The 613 Old Testament Commandments

[steve_bank]

The commandments pulled out of the OT. Some are reasonable and understandable, some are genocidal and violent. All concede red historically to be passed to Hebrews from god through Moses. Institutionalized slavery and servitude. Obsession with being deemed unclean by an association requiring purification.

If you are Christian and believe the OT is the word of god here it is. No work on the Sabbath. No usery. Not6e observant Muslims have sharia compliant banks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments



64.Not to attempt to contact the dead — Deut. 18:11
33.To burn a city that has turned to idol worship — Deut. 13:17
504.Purchase a Hebrew slave in accordance wi
th the prescribed laws — Ex. 21:2
534.Not to lend with interest — Lev. 25:37
438.A man who had a running (unnatural urinary) issue must bring an offering (in the Temple) after he goes to the Mikveh — Lev. 15:13-14

 

[DBT]

Inconvenient truths are best ignored, it seems.

 

[ideologyhunter]

And check what a ton of them have the death penalty connected. Including a communal killing of the bride whose hymen is torn before hubby (who could've plowed all the local women) climbs on top of her. And a communal killing for boys who sass their parents. Judeo-Christian heritage, anyone?

 

[Politesse]

They are the laws of an ancient empire. Harsh, but the same is true of the other nations of the Ancient Near East. I agree it would be a disaster to try and apply them all in the present, but then, aside from the late Rachel Held Evans, who actually does that?

 

[ideologyhunter]

No argument there, but, of course, these are supposedly divinely inspired, by a god who is said to be just, loving, and anxious that we forgive our enemies.

 

[Politesse]

No argument there, but, of course, these are supposedly divinely inspired, by a god who is said to be just, loving, and anxious that we forgive our enemies.

One can suppose all one likes... I suppose.

I note that the mouthpiece of the idea that forgiveness of enemies is a virtue was an itinerant and seemingly uneducated Judean philosopher living at least five hundred years after most of the laws the OP is talking about were set to stone. He is dismissive of following said laws strictly, breaking at least four of those 613 rules himself according to the gospel accounts, and encouraging his students to do likewise. He did also say that Torah is eternal and cannot pass away, but it is evident by both his teaching and actions that he did not mean this in the way steve_bank does, the Torah as an inscribed book and letter-for-letter rule of daily conduct.

The Hebrew Scriptures themselves are none too friendly towards those who exercise mercy toward enemies, especially the books of history; Saul, Israel's first monarch, loses his kingship due to a refusal to slaughter innocent children and animals when commanded to, and his successor David is criticized for missing his shot at killing Saul while he was separated from his guards (peeing in a cave?). Mercy is at best a weakness when practiced by humans, and praised but not expected from YHWH. They were terrified of their God, and proud when their enemies were also. This did not change until after the Exile.

 

[Sarpedon]

234 "Not to plant diverse seeds together."

Plenty of food plants grow better with different kinds nearby. This has been known for centuries before being scientifically confirmed.

 

[steve_bank]

They are the laws of an ancient empire. Harsh, but the same is true of the other nations of the Ancient Near East. I agree it would be a disaster to try and apply them all in the present, but then, aside from the late Rachel Held Evans, who actually does that?

It is a stretch to call ancient Israel an empire. Archeological evidence says they were a small player in the region and the biblical images of power and grandeur were embellished.

And yes, the point we make is that it is an ancient and brutal code. Why do Christians insist that it is all inspired by god and to be freely interpreted to fit modern times? Why the singular focus on homosexuals?

From the bible forgiveness appears to be between fellow Jews, not fellow humans. Compassion fpr all is a gentile interpretation of the gospel Jesus.

Jesus seems to reinforce Mosaic Law instead of overturning it.

Back to which Christians are true and how do we know it. Christians constantly read and quote scripture. If you are a Catholic the pope decides. A latter day Noses with a channel to god on morality.

If you are a protestant tasking after Luther it is up to you to commune with god without an intermediary. And today thousands of major and minor groups and individuals with personal interpretations. They all know what god wants.

 

[steve_bank]

The OP is about the flcy of the OT being a constent and absolute moral code.

I'd have to fact check it. A Jew posted on the forum that post destruction of Israel in the 2nd century diaspora Jews held a conference to canonize the Torah and also get rid of a lot of the old practices.

 

[Sarpedon]

Yeah, why would a country who's leadership is in direct contact with the almighty god have a petty and brutal legal code distinguished from other contemporary codes only by its' pettiness?

I keep pointing out how the religious like to argue that their books and practices are holy and inspired when it suits them, but when any criticism comes up, its all 'well that was just the product of its times.'

 

[Politesse]

The OP is about the flcy of the OT being a constent and absolute moral code.

I'd have to fact check it. A Jew posted on the forum that post destruction of Israel in the 2nd century diaspora Jews held a conference to canonize the Torah and also get rid of a lot of the old practices.

I think it is incredibly dangerous and foolish to interpret the Hebrew Scriptures in their totality as a moral guidebook. That's not to say that they don't contain beauty and wisdom, but even the most conservative of Jews would not claim that everything it records were goid or moral events. There is such a thing as learning from the mistakes of the past.

 

[Politesse]

Yeah, why would a country who's leadership is in direct contact with the almighty god have a petty and brutal legal code distinguished from other contemporary codes only by its' pettiness?

I keep pointing out how the religious like to argue that their books and practices are holy and inspired when it suits them, but when any criticism comes up, its all 'well that was just the product of its times.'

I don't think you're paying attention to who you're talking to, those aren't usually the same people.

 

[Sarpedon]

Same company, different lawyer.

 

[steve_bank]

The OP is about the flcy of the OT being a constent and absolute moral code.

I'd have to fact check it. A Jew posted on the forum that post destruction of Israel in the 2nd century diaspora Jews held a conference to canonize the Torah and also get rid of a lot of the old practices.

I think it is incredibly dangerous and foolish to interpret the Hebrew Scriptures in their totality as a moral guidebook. That's not to say that they don't contain beauty and wisdom, but even the most conservative of Jews would not claim that everything it records were goid or moral events. There is such a thing as learning from the mistakes of the past.

That is what Christians do every day. Interpret. Except Catholics who accept papal interpretation.

In the last campaign a Republican primary candidate said his budget would be biblically based, whatever that means. There arte many Christians where I live and several vocal meetings a week. You can not help but hear.

Continual reading, quoting and interpretation of scripture. In the bible 'god says...'. It is not a philosophical discussion.

One of the Christian polemical battle cries today is a return to traditional biblical values. There are congressional prayer mattings where they pray for god's intercession and all the while can do nothing.

 

[Politesse]

The OP is about the flcy of the OT being a constent and absolute moral code.

I'd have to fact check it. A Jew posted on the forum that post destruction of Israel in the 2nd century diaspora Jews held a conference to canonize the Torah and also get rid of a lot of the old practices.

I think it is incredibly dangerous and foolish to interpret the Hebrew Scriptures in their totality as a moral guidebook. That's not to say that they don't contain beauty and wisdom, but even the most conservative of Jews would not claim that everything it records were goid or moral events. There is such a thing as learning from the mistakes of the past.

That is what Christians do every day. Interpret. Except Catholics who accept papal interpretation.

In the last campaign a Republican primary candidate said his budget would be biblically based, whatever that means. There arte many Christians where I live and several vocal meetings a week. You can not help but hear.

Continual reading, quoting and interpretation of scripture. In the bible 'god says...'. It is not a philosophical discussion.

One of the Christian polemical battle cries today is a return to traditional biblical values. There are congressional prayer mattings where they pray for god's intercession and all the while can do nothing.

I think there are a lot of things you hear but ignore.

 

[steve_bank]

That is what Christians do every day. Interpret. Except Catholics who accept papal interpretation.

In the last campaign a Republican primary candidate said his budget would be biblically based, whatever that means. There arte many Christians where I live and several vocal meetings a week. You can not help but hear.

Continual reading, quoting and interpretation of scripture. In the bible 'god says...'. It is not a philosophical discussion.

One of the Christian polemical battle cries today is a return to traditional biblical values. There are congressional prayer mattings where they pray for god's intercession and all the while can do nothing.

I think there are a lot of things you hear but ignore.

And you refuse to see the obvious. Compared to say Buddhism, Judaism, or Islam Chritianity is a hollow shell, and illusion without substance.

I still have no idea how you see your self as Christian and pagan. That is a prime example of a self creating self serving definitions of Christianity. Christianity is really Neo Platonism as you put it.

Understand, you can be a fire or sun worshipper and in general I can respect that. Whatever pleases you. But here we question.

 

[DBT]

The obviously brutal moral standards we see in the bible is not an issue if there is no claim for Divine Inspiration of 'Scripture' - bible morality just being a reflection of how people in that time and place viewed the world and organized their societies, not something coming from a Higher Power, the Creator of the Universe.

 

[Learner]

Inconvenient truths are best ignored, it seems.

I agree ....

The Two Greatest Commandments (ignored) should be what matters to "Christians".

 

[Learner]

The commandments pulled out of the OT. Some are reasonable and understandable, some are genocidal and violent. All concede red historically to be passed to Hebrews from god through Moses. Institutionalized slavery and servitude. Obsession with being deemed unclean by an association requiring purification.

If you are Christian and believe the OT is the word of god here it is. No work on the Sabbath. No usery. Not6e observant Muslims have sharia compliant banks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments



64.Not to attempt to contact the dead — Deut. 18:11
33.To burn a city that has turned to idol worship — Deut. 13:17
504.Purchase a Hebrew slave in accordance wi
th the prescribed laws — Ex. 21:2
534.Not to lend with interest — Lev. 25:37
438.A man who had a running (unnatural urinary) issue must bring an offering (in the Temple) after he goes to the Mikveh — Lev. 15:13-14

Tell that to the Jews ..

Edit: .. for a change!

 

[steve_bank]

The commandments pulled out of the OT. Some are reasonable and understandable, some are genocidal and violent. All concede red historically to be passed to Hebrews from god through Moses. Institutionalized slavery and servitude. Obsession with being deemed unclean by an association requiring purification.

If you are Christian and believe the OT is the word of god here it is. No work on the Sabbath. No usery. Not6e observant Muslims have sharia compliant banks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments



64.Not to attempt to contact the dead — Deut. 18:11
33.To burn a city that has turned to idol worship — Deut. 13:17
504.Purchase a Hebrew slave in accordance wi
th the prescribed laws — Ex. 21:2
534.Not to lend with interest — Lev. 25:37
438.A man who had a running (unnatural urinary) issue must bring an offering (in the Temple) after he goes to the Mikveh — Lev. 15:13-14

Tell that to the Jews ..

Edit: .. for a change!

There are Jews who avoid work on Sabbath and keep kosher. But they are not biblical literalists for the most part. Isreal was set up as a secular state, not a theocracy.

There is also a long history of side teachings and commentary by rabbis. There is no central Jewish authority or pope as it were. Any rabbi can write a commentary or position paper. Same with Islam in general.

The debate here is with Christians. I you want to debate modern Jewish practices start a thread. They range from ultra orthodox and ultra conservative to liberal accepting gays. A spectrum similar to western Christianity. The difference is Jews are not out to convert the world or anyone as far as I can tell. If you want to convert there is a lengthy formal process.

As explained to me interpretation is up to the individual when confronted with a moral issue.