyond all actual need. Most of the rest of us, now that we are not all constantly focused on survival and the perpetuation of the species, DO find time to experience wonder, at least occasionally. Or at least I do - and hope the same for others!
 
Because people didn't evolve to sit there, awestruck at the cosmos. They evolved to convince other people to touch their privates.

Yes, biological imperatives have long preoccupied the vast majority of human individuals. If it's not procreation, it's food or shelter. Until very recently we (collectively) have been too busy to bother with useless stuff like being awestruck. Unfortunately, most of those who have been able to rise above ever needing those things, are the same individuals whose nature condemns them to preoccupation with satisfying those primal instincts, even when they have been satisfied beyond all actual need. Most of the rest of us, now that we are not all constantly focused on survival and the perpetuation of the species, DO find time to experience wonder, at least occasionally. Or at least I do - and hope the same for others!

Eh, I've had enough awe and wonder, but I'm up for someone telling me (or doing something) new.
 
Because people didn't evolve to sit there, awestruck at the cosmos. They evolved to convince other people to touch their privates.

Yes, biological imperatives have long preoccupied the vast majority of human individuals. If it's not procreation, it's food or shelter. Until very recently we (collectively) have been too busy to bother with useless stuff like being awestruck. Unfortunately, most of those who have been able to rise above ever needing those things, are the same individuals whose nature condemns them to preoccupation with satisfying those primal instincts, even when they have been satisfied beyond all actual need. Most of the rest of us, now that we are not all constantly focused on survival and the perpetuation of the species, DO find time to experience wonder, at least occasionally. Or at least I do - and hope the same for others!

Eh, I've had enough awe and wonder, but I'm up for someone telling me (or doing something) new.

Heh ... had enough of them touching your privates, eh? :D
 
I figure it's because we're all too busy chasing money and stuff. We spend a lot of time accumulating wealth.

I've been awestruck from a young age. I was awestruck by science fiction. Then nature. Still am. The expanse of the universe. It's just too much for me. Hell, I was awestruck by search radar processing. That someone (Raytheon's aliens) could come up with that shit that I could barely wrap my little brain around.

I just need to start being a kid again. That's my problem: adulthood.


Bow chicka bow wow.

That reminds me of "Brown chicken, brown cow."
 
Late in life he admitted using pot for inspiration....

Well obviously then we should all be doing some rolling if that's all it takes.

Carl was one smart mother fucker, loved his planet, and didn't let his private parts get in the way.

Cornell ought to have his statue front and center on campus right there with Ezra and E.B.
 
A while ago I came across the term "Saganist". As defined in Urban Dictionary:

One who participates in the school of thought known as Saganism.

One who maintains an awestruck perspective of the vast cosmos we inhabit so minutely and the wonder of billions of years of evolution that brought us to this moment.
One who finds a source of complete spiritual satisfaction in the natural laws of the universe and the achievements of mankind's scientific practice thus far.

Emphasis is placed upon the duty of care for our planet, the need for ambitious space exploration programs, the folly of religion, nationalism and war, but also the need for compassion in the face of small-mindedness and zealotry.

The world would be an incredible place if all human beings were Saganists.

I'm not really a fan of being an -ist named after a single person. But in any case, Carl Sagan was a really great guy, and I find his sentiment, an summarized in the quote to be very desirable. Why isn't this the predominant sentiment of the world? Think of how different such a world would be compared to the one we inhabit right now.

In a "Saganist" world, science and critical thinking would be core subjects in school and every child would receive excellent education in them. Global warming would have been taken seriously decades ago, not as of now, a half-assed wake-up when it might be almost too late. The pale blue dot would be well-cared for, and not just for humans, but for other animals as well. There would be ambitious plans and projects for space exploration and colonization. Religion would be a fringe phenomena, Christianity and Islam not viewed as qualitively different that Norse mythology and Egyptian mythology.

Hey, I can dream!

Saganists have to reconcile their beliefs with atheism/scientism which insists that you can't get an ought from an is.

Sure, we ought to care for one another and the planet and other species because it feels like the right the right thing to do and my Saganism makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. I hear whales singing, there's dolphins and John Denver music... And then I'm jolted back into reality. The selfish genes. The godless law of the jungle. Survival of the fittest. The unguided, unintended, unloving brute facts of Darwinian evolution.

Pale Blue Dot? Yawn..


I mean...AUM
162666155_om-ohm-aum-hindu-buddhist-meditation-mandala-stickers.jpg
 
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A while ago I came across the term "Saganist". As defined in Urban Dictionary:

One who participates in the school of thought known as Saganism.

One who maintains an awestruck perspective of the vast cosmos we inhabit so minutely and the wonder of billions of years of evolution that brought us to this moment.
One who finds a source of complete spiritual satisfaction in the natural laws of the universe and the achievements of mankind's scientific practice thus far.

Emphasis is placed upon the duty of care for our planet, the need for ambitious space exploration programs, the folly of religion, nationalism and war, but also the need for compassion in the face of small-mindedness and zealotry.

The world would be an incredible place if all human beings were Saganists.

I'm not really a fan of being an -ist named after a single person. But in any case, Carl Sagan was a really great guy, and I find his sentiment, an summarized in the quote to be very desirable. Why isn't this the predominant sentiment of the world? Think of how different such a world would be compared to the one we inhabit right now.

In a "Saganist" world, science and critical thinking would be core subjects in school and every child would receive excellent education in them. Global warming would have been taken seriously decades ago, not as of now, a half-assed wake-up when it might be almost too late. The pale blue dot would be well-cared for, and not just for humans, but for other animals as well. There would be ambitious plans and projects for space exploration and colonization. Religion would be a fringe phenomena, Christianity and Islam not viewed as qualitively different that Norse mythology and Egyptian mythology.

Hey, I can dream!

I don't agree with Saganism for a few reasons. Firstly, it implies that "spiritual satisfaction" is something worth having, and that the universe in its natural state is equipped to provide it. It glorifies the processes that brought humans to their current condition, when there is not necessarily a good reason to do so, unless you uncritically regard their current condition as something good. That, really, is what everything else hinges on: everything about our being here and how we came to be here is just marvelous, and our job is to keep it that way by resisting the contrary forces of religion, nationalism, and war, all foreign invaders who can only sully the majesty of things in their natural state.

I dispute all of those assumptions. It bothers me somewhat that as an atheist, I'm expected to regard the cosmos with a reverence and appreciation that somehow is justified by its being there. What if I want to think the universe is a gigantic useless trash heap? Do I have to regard this chaotic place, where nothing is guaranteed to go our way and cold empty darkness surrounds us on all sides, as some kind of rapturous miracle?

Moreso than that, I hate the idea that once we all agree to value "critical thinking" and replace religion with science, we've laid the groundwork for solving most of humanity's problems. We can stop there, and not dramatically alter any aspect of our view of the world, of people, or of society, and just use the scientific method for everything. Not that Saganism explicitly makes any of those things forbidden, but in practice, people who adopt that kind of worldview tend not to be very interested in political or social issues; if they are, they turn out to be milquetoast centrists (or, worse, neoconservative war hawks). I have maintained for a little while now that there is a link between fervently believing in the positive value of human life and the glory of natural existence, and the willingness to regard certain humans as dispensable casualties of war, necessary victims in the fight for "enlightenment values", or the like. Only a radical pessimist, who knows that life is not all that great and nature is not anybody's friend, is capable of treating the humanity of others as truly inviolable.

And such a pessimist would not relish the prospect of galactic colonization with delight. What is the automatic justification for a strategy that would, regardless of how smoothly it went, almost certainly multiply the number of people living in wretched poverty by several orders of magnitude, unless we turn our attention to the pressing concerns of political and social justice that simply aren't part of the vocabulary of popular science writers? To simply posit perpetual expansion of human activity as a worthy goal in itself, as if (again) the experience of being a human is unreservedly, unquestionably positive as long as we all think critically and avoid superstition, is overly simplistic.

So, between a religious person who has decided that God is a madman for allowing such suffering to exist on the same planet as such wealth, and a secular humanist who enjoys Michio Kaku books while treating some people as inferior because they go to church, I would rather live in a world run by the former.
 
And then I'm jolted back into reality. The selfish genes. The godless law of the jungle. Survival of the fittest. The unguided, unintended, unloving brute facts of Darwinian evolution.

Ah you figured it out, good for you.

Hopefully in your disingenuity you've at least figured it out that there's no reason we have to be unloving. This is where Sagan was at. Love your fellow man, the world, the universe, not because it makes sense in some kind of material way, but because that's what true spirituality is.

All Christianity is, is a bunch of of people relying on an outdated moral code so they don't have to worry about dying. Not spirituality. Illusory.
 
I dispute all of those assumptions. It bothers me somewhat that as an atheist, I'm expected to regard the cosmos with a reverence and appreciation that somehow is justified by its being there. What if I want to think the universe is a gigantic useless trash heap? Do I have to regard this chaotic place, where nothing is guaranteed to go our way and cold empty darkness surrounds us on all sides, as some kind of rapturous miracle?

You'll never sell any books with that attitude! :D

Seriously, I agree. While there is some essence of many of these science writers that I agree with, a lot of it is selling kool-aid for profit. People buy into the hype of science, and it becomes a profitable industry.
 
And then I'm jolted back into reality. The selfish genes. The godless law of the jungle. Survival of the fittest. The unguided, unintended, unloving brute facts of Darwinian evolution.

Ah you figured it out, good for you.

Hopefully in your disingenuity you've at least figured it out that there's no reason we have to be unloving. This is where Sagan was at. Love your fellow man, the world, the universe, not because it makes sense in some kind of material way, but because that's what true spirituality is.

All Christianity is, is a bunch of of people relying on an outdated moral code so they don't have to worry about dying. Not spirituality. Illusory.

I would go even further and say the sobering realization that nature is unloving is reason to be compassionate toward others. If the worst I can say about an innocent man who is murdered is that he is now in the best possible state of existence conceivable for all eternity, then murdering innocent people doesn't seem like doing much harm, at least not to the victims. I have to expand my idea of human solidarity in a way that only mutual suffering and shared struggle can achieve, which is the essential ethical message of Christianity as taught by Christ, but not really by Christians. The Christian worldview is actually a pessimistic one in a sense: everyone is fallen and wretched, without value, doomed to a hard life, so you should take this as a signal to discard any thoughts about your own superiority you may have, for whatever reason, and just help other people get by. But it loses that emphasis in the next breath when it promises infinite rewards for a select few and endless punishment for the rest, which by all indications was a power play by the early Church and not anything Christ was focused on, if he actually existed. The same message can be found in other sources, though, and insofar as these were not corrupted as much by organized power for political reasons, they are perhaps better.

- - - Updated - - -

I dispute all of those assumptions. It bothers me somewhat that as an atheist, I'm expected to regard the cosmos with a reverence and appreciation that somehow is justified by its being there. What if I want to think the universe is a gigantic useless trash heap? Do I have to regard this chaotic place, where nothing is guaranteed to go our way and cold empty darkness surrounds us on all sides, as some kind of rapturous miracle?

You'll never sell any books with that attitude! :D

Seriously, I agree. While there is some essence of many of these science writers that I agree with, a lot of it is selling kool-aid for profit. People buy into the hype of science, and it becomes a profitable industry.

There's some profit in being a gloom-monger too. John Gray and Thomas Ligotti have made careers out of it.
 
I would go even further and say the sobering realization that nature is unloving is reason to be compassionate toward others.

That's exactly it.

There is no realization in religion, no type of real awakening, just blind following the leader that feels like spirituality, while you don't notice yourself cheating your own friends and family.

A 'Saganist' would look at even someone like the above and understand that it's not their own personal failing, they didn't choose to be that way. A Saganist would think to themselves: 'the world is a shitty place but I'm going to try to make it more comfortable for others, even if they intend to do me harm'

In fairness, though, that type of perspective is, in practice, out of reach for most people.
 
I don't agree with Saganism for a few reasons. Firstly, it implies that "spiritual satisfaction" is something worth having, and that the universe in its natural state is equipped to provide it. It glorifies the processes that brought humans to their current condition, when there is not necessarily a good reason to do so, unless you uncritically regard their current condition as something good. That, really, is what everything else hinges on: everything about our being here and how we came to be here is just marvelous, and our job is to keep it that way by resisting the contrary forces of religion, nationalism, and war, all foreign invaders who can only sully the majesty of things in their natural state.

That's not really what is being said though. Many scientists have taken a similar perspective as Sagan, for example Richard Dawkins. He maintains the necessity of creating an anti-Darwinian society.

I dispute all of those assumptions. It bothers me somewhat that as an atheist, I'm expected to regard the cosmos with a reverence and appreciation that somehow is justified by its being there. What if I want to think the universe is a gigantic useless trash heap? Do I have to regard this chaotic place, where nothing is guaranteed to go our way and cold empty darkness surrounds us on all sides, as some kind of rapturous miracle?

No, it's your choice.

Moreso than that, I hate the idea that once we all agree to value "critical thinking" and replace religion with science, we've laid the groundwork for solving most of humanity's problems.

I would certainly maintain that science and critical thinking are preferable to ideology, of which religion is just one kind.

We can stop there, and not dramatically alter any aspect of our view of the world, of people, or of society, and just use the scientific method for everything. Not that Saganism explicitly makes any of those things forbidden, but in practice, people who adopt that kind of worldview tend not to be very interested in political or social issues; if they are, they turn out to be milquetoast centrists (or, worse, neoconservative war hawks). I have maintained for a little while now that there is a link between fervently believing in the positive value of human life and the glory of natural existence, and the willingness to regard certain humans as dispensable casualties of war, necessary victims in the fight for "enlightenment values", or the like. Only a radical pessimist, who knows that life is not all that great and nature is not anybody's friend, is capable of treating the humanity of others as truly inviolable.

And such a pessimist would not relish the prospect of galactic colonization with delight. What is the automatic justification for a strategy that would, regardless of how smoothly it went, almost certainly multiply the number of people living in wretched poverty by several orders of magnitude, unless we turn our attention to the pressing concerns of political and social justice that simply aren't part of the vocabulary of popular science writers? To simply posit perpetual expansion of human activity as a worthy goal in itself, as if (again) the experience of being a human is unreservedly, unquestionably positive as long as we all think critically and avoid superstition, is overly simplistic.

So, between a religious person who has decided that God is a madman for allowing such suffering to exist on the same planet as such wealth, and a secular humanist who enjoys Michio Kaku books while treating some people as inferior because they go to church, I would rather live in a world run by the former.

There is a lot of citation needed here.
 
And then I'm jolted back into reality. The selfish genes. The godless law of the jungle. Survival of the fittest. The unguided, unintended, unloving brute facts of Darwinian evolution.

Ah you figured it out, good for you.

Hopefully in your disingenuity you've at least figured it out that there's no reason we have to be unloving. This is where Sagan was at. Love your fellow man, the world, the universe, not because it makes sense in some kind of material way, but because that's what true spirituality is.

All Christianity is, is a bunch of of people relying on an outdated moral code so they don't have to worry about dying. Not spirituality. Illusory.

Christians ultimately seek self-glorification in heaven. Earth is expendable. Many do good things, but only out of this hedonistic desire to be personally and eternally rewarded. They know no other way.
 
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