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Video essay about Columbus, bad but not pure evil?

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Ethnocentrists "know" that their morality is the absolute morality by which all other cultures should be judged. Assume that, in the next 200 years, Islam is successful in attaining their world caliphate ruled by someone like the current Sultan of Brunei for the previous hundred years. The people of that time (including North America and Europe) would "know" that their morality was the absolute morality. In their eyes, the "decadence" (allowing gays to live, women showing bare arms, etc.) of today's western societies would be widely condemned on 'absolute, universal moral grounds'.

There's nothing ethnocentric about what WE choose to honor with a holiday in OUR time. Also you like others are ignoring the fact that Columbus' actions were seen as atrocities in his own time also.
 
^^^

Ethnocentrists "know" that their morality is the absolute morality by which all other cultures should be judged. Assume that, in the next 200 years, Islam is successful in attaining their world caliphate ruled by someone like the current Sultan of Brunei for the previous hundred years. The people of that time (including North America and Europe) would "know" that their morality was the absolute morality. In their eyes, the "decadence" (allowing gays to live, women showing bare arms, etc.) of today's western societies would be widely condemned on 'absolute, universal moral grounds'.

There's nothing ethnocentric about what WE choose to honor with a holiday in OUR time.
It is if your reason for a visceral opposition is how you morally judge the person based your personal sense of morality - which comes from your current cultural norms.
Also you like others are ignoring the fact that Columbus' actions were seen as atrocities in his own time also.
This is another of your strawmen and a quite false assertion at that. Columbus was honored in his time and for quite a while after. It has only been in the last couple decades that he has been painted as an evil demon by some activists.

ETA:
I might add that there is nothing wrong with ethnocentrism in the proper context. It would be damned difficult to navigate our daily lives without it because it is the basis for understanding communications with our friends, neighbors, peers, and acquaintances. However the problem for many is that they apply it in inappropriate situations like when in a different country and culture. These people are the ones that gave us the reputation of "Ugly Americans" in many countries of the world.
 
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It is if your reason for a visceral opposition is how you morally judge the person based your personal sense of morality - which comes from your current cultural norms.
Whose norms shall we employ, if not our own, when making decisions about what to do in our culture in the present? :confused:

No one thinks Americans are "ugly" for following our own counsel on what to do or not do as a society; though, some overseas might see Columbus Day itself in a rather negative light, for reasons already discussed.

Also you like others are ignoring the fact that Columbus' actions were seen as atrocities in his own time also.
This is another of your strawmen and a quite false assertion at that. Columbus was honored in his time and for quite a while after. It has only been in the last couple decades that he has been painted as an evil demon by some activists.

You have been presented with direct documentary evidence which contradicts this statement. I am uninterested in having conversations entirely in spite of any facts.
 
Morality is a cultural consensus.

Since WWII through debate, activism, and violence at times the majority of Americans support equal rights for blacks and gays. Pre war anti Semitism was the norm. now it is not.

Cultures change.
 
Morality is a cultural consensus.

Since WWII through debate, activism, and violence at times the majority of Americans support equal rights for blacks and gays. Pre war anti Semitism was the norm. now it is not.

Cultures change.
Yes, they do. Everyone seems to understand this but you. Cultures change, but you are insisting that we should always feel about Columbus that we were told to in 1937. We don't. History has made a neat circle back around to condemning his actions, as they were originally condemned. Perhaps in five generations, we'll have a new genocide to justify, and he will be a hero again. But not today. Why are you ignoring the modern consensus, if you think that momentary consensus should always be worshipped uncritically?
 
Morality is a cultural consensus.

Since WWII through debate, activism, and violence at times the majority of Americans support equal rights for blacks and gays. Pre war anti Semitism was the norm. now it is not.

Cultures change.
Yes, they do. Everyone seems to understand this but you. Cultures change, but you are insisting that we should always feel about Columbus that we were told to in 1937. We don't. History has made a neat circle back around to condemning his actions, as they were originally condemned. Perhaps in five generations, we'll have a new genocide to justify, and he will be a hero again. But not today. Why are you ignoring the modern consensus, if you think that momentary consensus should always be worshipped uncritically?

Fro me it is philosophical. If I beloved I possessed an absolute morality and judged all of history by that morality that would make me god. Which Inam not. I am inherently fallible.

The dnger today is the new progessives presuming to impose a verbal and thought morality enforced by public re idicule. The new thought police.

Certainly Columbus did things today in the west we consider unacceptable, but I have no way to go back and judge him personally. Using yhe word eveil is subjective and biased in the OP.

You sound like a man on a moral mission to seek out and destroy those who do not share your exact views.

Hitler we comfier evil, but he arose in the context of his times. He was emerged in anti Semitism growing up. The Versatile Treaty crippled Germany creating conditions for the rise Hitler.

For decades congress and presidents failed to deal with immigration, creating conditions for an utterly immoral authoritarian like Trump. An utterly repugnant human being to me, but not all.You are guilty of moral gradstanding. You pick out an historical figure and semd obs cessed with demonizing.

There are plenty to choode from.

Mao, Stalin, and a long list of historical figures in history. Ancient Sparta that we popularize as the honorable warrior was a slave based state. The last modern movie on the battle at Thermopolis Pass portrays the Spartans as defenders of freedom and liberty against the Persian onslaught. Given the real Spartan slave based culture that is pretty much bullshit. In our popular culture Spartans were heroic warriors.

If you are unfamiliar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae


Columbus is an easy target to display your moral outrage on. Cheep and risk free. It makes you feel good and personally empowered as a moral authority.

So, why the obsession on Columbus who was actually a minor figure in colonization?

If I assumed a moral high ground and went back through history there are a whole lot of people I would pronounce evil and not up to my moral standard. To what end?
 
Fro me it is philosophical. If I beloved I possessed an absolute morality and judged all of history by that morality that would make me god. Which Inam not. I am inherently fallible.
Clearly. In fact, most don't need to have it explained that those who excuse genocide might be morally fallible. I challenge "philosophical" though, as this implies the application of reason.

The dnger today is the new progessives presuming to impose a verbal and thought morality enforced by public re idicule. The new thought police.
Your thoughts are your own. Public policy is another matter. No one has ever threatened coercion over this issue, so far as I have heard. Have you? In fact, removing national holiday status would do nothing to prevent people from celebrating Columbus day as a private holiday. Indeed, I'm quite certain that "identitarian" or Italian-American groups would respond to such an action by making Columbus Day a much more important holiday than it had been previously. And no one would make any move to stop them. That would be obviously illegal and immoral.

Certainly Columbus did things today in the west we consider unacceptable, but I have no way to go back and judge him personally. Using yhe word eveil is subjective and biased in the OP.
The OP says that Columbus wasn't evil, actually.

You sound like a man on a moral mission to seek out and destroy those who do not share your exact views.
Patently absurd. Politely disagreeing with someone, and backing up your argument with fact, is not the same thing as attacking them, let alone fatally. Grow a pair.

Hitler we comfier evil, but he arose in the context of his times.
You betray your political sympathies by only considering one part of the German population as the "context" of Hitler's life. He himself did not claim to hold the same views as most people who grew up in the same world as he, most especially not those of his eventual victims, who at the start of his life were every bit as much his neighbors as any other German. You should read Mein Kampf sometime; he knew perfectly well that his claims were counter-cultural.

Columbus is an easy target to display your moral outrage on. Cheep and risk free. It makes you feel good and personally empowered as a moral authority.
What "moral outrage" are you even talking about? I haven't said anything about Columbus as a person in this thread. Just that he is guilty of genocide, and of accessory to rape, and that he trafficked in slaves, both of which are incontrovertibly true and based on documentary evidence from many sources including his own letters. That, for me, is a perfectly valid reason not to name a day of the year after the man. I never said he had no good qualities. I'm quite sure he was a very amusing teller of jokes, a deeply pious man who believed passionately in the holiness of his personal cause, and good with the ladies; all sources agree on these virtues. Just as Adolf Hitler was a passionate artist with an uncommon proficiency for analytical reasoning, and in later life deeply devoted to his adoptive political family. These things are true, they just aren't relevant. I wouldn't want a national holiday celebrating Hitler Day either, even though, like Columbus, he shares an ethnic heritage with many of our citizens, was a war hero, and his actions ultimately resulted in great benefit to my nation and a massive expansion of our boundaries and material wealth. There is a huge distance between "hating" someone and worshiping them. Most people who have ever lived, live quite comfortably within that distance. I certainly would not, personally, describe myself as "hating" Cristobal Colon. I never even met the man. His actions, though, we should not give official endorsement to.

So, why the obsession on Columbus who was actually a minor figure in colonization?
Because we're obliged to talk about him once a year, as long as there's a public holiday that comes along, and all our kids are dressing up as him and singing hymns in praise of his voyage. You are socially obligated to either go along with this anti-historical, anti-scientific perspective, or to challenge it. If you want Columbus to retreat to dignified obscurity... join the campaign to nix the holiday. His legacy, whether good or ill, will probably still be around, but very few people will be regularly upset about it. He will join the quiet ranks of the various other explorers, conquerers, physicians, butchers and saints of Europe's New World, largely forgotten outside of history classes but not reviled either. Onate, Fremont, De Vaca. No one vents rage on such men, as there is no reason to.
 
What say you about Mayan civilization? Incan? Or is it just those evil Europeans?

Us humans are what we are. In our brauns chenicaky emotion can and does over ride reason.

What say you about Christians who based on an ancient line written by an unknown author gays are persecuted? Leviticus obviously.

If you look at all of it , it all comes under the heading of 'ye human condition'. To use a Chritian metaphor we are all sinners. Sin does not come from an outside agent it is part of who we are. Evil is a relative term.

Christians who are anti abortion oppose universal health care for kids. When someone comes along proclaiming Columbus is singular evil, I say look around you today. Morality is a thin veneer.
 
I finally watched this video.

I think he dances around the issue of Columbus being a crank, and splits hairs on his treatment of NAs.

My understanding is that Columbus thought most people were wrong about the size of the Earth, that it was smaller, making the idea of sailing east plausible.

Other Spaniards may have need worse than the Italian Columbus is not relevant: there are no monuments to those others.

Lastly he didn't establish that Native People's Day was the anti-Columbus except by assertion.
 
I finally watched this video.

I think he dances around the issue of Columbus being a crank, and splits hairs on his treatment of NAs.

My understanding is that Columbus thought most people were wrong about the size of the Earth, that it was smaller, making the idea of sailing east plausible.
The size of the Earth was pretty well known by the educated back to a couple hundred years BC when Eratosthenes calculated the circumference to be about 27,000 miles. You can criticize them for thinking the Earth was larger than it actually is by a few thousand miles circumference but they were pretty damn close considering the precision of their measurement equipment. The error that the maps that the map makers made that Columbus relied on was an enormous overestimate of the size of Asia and being ignorant of the presence of a couple continents in the way. But then they had had no way to measure the size of Asia nor any information of those continents.
Other Spaniards may have need worse than the Italian Columbus is not relevant: there are no monuments to those others.
There are plenty of statues of the Spanish conquistadores. Pick your most hated (Pizarro, Cortez, etc.) and enter a google image search for their name and the word 'statue' to find them.
Lastly he didn't establish that Native People's Day was the anti-Columbus except by assertion.
There is nothing wrong with establishing a 'Native People's Day' but those currently pushing for it are primarily doing so because of their visceral hatred of Columbus (and some of them to demonize 'white people') so want Columbus Day abolished.
 
What say you about Mayan civilization? Incan? Or is it just those evil Europeans?

Us humans are what we are. In our brauns chenicaky emotion can and does over ride reason.

What say you about Christians who based on an ancient line written by an unknown author gays are persecuted? Leviticus obviously.

If you look at all of it , it all comes under the heading of 'ye human condition'. To use a Chritian metaphor we are all sinners. Sin does not come from an outside agent it is part of who we are. Evil is a relative term.

Christians who are anti abortion oppose universal health care for kids. When someone comes along proclaiming Columbus is singular evil, I say look around you today. Morality is a thin veneer.
I'm critical of bad actions by individuals, reagrdless of their background. I am not one to impute supposed race guilt as you do. If a person is Mayan, that does not make them accountable for the actions of every "Native American" who has ever lived, as you have claimed. I reject that philosophy with every measure of my being.
 
The size of the Earth was pretty well known by the educated back to a couple hundred years BC when Eratosthenes calculated the circumference to be about 27,000 miles. You can criticize them for thinking the Earth was larger than it actually is by a few thousand miles circumference but they were pretty damn close considering the precision of their measurement equipment. The error that the maps that the map makers made that Columbus relied on was an enormous overestimate of the size of Asia and being ignorant of the presence of a couple continents in the way. But then they had had no way to measure the size of Asia nor any information of those continents.

There are plenty of statues of the Spanish conquistadores. Pick your most hated (Pizarro, Cortez, etc.) and enter a google image search for their name and the word 'statue' to find them.
Lastly he didn't establish that Native People's Day was the anti-Columbus except by assertion.
There is nothing wrong with establishing a 'Native People's Day' but those currently pushing for it are primarily doing so because of their visceral hatred of Columbus (and some of them to demonize 'white people') so want Columbus Day abolished.

I've literally never met a Native person with a "visceral hatred" of "white people", not after a decade of activism in this arena. Where the hell is this strawman even coming from?
 
The size of the Earth was pretty well known by the educated back to a couple hundred years BC when Eratosthenes calculated the circumference to be about 27,000 miles. You can criticize them for thinking the Earth was larger than it actually is by a few thousand miles circumference but they were pretty damn close considering the precision of their measurement equipment. The error that the maps that the map makers made that Columbus relied on was an enormous overestimate of the size of Asia and being ignorant of the presence of a couple continents in the way. But then they had had no way to measure the size of Asia nor any information of those continents.

There are plenty of statues of the Spanish conquistadores. Pick your most hated (Pizarro, Cortez, etc.) and enter a google image search for their name and the word 'statue' to find them.
Lastly he didn't establish that Native People's Day was the anti-Columbus except by assertion.
There is nothing wrong with establishing a 'Native People's Day' but those currently pushing for it are primarily doing so because of their visceral hatred of Columbus (and some of them to demonize 'white people') so want Columbus Day abolished.

I've literally never met a Native person with a "visceral hatred" of "white people", not after a decade of activism in this arena. Where the hell is this strawman even coming from?
Where did you get that I was referring to native people? It is those of all groups (including some 'white people) that have bought into the PC bull shit that hate 'white people'. The real irony to me is to see a white male kid screaming curses at some (generally older) white male, "your a fucking white man" and meaning that as an ultimate insult.

I've run into several people who want to abolish Columbus day and replace it with "native people's day" - not one of them were a 'native person'.
 
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I've literally never met a Native person with a "visceral hatred" of "white people", not after a decade of activism in this arena. Where the hell is this strawman even coming from?
Where did you get that I was referring to native people? It is those of all groups (including some 'white people) that have bought into the PC bull shit that hate 'white people'. The real irony to me is to see a white male kid screaming curses at some (generally older) white male, "your a fucking white man" and meaning that as an ultimate insult.

I've run into several people who want to abolish Columbus day and replace it with "native people's day" - not one of them were a 'native person'.

Well, I've never met that imaginary foe either, so...

I appreciate the admission as to what this is actually all about, though. If you want to have idiotic delusions about some fictive race war, that's really your own business. Just keep it out of the history textbooks and we'll be fly.
 
The size of the Earth was pretty well known by the educated back to a couple hundred years BC when Eratosthenes calculated the circumference to be about 27,000 miles. You can criticize them for thinking the Earth was larger than it actually is by a few thousand miles circumference but they were pretty damn close considering the precision of their measurement equipment. The error that the maps that the map makers made that Columbus relied on was an enormous overestimate of the size of Asia and being ignorant of the presence of a couple continents in the way. But then they had had no way to measure the size of Asia nor any information of those continents.

No doubt. However:

From d'Ailly's Imago Mundi Columbus learned of Alfraganus's estimate that a degree of latitude (or a degree of longitude along the equator) spanned 56
2
/
3
miles, but did not realize that this was expressed in the Arabic mile rather than the shorter Roman mile with which he was familiar (1,480 m).[32] He therefore estimated the circumference of the Earth to be about 30,200 km, whereas the correct value is 40,000 km (25,000 mi).[citation needed]

Crank or genius, you decide.


There are plenty of statues of the Spanish conquistadores. Pick your most hated (Pizarro, Cortez, etc.) and enter a google image search for their name and the word 'statue' to find them.

The video didn't use such examples, he compared Columbus favorably to subsequent governors of Hispaniola. But it's a fair question.

Lastly he didn't establish that Native People's Day was the anti-Columbus except by assertion.
There is nothing wrong with establishing a 'Native People's Day' but those currently pushing for it are primarily doing so because of their visceral hatred of Columbus (and some of them to demonize 'white people') so want Columbus Day abolished.

Sweeping assertion. Moves to change Columbus Day have sprung up in many places. I can't believe they're all haters.
 
No doubt. However:
From d'Ailly's Imago Mundi Columbus learned of Alfraganus's estimate that a degree of latitude (or a degree of longitude along the equator) spanned 56
2
/
3
miles, but did not realize that this was expressed in the Arabic mile rather than the shorter Roman mile with which he was familiar (1,480 m).[32] He therefore estimated the circumference of the Earth to be about 30,200 km, whereas the correct value is 40,000 km (25,000 mi).[citation needed]
Crank or genius, you decide.
It isn't a matter of genius. It really comes down to navigation skills and being able to read a map. Columbus rated fairly high on both counts. Maybe you could criticize him for relying on some of the best cartographers of that time.

I don't know where you got that quote from but I don't understand the argument made in it. Any cartographer at the time knew the distance in miles (in whatever length of mile they are using) in one degree of latitude and they could easily measure latitude... This is how Eratosthenes calculated the circumference even sixteen centuries earlier. Now, they had no way to measure longitude (that's the reason they so grossly overestimated the size of Asia) but everything I've read indicates they believed the Earth was spherical. For them to not believe a degree of longitude at the equator was not the same length as a degree of latitude would require them to believe the Earth was shaped like a football (that's the ball used in American football) rather than being spherical.

If you look at maps from that era you will see that they got the distances north to south pretty damn accurately (so knew the size of the Earth), not so much for distances east to west. This is because they had the ability to measure latitude but had to guess at longitude.
There are plenty of statues of the Spanish conquistadores. Pick your most hated (Pizarro, Cortez, etc.) and enter a google image search for their name and the word 'statue' to find them.

The video didn't use such examples, he compared Columbus favorably to subsequent governors of Hispaniola. But it's a fair question.

Lastly he didn't establish that Native People's Day was the anti-Columbus except by assertion.
There is nothing wrong with establishing a 'Native People's Day' but those currently pushing for it are primarily doing so because of their visceral hatred of Columbus (and some of them to demonize 'white people') so want Columbus Day abolished.

Sweeping assertion. Moves to change Columbus Day have sprung up in many places. I can't believe they're all haters.
Anyone desiring to honor native peoples with a special day can certainly do such a thing. However, honoring one group does not require advocating the abolishment of another that is currently being honored. It is the call to abolish Columbus day (not the call to establish 'native people's day) that indicates the hatred of Columbus. Or are you claiming that those who want to establish a native people's day just don't understand that it can be done without abolishing another that is already established?
 
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No doubt. However:
From d'Ailly's Imago Mundi Columbus learned of Alfraganus's estimate that a degree of latitude (or a degree of longitude along the equator) spanned 56
2
/
3
miles, but did not realize that this was expressed in the Arabic mile rather than the shorter Roman mile with which he was familiar (1,480 m).[32] He therefore estimated the circumference of the Earth to be about 30,200 km, whereas the correct value is 40,000 km (25,000 mi).[citation needed]
Addendum:
It just struck me that whoever wrote that snippet you quoted apparently assumed that no one ever repeated (or checked) the fairly simple measurement that Eratosthenes made. That for over sixteen centuries cartographers relied on translations from the one and only original measurement. A silly assumption. I would assume that since the measurement is so important (critical) and so simple to do that countless people that were concerned with accuracy like cartographers had repeated it over the ages.
 
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What say you about Mayan civilization? Incan? Or is it just those evil Europeans?

Us humans are what we are. In our brauns chenicaky emotion can and does over ride reason.

What say you about Christians who based on an ancient line written by an unknown author gays are persecuted? Leviticus obviously.

If you look at all of it , it all comes under the heading of 'ye human condition'. To use a Chritian metaphor we are all sinners. Sin does not come from an outside agent it is part of who we are. Evil is a relative term.

Christians who are anti abortion oppose universal health care for kids. When someone comes along proclaiming Columbus is singular evil, I say look around you today. Morality is a thin veneer.
I'm critical of bad actions by individuals, reagrdless of their background. I am not one to impute supposed race guilt as you do. If a person is Mayan, that does not make them accountable for the actions of every "Native American" who has ever lived, as you have claimed. I reject that philosophy with every measure of my being.

I have always done what I can in situations I have been in when confronted with things like racism. In the year I started as an engineer it was rampant. It was a time that de[ending on where you worked spweaking out against could have consequences for you.

As to history, I do not carry the weight of humanity on my shoulders. It is not how vigorously you posture moarly, it is about how you go about daily life in the midst of today. That is how I look at myself and others.

The likely white supremecists who just burned 3 black churches, where do they fit in your moral reality? The hate speech and utter moral depravity of Trump?
 
Well, just going west he was bound to hit something. People knew the world was round.

His crew were near mutiny when they sighted land. He kept two logs, one correct on position and one to keep the crew happy.
 
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