Did Job consent to be the object of a test by God because of Satan's dare?

[Lion IRC]

You forget that Job and God were going to live happily ever after until satan rudely stuck his nose into other people's business and STARTED the whole thing.

satan was the one with the questionable moral/ethical standards and it was he trying to prove a point not God.

As for cursing God, atheists don't need to assume God exists to curse Him. Sam Harris' video is a good example of using the so-called 'problem' of suffering to curse God. That's what satan was trying to get Job to do - contemplate suffering and then blame, hate, curse, reject, turn his back on God.

God offers us a clear model of happiness - heaven, His Kingdom, the best of all possible worlds - and satan hates the fact that there are people like Job who are happy in such a world. So satan, like Sam Harris, thinks if he can drag Job thru the dirt of this fallen imperfect world and inflict more and more suffering, then Job will join he and Sam Harris in cursing God.

 

[abaddon]

Killing people and inflicting suffering is wrong. No one needs God to tell them so, humans determine this themselves. In Job, "the satan" kills people and inflicts suffering while God watches on. That God lets him do it is wrong. If God wants you to disbelieve that he's wrong, that's a call to reject your "god-given" reason. And that's wrong. A person becomes less than human to do that, it's a kind of psychological vivisection of one's own being.

So if "cursing" is the word you want to use, then "cursing God" is the reasonable response. If Satan wasn't killing people and making them suffer, if he was just testing their blind faith in God without hurting them, then he'd be the hero of the story. Asking people to reason it through and recognize where the blame for suffering belongs is rational and good for people. If it were true that God exists and he's all-powerful, then the blame by logical necessity belongs to God.

God's model for happiness is your abject obeisance to him, upon threat of horrific suffering in hell. "Believe in me, and believe I'm good no matter what, or you'll suffer". (How "happy" is that really?) Humans, on the other hand, can find more effective ways to the goal of happiness -- by studying what human nature is like and what demonstrably makes them happy. And it doesn't require they give up on reason and dignity and indulge bizarre metaphysical fantasies about a "best of all possible worlds".

 

[Tom Sawyer]

You forget that Job and God were going to live happily ever after until satan rudely stuck his nose into other people's business and STARTED the whole thing.

satan was the one with the questionable moral/ethical standards and it was he trying to prove a point not God.

As for cursing God, atheists don't need to assume God exists to curse Him. Sam Harris' video is a good example of using the so-called 'problem' of suffering to curse God. That's what satan was trying to get Job to do - contemplate suffering and then blame, hate, curse, reject, turn his back on God.

God offers us a clear model of happiness - heaven, His Kingdom, the best of all possible worlds - and satan hates the fact that there are people like Job who are happy in such a world. So satan, like Sam Harris, thinks if he can drag Job thru the dirt of this fallen imperfect world and inflict more and more suffering, then Job will join he and Sam Harris in cursing God.

But Satan didn't actually do anything. All the actions taken against Job were taken by God. Since God isn't actually Satan's puppet, he's responsible for his own actions.

 

[James Brown]

But Satan didn't actually do anything. All the actions taken against Job were taken by God. Since God isn't actually Satan's puppet, he's responsible for his own actions.

Actually, not correct. Satan did the dirty work, having first received Jehovah's permission. In 1:12, Jehovah said, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” In 2:6, Jehovah said, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life."

Two things I've never heard good explanations for from evangelical Christians. First, to hear their sermons today, Satan doesn't first get God's permission to torment believers in our modern age. Second, what is this odd mythology going on in the book of Job? Who were all these 'sons of God' that present themselves before Jehovah (1:6 and 2:1)? How is it that Satan is allowed to come before Jehovah and engage in office pools? Wasn't he banished for trying to overthrow Jehovah?

For that matter, what human author was privy to these supernatural conversations in order to write them down?

It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

But Satan didn't actually do anything. All the actions taken against Job were taken by God. Since God isn't actually Satan's puppet, he's responsible for his own actions.

Actually, not correct. Satan did the dirty work, having first received Jehovah's permission. In 1:12, Jehovah said, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” In 2:6, Jehovah said, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life."

Two things I've never heard good explanations for from evangelical Christians. First, to hear their sermons today, Satan doesn't first get God's permission to torment believers in our modern age. Second, what is this odd mythology going on in the book of Job? Who were all these 'sons of God' that present themselves before Jehovah (1:6 and 2:1)? How is it that Satan is allowed to come before Jehovah and engage in office pools? Wasn't he banished for trying to overthrow Jehovah?

For that matter, what human author was privy to these supernatural conversations in order to write them down?

It just doesn't make sense.

Hey, you're right. He still did it on the orders of God, though, so the buck stops there.

 

[DBT]

You forget that Job and God were going to live happily ever after until satan rudely stuck his nose into other people's business and STARTED the whole thing.

That, according to the narrative, being the very role Satan was created for. To play an adversarial role. God Himself being the Author of Evil. Nothing happening without His 'by your leave,' including the existence and role of Satan as an agent of God.

 

[blastula]

But God was at Almighty Satan's mercy. He had no choice.

 

[ideologyhunter]

That's right. It would've been a much different Book of Job if it had been a coffee conference between God, Satan, and Oprah. The Big O woulda proved Job's goodness with one guest shot.

 

[Underseer]

This is a compare/contrast to the Virgin Mary consent issue.

Also, now that I think about it, what about the plot of "Trading Places" for a wager between two powerful people that turned a man's life upside down?

So let me guess. You're going to try and suggest that people are being unfair to men somehow in how we talk about these issues?

Do you ever stop playing the victim? Doesn't all this whining and crying get, I dunno, tiring after a while?

 

[Rhea]

This is a compare/contrast to the Virgin Mary consent issue.

Also, now that I think about it, what about the plot of "Trading Places" for a wager between two powerful people that turned a man's life upside down?

So let me guess. You're going to try and suggest that people are being unfair to men somehow in how we talk about these issues?

Do you ever stop playing the victim? Doesn't all this whining and crying get, I dunno, tiring after a while?

I’m not sure you’re responding to the right person here...