prophecy....

[Keith&Co.]

Thinking about Biblical Prophecy.
Supposedly, the Bible is full up of people speaking of Future Events with the power of the divine.

Foretelling the Messiah, for one. Revelation, for another.
Often told that we can trust the Truth of the Bible because the prophecies in it prove God was involved, because only He can see the future.

Which makes me think of Noah's Flood.

The purpose of the Flood was given in chapter 6.

6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

The effectiveness of the Flood was in chapter 8.

8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth ; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Wasn't effective.
God realized that if you have man, you're gonna have evil. It's just intrinsic.

So all the death was without purpose. Didn't accomplish anything.

You would think someone with the power to see the future would LOOK into the future at the beginning of every project, just to see how it'd turn out. Maybe alter the plan to make it successful, or abandon the plan if it won't be...

How can I trust the predictions of someone who can't stop himself from making such a murderous mistake?

 

[Lion IRC]

*Disclaimer - this is a discussion - started by an atheist - about God's motive for punishing evil. Any resemblance to 'preaching' in my replies is purely coincidental.

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I don't think The Flood was intended to take away man's ability to choose between good and evil. Where is that in the text?

What the Flood did do is show that God has the universal ability and intent to punish unrepentant evil. We have been warned.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

According to Christian theology, original sin is responsible for man's evil behavior. Why then God allows moral evil, original sin to exist is a question no theologian has ever been able to explain. Some tell us it has to do with free will, but original sin destroys free will. As theology goes, none of this makes any sense at all. Not if as theologians claim, God is wise and intelligent beyond mere human abilities.

And as for prophecies, the major prophets, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah gave us claimed prophecies that were to occur after the Jews returned to their homeland post-Babylonian captivity. None even came close to being true. And thus are studiously ignored by Christians.

 

[funinspace]

Thinking about Biblical Prophecy.
Supposedly, the Bible is full up of people speaking of Future Events with the power of the divine.

Foretelling the Messiah, for one. Revelation, for another.
Often told that we can trust the Truth of the Bible because the prophecies in it prove God was involved, because only He can see the future.

Which makes me think of Noah's Flood.

Do not try and comprehend the Deluge, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth...there was no Deluge.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Thinking about Biblical Prophecy.
Supposedly, the Bible is full up of people speaking of Future Events with the power of the divine.

Foretelling the Messiah, for one. Revelation, for another.
Often told that we can trust the Truth of the Bible because the prophecies in it prove God was involved, because only He can see the future.

Which makes me think of Noah's Flood.

Do not try and comprehend the Deluge, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth...there was no Deluge.

But it's part and parcel to the myth cycle.
They sell the whole bible as revealed and relevant to my situation today.
The omnipotent and omniscient god who has existed forever didn't take off for Vegas for a month and come back to find AsstGod bailing like mad. Same guy wasted all that time and those lives, but has A Plan for my immortal soul.

 

[abaddon]

Thinking about Biblical Prophecy.
Supposedly, the Bible is full up of people speaking of Future Events with the power of the divine.

Foretelling the Messiah, for one. Revelation, for another.
Often told that we can trust the Truth of the Bible because the prophecies in it prove God was involved, because only He can see the future.

Which makes me think of Noah's Flood.

Do not try and comprehend the Deluge, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth...there was no Deluge.

As there were no prophecies. The character in the Bible called "God" is exactly as one would expect -- an all-too-human reflection of his creators. He changes his mind, moods, and violent outbursts as capriciously as an impulse-driven ape.

 

[abaddon]

But it's part and parcel to the myth cycle.
They sell the whole bible as revealed and relevant to my situation today.
The omnipotent and omniscient god who has existed forever didn't take off for Vegas for a month and come back to find AsstGod bailing like mad. Same guy wasted all that time and those lives, but has A Plan for my immortal soul.

It's hard to imagine a more horrific "worldview". One where nothing's predictable and there's a capricious God that makes and breaks promises. But, he's worshipful because he'll squish ya if you don't!

 

[lpetrich]

As to Jesus Christ fulfilling prophecies, I think that it was his biographers who made him seem to do so, though if there was a historical Jesus Christ, he may have tried to fulfill some prophecies with his actions.

As to prophecy fulfillment, Jesus Christ was far from alone (List of Lord Raglan evaluations | Atheism | FANDOM powered by Wikia). Krishna, the Buddha, Zeus, Theseus, Perseus, Oedipus, Romulus, Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar, King Arthur, Anakin Skywalker, and Harry Potter all fulfilled prophecies.

 

[Politesse]

I don't think YHWH, in the Hebrew Scriptures at least, is presented as infallible; he changes his mind on many occasions. Prophecy, such as it is, seems more to me a matter of communicating with God as things stand at the moment than "telling the future". Like all forms of divination, it is limited by the imagination of the interpreter and the changeability of the world. While some may try to find in the Daniel or the Apocalypse of John some sort of year-by-year accounting of the future, I doubt very much that this was the intent of either book (or it would have just included years and names to make things clear). Rather, both are deeply symbolic works that could apply to a lot of different situations as needed. You don't get much more vague than Jesus' "there will be wars and rumors of wars". There are, indeed, many wars and rumors of wars at any moment in time since empires began to carpet the world in violence. His advice, essentially not to freak out but rather to focus on what is important regardless, is equally good advice during all of those wars. Does it really make the text more important to interpret it as some carnival fortune-tellers' trick?

Before the customary yabbut: yes, I know a lot of Christians see and treat the book exactly that way. I think they are misguided.

 

[steve_bank]

From what I read it was common to create and spread a prophesy and the have somebody fulfill it.

The Jews at the time were looking for a new king to restore Jews to power. I doubt many Jews under Ryman occupation wanted to hear about turning the other cheek. Or giving to Caesar what is Caesar's. In the context of the geopolitics of the day tmat makes JC sound like a Roman shill and apologist.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Before the customary yabbut: yes, I know a lot of Christians see and treat the book exactly that way. I think they are misguided.

And those would be the CAPS LOCK Christains that brought me to this line of thinking. The "There are app 10,385 Bible prophecies. NOT ONE has ever been wrong" literalists.

If someone has a more rational approach to the Bible and it's contents, and the major shift between OT and NT God, that's great. But most of them aren't trying to bring back stoning of gays and disobedient children.

 

[funinspace]

Thinking about Biblical Prophecy.
Supposedly, the Bible is full up of people speaking of Future Events with the power of the divine.

Foretelling the Messiah, for one. Revelation, for another.
Often told that we can trust the Truth of the Bible because the prophecies in it prove God was involved, because only He can see the future.

Which makes me think of Noah's Flood.

Do not try and comprehend the Deluge, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth...there was no Deluge.

But it's part and parcel to the myth cycle.
They sell the whole bible as revealed and relevant to my situation today.
The omnipotent and omniscient god who has existed forever didn't take off for Vegas for a month and come back to find AsstGod bailing like mad. Same guy wasted all that time and those lives, but has A Plan for my immortal soul.

Ok, you don't like the spoon. Actually, Yahweh did the bad deed cuz he was all pissy about those godlings roaming the earth and porking all the pretty girls and messing up his DNA design. He just couldn't come out and say it bluntly to us humans. So Yahweh forced them to go back above the canopy with the Deluge.

Anywho, you are right that it is another weird thingy relative to the Deluge fantasy that the God-breathed Bible types have to re-package...

 

[Learner]

The earth's surface being 71% water imo, shouldn't seem so difficult to think that a deluge in the past , could have been quite plausible / possible.

 

[Keith&Co.]

The earth's surface being 71% water doesn't imo, seem so difficult to think that a deluge in the past , could have been quite plausible / possible.

Now, on a completely different note, from the OP, how do I trust the claims of prophecy attributed to the god that couldn't foresee his own failure from a mere year previous?

 

[funinspace]

The earth's surface being 71% water imo, shouldn't seem so difficult to think that a deluge in the past , could have been quite plausible / possible.

Uhm, not only is a world engulfing flood not plausible, it is clearly not possible due to many areas of scientific knowledge. Even disregarding the whole 'enough water' issue, which at least has the excuse of getting into more complex science, we have ice core records going back around 700,000 years; we have a continuum of tree ring chronology going back about 12,500 years; coral reefs can be shown to be hundreds of thousands of years old.

One pretty much has to pretend that vast areas of scientific knowledge were developed by people who are delusional, to make the Deluge work...or simple be ignorant oneself. C.S. Lewis had it right over half a century ago, the Deluge is fantasy.

 

[Learner]

Uhm, not only is a world engulfing flood not plausible, it is clearly not possible due to many areas of scientific knowledge. Even disregarding the whole 'enough water' issue, which at least has the excuse of getting into more complex science, we have ice core records going back around 700,000 years; we have a continuum of tree ring chronology going back about 12,500 years; coral reefs can be shown to be hundreds of thousands of years old.

One pretty much has to pretend that vast areas of scientific knowledge were developed by people who are delusional, to make the Deluge work...or simple be ignorant oneself. C.S. Lewis had it right over half a century ago, the Deluge is fantasy.

There are quite a few factors to clear up, which are of course debateable. Sea fossils (whale bones and seashells) on mountains and building formations and old ruins still lay fathoms deep, under the sea. The ice itself wasn't there in places , as you mention of "ice core records" ,where plants for example , are found in ice cores.

One pretty much has to pretend that vast areas of scientific knowledge were developed by people who are delusional, to make the Deluge work...or simple be ignorant oneself. C.S. Lewis had it right over half a century ago, the Deluge is fantasy.

Interestingly I'd wonder if he would have said the same thing today (not that it matters).

 

[lpetrich]

The earth's surface being 71% water imo, shouldn't seem so difficult to think that a deluge in the past , could have been quite plausible / possible.

Our planet's land surface would need a lot of flattening for that to happen. There isn't enough water in our planet's crust for that. In the deep interior, almost certainly, but it would be hard for that water to get up to the surface very fast.

Sea fossils (whale bones and seashells) on mountains ...

Yawn. "Flood Geology" was discredited long ago.

Thes fossils are embedded in rocks, and rocks with a big range of ages. Geologists understand that very well. These rocks were once sediments on continental shelves and the like, and they became consolidated from heat and pressure as other sediments accumulated on top of them. Then they were pushed up by continents colliding and the like.

 

[funinspace]

Uhm, not only is a world engulfing flood not plausible, it is clearly not possible due to many areas of scientific knowledge. Even disregarding the whole 'enough water' issue, which at least has the excuse of getting into more complex science, we have ice core records going back around 700,000 years; we have a continuum of tree ring chronology going back about 12,500 years; coral reefs can be shown to be hundreds of thousands of years old.

One pretty much has to pretend that vast areas of scientific knowledge were developed by people who are delusional, to make the Deluge work...or simple be ignorant oneself. C.S. Lewis had it right over half a century ago, the Deluge is fantasy.

There are quite a few factors to clear up, which are of course debateable. Sea fossils (whale bones and seashells) on mountains and building formations and old ruins still lay fathoms deep, under the sea. The ice itself wasn't there in places , as you mention of "ice core records" ,where plants for example , are found in ice cores.

I see that you are going for the delusional scientists across a multitude of fields...good thing this delusional disease doesn't hamper our medical research scientists who can now play with our DNA and replace hearts, nor confuse the guys that can put probes on other planets and asteroids.

One pretty much has to pretend that vast areas of scientific knowledge were developed by people who are delusional, to make the Deluge work...or simple be ignorant oneself. C.S. Lewis had it right over half a century ago, the Deluge is fantasy.

Interestingly I'd wonder if he would have said the same thing today (not that it matters).

I would expect he would say the same thing today (all other things frozen), as he wasn't a 'God breathed Bible' type, and that the science is even more clear than it was 70 years ago (not that it wasn't clear then).

 

[steve_bank]

The earth's surface being 71% water imo, shouldn't seem so difficult to think that a deluge in the past , could have been quite plausible / possible.

Given that the geology hasn't changed much and given the depth of regions of the oceans and total volume of the ocean water to evaporate all of it and come down as rain covering the highest mountains would ignore scince and have to be an act of god so to speak.

It would take a lot of heat to change all that liquid water to vapor in the atmospheres. If Everest was covered with water wouldn't it just run back into the ocean? Unless the amount of water suddenly increased water would run into the lower ocean, you could never cover the Cascade Mountains in the Northwest. To ancient superstitious people a catastrophic hurricane like we have wield be consider apocalyptic. New Orleans was flooded. Houston was flooded.

In the 80s a long stretch of storms in the mid west caused a long stretch of floods along the Mississippi River.

If you believe in creationism then you can believeour reality is a cartoon like animation that god can change at any time. Cartoons violate sconce all the time.

 

[funinspace]

The earth's surface being 71% water imo, shouldn't seem so difficult to think that a deluge in the past , could have been quite plausible / possible.

Given that the geology hasn't changed much and given the depth of regions of the oceans and total volume of the ocean water to evaporate all of it and come down as rain covering the highest mountains would ignore scince and have to be an act of god so to speak.

It would take a lot of heat to change all that liquid water to vapor in the atmospheres. If Everest was covered with water wouldn't it just run back into the ocean?

One just needs to invoke unmentioned miracle #69 where Yahweh only later made tall bad ass mountains after fabled Deluge, thereby only needing twice the amount of water available