The Garden Of Eden

[DrZoidberg]

The bible 600BC ? LOL

Solomon pre-dates Ptolemy
Samuel pre-dates Solomon
Moses pre-dates Samuel
Abraham pre-dates Moses
Job pre-dates Abraham.
...and the book of Job dates to Mesopotamian / Akkadian / Egyptian Middle Kingdom

Noah pre-dates everyone. So the claim that Noah is a 6th century BC plagiarism is simply false.

Oh wow, does this mean you are actually ready to give me the dates for biblical events I keep asking for? If you know that Solomon predates Ptolemy (how?) then maybe you can say which Pharaoh it was who Moses drowned in the Red Sea?

Also, do I need to point out how easy it is to write a story set at an earlier time than when you are writing it?

It seems to me that you have very specific ideas of chronology when it suits you, and then feign (or admit) ignorance when it suits you.

I think it's well established that the Pharaoh described in the Old Testament can only be Ramses II. We have Ramses II's mummy, and we've studied it. He died in his bed of old age with a multitude of crippling diseases. And more importantly, didn't die from drowning. There's just no way that old geezer could have been galloping on a horse anywhere. But there's more inconsistencies. The city they fled from was Pi Ramses. But that city was founded and named after Ramses II's death. But there's lots more inconsistencies. The plagues never happened as described. That would have been something the Egyptians wrote down. Not to mention that a bunch of slaves running away, would certainly be something worth noting.

It's pretty clear that the Exodus narrative was written by people who had no idea about Egypt other than distant rumours. Perhaps Moses was a single runaway slave from Egypt? Who was hunted and he got away. And then became a prominent figure among a Caananite group who took him in. Who knows? But we do know that the Biblical narrative is bullshit.

 

[funinspace]

The bible 600BC ? LOL

Solomon pre-dates Ptolemy
Samuel pre-dates Solomon
Moses pre-dates Samuel
Abraham pre-dates Moses
Job pre-dates Abraham.
...and the book of Job dates to Mesopotamian / Akkadian / Egyptian Middle Kingdom

Noah pre-dates everyone. So the claim that Noah is a 6th century BC plagiarism is simply false.

Oh wow, does this mean you are actually ready to give me the dates for biblical events I keep asking for? If you know that Solomon predates Ptolemy (how?) then maybe you can say which Pharaoh it was who Moses drowned in the Red Sea?

Also, do I need to point out how easy it is to write a story set at an earlier time than when you are writing it?

It seems to me that you have very specific ideas of chronology when it suits you, and then feign (or admit) ignorance when it suits you.

I think it's well established that the Pharaoh described in the Old Testament can only be Ramses II. We have Ramses II's mummy, and we've studied it. He died in his bed of old age with a multitude of crippling diseases. And more importantly, didn't die from drowning. There's just no way that old geezer could have been galloping on a horse anywhere. But there's more inconsistencies. The city they fled from was Pi Ramses. But that city was founded and named after Ramses II's death. But there's lots more inconsistencies. The plagues never happened as described. That would have been something the Egyptians wrote down. Not to mention that a bunch of slaves running away, would certainly be something worth noting.

It's pretty clear that the Exodus narrative was written by people who had no idea about Egypt other than distant rumours. Perhaps Moses was a single runaway slave from Egypt? Who was hunted and he got away. And then became a prominent figure among a Caananite group who took him in. Who knows? But we do know that the Biblical narrative is bullshit.

The name Moses (Moshe) has an much more obvious meaning in ancient Egyptian as "son of" or "born of" as opposed to the Biblical BS of "to draw out" which is twisted out of Hebrew words that aren't related to the name. The creators of the Exodus fairy tale knew so little that they didn't even figure out how to properly name their Egyptian Hero.

 

[ideologyhunter]

A related finding: Rapunzel can't possibly be true, because the weight of an average grown man would have pulled the hair right off her head, if extended down the length of a tower, even if we calculate the tower at a mere height of say, 8.5 meters and the approximate diameter of the hair rope at, say, 8 or even 12 cm. One would expect hematoma of the scalp and a keloid requiring reconstruction surgery. Hence, the Rapunzelists are hoist on their own petard.

 

[steve_bank]

A related finding: Rapunzel can't possibly be true, because the weight of an average grown man would have pulled the hair right off her head, if extended down the length of a tower, even if we calculate the tower at a mere height of say, 8.5 meters and the approximate diameter of the hair rope at, say, 8 or even 12 cm. One would expect hematoma of the scalp and a keloid requiring reconstruction surgery. Hence, the Rapunzelists are hoist on their own petard.

She could have wrapped her hair around a bedpost....

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqyez-PXDiY

Just watched this on cable. A professor traded through the tales and mapped omto geography. One of the keys were satellite pictures that found the track of a river missing in the tale. A confluence of 4 rivers.

The ancient Jews clearly plagiarized and adapted existing myths.

The conclusion was that ancient traders carries tales back to Santeria of a paradise.
Turns out it is probable it was a real location. A river trading town in a lush area.

8000 years ago the Arabian peninsula was green. The myth evolved of the region being the birthplace of humans.

The Garden never existed. It was a hypothetical wonder land of growth, a perfect place for being a farmer. The whole story is a political narrative about agrarian society.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

She could have wrapped her hair around a bedpost....

How solid could the bed possibly be? The tower was specifically built without any stairs and having the only access being a small window. This means that any bed would need to have been hauled up in pieces and assembled within the room. The tale takes place in pre-IKEA days, so it's not like there was a modular design for a well built bed they could have used. Any bedposts in her room would not be attached to a solid bedframe which could handle the weight of a fully grown man without collapsing.

The Rapunzelist arguments fall apart under even the most basic analysis.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The bible 600BC ? LOL

Solomon pre-dates Ptolemy
Samuel pre-dates Solomon
Moses pre-dates Samuel
Abraham pre-dates Moses
Job pre-dates Abraham.
...and the book of Job dates to Mesopotamian / Akkadian / Egyptian Middle Kingdom

Noah pre-dates everyone. So the claim that Noah is a 6th century BC plagiarism is simply false.

Oh wow, does this mean you are actually ready to give me the dates for biblical events I keep asking for? If you know that Solomon predates Ptolemy (how?) then maybe you can say which Pharaoh it was who Moses drowned in the Red Sea?

Heck, Lion IRC couldn't give you a time when Hebrews were enslaved by the Egyptians... having never actually been enslaved in Egypt.

 

[Lion IRC]

Gee, if the Israelites never left Egypt and never wandered in the desert for forty years looking for a homeland, does that mean nobody invaded Canaan?

Coz a lot of anti-theist counter-apologists use the slaughter of the Canaanites as an example of mean God's nastiness.

 

[funinspace]

Gee, if the Israelites never left Egypt and never wandered in the desert for forty years looking for a homeland, does that mean nobody invaded Canaan?

Coz a lot of anti-theist counter-apologists use the slaughter of the Canaanites as an example of mean God's nastiness.

So are you related to Don the Con?

 

[James Brown]

It is quite the dilemma.

If Jehovah exists and ordered the Israelites to commit genocide, then Jehovah is not worthy of worship.

If the Israelites did not commit genocide but instead arose organically from within Canaan (as the best archaeological evidence suggests) then Jewish writings are not a reliable source of their history. Which means we can set aside other non-supported events like Noah's Deluge, the Fall from Paradise, and the Garden of Eden.

Which side do you fall on, Lion?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Gee, if the Israelites never left Egypt and never wandered in the desert for forty years looking for a homeland, does that mean nobody invaded Canaan?

Coz a lot of anti-theist counter-apologists use the slaughter of the Canaanites as an example of mean God's nastiness.

Well, we also use his murder of a whole bunch of Egyptian children as an example of that and we also use his genocide of pretty much the entire human race as an example of that. We do so with the understanding that neither of those events actually happened, but that doesn’t prevent our saying that a fictional character who is written to have done these things is a fictional character who was written as a nasty asshole.

 

[steve_bank]

Lion is probably getting desperate.

It is clear from the video in general ancient cultures all had mythical other places of one kind or another. Imagined places where they came from.

Given our natural human imaginination it uis not surprising, especily lacking our modern scince.

Unless you want to refute generics, we all trace back to Africa. The spread of humans in different geographical paths has been traced.

If their is a biblical garden and an Adam and Eve it would have been Africa and they would have been dark skinned not white blonde blue eyed.

Looking at a wall map of the region if Moses and company waded for 40 years they would have to go in circles.

 

[Sarpedon]

Gee, if the Israelites never left Egypt and never wandered in the desert for forty years looking for a homeland, does that mean nobody invaded Canaan?

Coz a lot of anti-theist counter-apologists use the slaughter of the Canaanites as an example of mean God's nastiness.

Sure, just like I use Grand Moff Tarkin's destruction of Alderaan as an example of his nastiness. Your complaint would only be valid if the invasion was false and the God were real. We don't think that, and neither do you. So stop wasting your time.

In all seriousness, just because the Hebrews never invaded Canaan, doesn't mean that NOBODY invaded it. The records (real records) show Hittites, Mitannians, Egyptians, Persians, Babylonians, Greeks, etc invading it. Plenty of real chaos and war to base their stories on.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Gee, if the Israelites never left Egypt and never wandered in the desert for forty years looking for a homeland, does that mean nobody invaded Canaan?

Coz a lot of anti-theist counter-apologists use the slaughter of the Canaanites as an example of mean God's nastiness.

Yep. Modern Near Eastern archaeology has debunked the Exodus. No Egyptian captivity. No exodus. No wandering in the wilderness 40 years. No bloody invasion of Canaan. And that means, god on the mountain with Moses was a bullshit tall tale also. God then never commanded murders, massacres and genocides, or committed them as per killing all the first born of Egypt. Which means, if there is indeed really a God, a God that is good and kind, the Bible slanders God's character and smears God's good name. So for thinking people who love God, the Bible needs to be abandoned.

But, we have the supposed nature of God as found in Paul's theology. Original sin. Predestination. Creating some elect and others damned. hardening hearts of the Jews to not believe in Jesus. God is not good despite specific claims God is merciful, just and compassionate. You know my drill by now. Or we can just set the entire NT aside as bullshit by know nothings that paint God as a evil buffoon with an anger management problem. or maybe, the entire NT especially Paul is likewise bullshit.

Now we start with the world around us as we see it. What does that tell us about God if there is a God who created everything? The Holocaust, Stalin, Mao, Idi Amin, today's extremist Jihadis. God doesn't care about us. he makes no appearances, offers no help, does not retrain the moral evil of the world.

Savage microbes, cholera etc. Viruses Protozoan diseases such as brain eating amoebas. Diseases causing germs. Horrific and brutal parasites, Guinea worms, river blindness, screw worms. is this the work of a good God or the result of blind and opportunistic nature? Once we abandon the God of Bible and Quran et al, and consider the God of the deist and philosophers, what does nature tell us about the nature of any possible God? I don't know about anybody else here but the whole God thing doesn't work for me.

 

[bilby]

..

 

[DrZoidberg]

The bible 600BC ? LOL

Solomon pre-dates Ptolemy
Samuel pre-dates Solomon
Moses pre-dates Samuel
Abraham pre-dates Moses
Job pre-dates Abraham.
...and the book of Job dates to Mesopotamian / Akkadian / Egyptian Middle Kingdom

Noah pre-dates everyone. So the claim that Noah is a 6th century BC plagiarism is simply false.

Oh wow, does this mean you are actually ready to give me the dates for biblical events I keep asking for? If you know that Solomon predates Ptolemy (how?) then maybe you can say which Pharaoh it was who Moses drowned in the Red Sea?

Heck, Lion IRC couldn't give you a time when Hebrews were enslaved by the Egyptians... having never actually been enslaved in Egypt.

I think there were plenty of Caananite slaves in Egypt. Egypt fought the Hitites quite a bit. Caanan is the doormat either of them needs to cross to fight. They would have enslaved plenty of Caananites as an aftermath of those battles. But there was no Jewish identity at that point. Caanan were just a collection of city states and warring tribes. The Jewish identity sprung up much later, long after these events.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

People in that day and age usually had theophoric names. Names that refered to their gods and helped track ancient people's origins. Archaeology has long known this and has used this phenomena to examine the status of foreigners in ancient Egypt. If there were huge masses of Israelites in Egypt, we would expect that theophoric names of these people would be found fairly readily. The Egyptologists find - no such thing. The Israelites allegedly started out with 75 people in Egypt and left in huge masses after 430 years in Egypt. We would then expect early Israelite languages to be rather Egyptianized with lots of loan words and Egyptian syntax and grammar. No such thing. No Egyptian influences such as in pottery styles. The early Israelites were typical Canaanites.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I have read the Bedpost Rapunzelists ad nauseam (The Cross and the Bedpost by Rick Warren and Joyce Meyer's folksy Get You a Christian Feller with a Mighty Bedpost) and they make specious arguments. There is no mention of a bedpost in the earliest texts we have -- therefore, they are writing the Rapunzel narrative they wish to have.

 

[steve_bank]

I have read the Bedpost Rapunzelists ad nauseam (The Cross and the Bedpost by Rick Warren and Joyce Meyer's folksy Get You a Christian Feller with a Mighty Bedpost) and they make specious arguments. There is no mention of a bedpost in the earliest texts we have -- therefore, they are writing the Rapunzel narrative they wish to have.

It doesn't say she didn't use a bedpost. She must have had a bed up there.