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The Remarkable Progress of Renewable Energy

Those 12 days without coal?

Mostly gas, with nuclear in second place, followed by 'biomass' (mostly wood pellets imported from the USA on oil fired bulk carriers), then 'imports' - almost entirely nuclear power from France.
bilby, I don't know where you got your numbers from, because sources like Live monitoring of the UK electricity National Grid and  Electricity sector in the United Kingdom have very different numbers. UK wind energy is about twice biomass, and approximately equal to nuclear energy. Britain's nuclear reactors are run with constant output -- no attempt to do load following.

As to solar having a low footprint, the sunlight that hits the collectors doesn't get to the plants. It's horrible for the environment in which it's placed (particularly in sensitive desert environments). It's also useless for fallowing fields - fallow fields need to grow nitrogen fixing clover (ideally), or at least ground cover that stops the topsoil drying out and blowing away. That won't grow in the shadow of a solar array.
There are plenty of plants that grow well in shaded areas, including some crop plants.

Wind is less awful, as long as you don't mind killing lots of birds, bats, and insects.
That's less of a problem than what some people seem to believe that it is.
 
According to Trump wind turbines cause cancer.

As to birds single birds and flocks fly into tall buildings. I had an office in abuilding next to a stairwell The stairwell had a window and a potted tree. Periodically I'd hear thunks. Birds ran into the window, fell to the ground and wobbled around as if drunk.
 
bilby, I don't know where you got your numbers from, because sources like Live monitoring of the UK electricity National Grid and  Electricity sector in the United Kingdom have very different numbers. UK wind energy is about twice biomass, and approximately equal to nuclear energy.
The UK's Wind CAPACITY is about twice biomass, and approximately equal to nuclear. Capacity is NOT energy.

For a biomass or nuclear plant, over a week, nameplate capacity probably is very close indeed to energy. Wind typically has a capacity factor of around 30% - A GW of installed wind capacity generates anything from 0 to 1 GW, and averages about 300MW.
Britain's nuclear reactors are run with constant output -- no attempt to do load following.
Indeed. And France's are not - because France uses a much higher proportion of nuclear power, so it makes sense for them to load follow.

Wind and solar don't load follow at all. Nobody is able to control their availability, which makes them far less useful and far less valuable than other sources of electricity, even after allowing for their woeful capacity factors.
As to solar having a low footprint, the sunlight that hits the collectors doesn't get to the plants. It's horrible for the environment in which it's placed (particularly in sensitive desert environments). It's also useless for fallowing fields - fallow fields need to grow nitrogen fixing clover (ideally), or at least ground cover that stops the topsoil drying out and blowing away. That won't grow in the shadow of a solar array.
There are plenty of plants that grow well in shaded areas, including some crop plants.
Really? Name one commonly farmed crop plant that thrives in full shade.
Wind is less awful, as long as you don't mind killing lots of birds, bats, and insects.
That's less of a problem than what some people seem to believe that it is.
Is it?

Do you have some evidence for that that doesn't come from garbage sites like CleanTechnica?
 
My apologies, I misremembered the figure for biomass, which is rather less than I thought.

Here are the numbers. https://mobile.twitter.com/UK_Coal/status/1134464509849063424

Gas plus nuclear were 60% of power generation for the 'coal free fortnight', with another 12% from imports - mostly French nuclear, some French hydro - So call it 70% for gas plus nuclear, of which over half was gas.

Wind contributed 11%, and solar 7%

Of course, these figures haven't been widely published - the news media are pushing the narrative that the coal free status is effectively a win for renewables, but at 18% vs 40%, it's actually a big win for gas companies.

I hope everyone loves fracking!
 
There's a huge disconnect between public perception and actual reality.

When the headlines say 'Renewables', people think 'Wind and solar'; But the reality is that mostly 'renewables' means 'hydro power', which is by far the largest renewable energy source, but which is neither particularly environmentally friendly, nor easy to expand much beyond current levels (particularly in the developed world, where most of the good sites are already in use).

And in Europe, the next biggest 'renewable' is biomass - a mixture of the last remaining old growth forests in Europe, and imported American wood pellets - both of which are horrible from a conservation perspective, and in the case of imports, are far from carbon neutral after being shipped across the Atlantic Ocean in oil-powered vessels.

Should we be thrilled that the UK has gone a whole week without using coal to make electricity for the first time in a century? While some are welcoming it as a sign the UK is going green, the bigger picture is less encouraging.

For one thing, renewables supplied only 23 per cent of electricity during this coal-free week, with 45 per cent coming from natural gas. What’s more, the UK is veering off track when it comes to meeting its long-term targets for cutting greenhouse gas emissions – as is the entire world.

...

The global renewables revolution also seems to be stalling. On Monday, the International Energy Agency (IEA) announced that the world added 180 gigawatts of capacity of solar, wind, hydro and bioenergy in 2018, the same as in 2017. It says we need to add 300 gigawatts a year to have a chance of limiting warming to under 2°C by 2100.
(Source)

Or we could give up on this failed experiment, and build lots of nuclear as quickly as possible.

It's the only carbon free electricity source that has been demonstrated to be able to be implemented fast enough to be effective in fighting climate change. Despite the VAST sums wasted on wind and solar power.

If Germany had invested the money they spent in the last three decades on wind and solar, into nuclear power instead, they would be 100% carbon neutral in electricity generation, and would have a significant surplus to use to displace carbon emissions from transportation and industrial fossil fuel use.

IMG_4167.JPG
 
We Shouldn't Be Surprised Renewables Make Energy Expensive Since That's Always Been The Greens' Goal

Greens viewed energy as the source of humankind’s destruction of the natural world and sought to restrict energy supplies in order to slow and eventually reverse the destruction.

Indeed, the reason environmentalists turned against nuclear energy in the 1960s was that it was cheap and effectively infinite.

In the early 1970s, the Sierra Club’s Executive Director advocated scaring the public about nuclear to increase regulations to make it more expensive. And that’s what his organization, and many others, proceeded to do over the next four decades.

But Greens got the relationship between energy and the environment backward.

As people consume higher levels of energy the overall environmental impact is overwhelmingly positive, not negative. As we consume greater amounts of energy we can live in cities, stop using wood as fuel, and afford to have fewer children.
 
Nuclear has never been relatively cheap. In every situation fixes are tried another blocking point arises. For instance floro compound containment may expand with heat diminishing runaway reactions, but, leaks of the substance is environmentally lethal. Etc, etc, etc. .... like putting water atop a reactor risks boilover and vessel blow up.

The best solution for using nuclear is to put the source millions of miles away from life making the end game of such vessels in about 10 to 15 billion years the only real problem. Except little things like excessive throwout of massive quantities of nuclear material at those life containing bodies not to mention the collateral effects of increased gravity required for these bodies to produce fusion which can capture other bodies and generate orbits for collision with life containing bodies.

Seriously I don't expect nuclear power to cause the end of life on earth. That will be achieved by humans or some other to be life form choosing to eliminate competitors as a rational choice or being short sighted in pursuit of meeting needs to support more life or some other likely, but, unaccounted possibility while in the pursuit of more.
 
Nuclear has never been relatively cheap. In every situation fixes are tried another blocking point arises. For instance floro compound containment may expand with heat diminishing runaway reactions, but, leaks of the substance is environmentally lethal. Etc, etc, etc. .... like putting water atop a reactor risks boilover and vessel blow up.
All of the current BWR and PWR designs in use have negative void coefficients - that is, in the event of coolant boiling, the steam voids reduce the output power of the core, avoiding runaways. There is no 'floro compound' involved in this - I haven't got a clue what you are trying to refer to. Which substance are you worried about being 'environmentally lethal'? Why do you characterize it as such, and why do you imagine that it is likely to escape containment?

Pretty much every industrial process involves materials that you would not want to be spread across the environment. Nuclear reactors are not particularly problematic in this sense, either in terms of the toxicity or potential for environmental harm of any component; Nor in the likelihood that containment will fail. Indeed, unlike EVERY OTHER industrial process in human history, nuclear power is the one industry that doesn't dump some kind of hazardous material into the environment as a matter of routine.
The best solution for using nuclear is to put the source millions of miles away from life making the end game of such vessels in about 10 to 15 billion years the only real problem.
This is pure nonsense. Millions of miles away implies 'in outer space'; and 10 to 15 billion years is an insane amount of time - even the longest lived radioisotopes in fission plants would decay to below background levels far sooner than that, with no intervention of any kind.

You appear to be pulling large and scary numbers out of your arse here - and successfully scaring yourself with utter drivel.
Except little things like excessive throwout of massive quantities of nuclear material at those life containing bodies not to mention the collateral effects of increased gravity required for these bodies to produce fusion which can capture other bodies and generate orbits for collision with life containing bodies.
I have read this a dozen times, and still haven't a clue what you are even trying to say, if anything. Can I have a translation in English please?
Seriously I don't expect nuclear power to cause the end of life on earth.
No shit, Sherlock. If we ran the exclusively worst designed reactors, with the worst trained operators, to generate ALL electricity worldwide, nuclear power would struggle to be as hazardous as our current coal power is. 'End all life on Earth' isn't even on the table. Shit, we probably couldn't end all life on Earth with nuclear WEAPONS, much less with power reactors.

If there was a Chernobyl accident every single week, coal would still be more deadly than nuclear power.
That will be achieved by humans or some other to be life form choosing to eliminate competitors as a rational choice or being short sighted in pursuit of meeting needs to support more life or some other likely, but, unaccounted possibility while in the pursuit of more.
This is totally irrelevant, and seems to be related more to some half remembered irrational terror or nightmare than to anything under discussion in this thread.
 
This is pure nonsense. Millions of miles away implies 'in outer space'; and 10 to 15 billion years is an insane amount of time - even the longest lived radioisotopes in fission plants would decay to below background levels far sooner than that, with no intervention of any kind.

You appear to be pulling large and scary numbers out of your arse here - and successfully scaring yourself with utter drivel.

I have read this a dozen times, and still haven't a clue what you are even trying to say, if anything. Can I have a translation in English please?


I believe Steve is making a back-handed case for solar power. Akin to the slogan I've read elsewhere: "I support nuclear power, just not too close. 150 million kilometers away is about right."

However, the Sun occasionally spews out dangerous solar flares and is so massive a body that it attracts solar system debris which occasionally crosses Earth's orbit, so it's not completely risk-free.
 
This is pure nonsense. Millions of miles away implies 'in outer space'; and 10 to 15 billion years is an insane amount of time - even the longest lived radioisotopes in fission plants would decay to below background levels far sooner than that, with no intervention of any kind.

You appear to be pulling large and scary numbers out of your arse here - and successfully scaring yourself with utter drivel.

I have read this a dozen times, and still haven't a clue what you are even trying to say, if anything. Can I have a translation in English please?


I believe Steve is making a back-handed case for solar power. Akin to the slogan I've read elsewhere: "I support nuclear power, just not too close. 150 million kilometers away is about right."

However, the Sun occasionally spews out dangerous solar flares and is so massive a body that it attracts solar system debris which occasionally crosses Earth's orbit, so it's not completely risk-free.

I was referring to the ignorant idiocy of conservatives protecting fossil fuels with ridiculous but effective arguments with their base. You can bet after Trump said wind turbines cause cancer there are many people repeating and believing it.

NYC is a bird hazard. In fog flocks can and do fly into buildings. The idea threats to birds are a consideration for wind turbines is part of the fossil fuel strategy.
 
This is pure nonsense. Millions of miles away implies 'in outer space'; and 10 to 15 billion years is an insane amount of time - even the longest lived radioisotopes in fission plants would decay to below background levels far sooner than that, with no intervention of any kind.

You appear to be pulling large and scary numbers out of your arse here - and successfully scaring yourself with utter drivel.

I have read this a dozen times, and still haven't a clue what you are even trying to say, if anything. Can I have a translation in English please?


I believe Steve is making a back-handed case for solar power. Akin to the slogan I've read elsewhere: "I support nuclear power, just not too close. 150 million kilometers away is about right."

However, the Sun occasionally spews out dangerous solar flares and is so massive a body that it attracts solar system debris which occasionally crosses Earth's orbit, so it's not completely risk-free.

It also causes a LOT of cancers. Unlike nuclear power plants. (Or for that matter, wind turbines).

Fossil fuel enthusiasts have no choice but to lie and obfuscate, because ultimately their claims are not based in reality.

That's not the case for nuclear power advocates - We have no need to lie, because the facts show that nuclear power is the best option for electricity generation on any reasonable basis. It's safest. It has the lowest emissions. It's reliable. It's dispatchable. It has the lowest environmental impact. It's inexpensive.

Lots of people are currently trying to discredit the last of those claims - both by understating the system-wide costs of their preferred alternatives (eg by ignoring externalities of fossil fuel use; Or by ignoring storage and grid stability issues for intermittent and uncontrolled renewables); And by piling needless cost burdens onto nuclear plants (eg demanding safer waste handling, when nuclear already has the best waste handling of any power source; Or by delaying construction of plants with court cases that should have been brought long before construction started, and then pointing to the cost blow-out as though it were an inherent feature of nuclear power, rather than a feature of irrational and deliberate undermining of the technology, usually by fossil fuel interests).

But it's worth pointing out that the main objection to nuclear power from anti-humanist eco-warriors in the '50s and '60s was that it was too cheap - that abundant cheap electrical power would exacerbate the 'Population Explosion' in the Third World, and doom mankind to a Malthusian catastrophe.

Now that the contraceptive pill, lowered infant mortality, and education for girls have defused the population bomb, suddenly the power source that was "dangerously cheap" is "too expensive to consider". Despite being a sixth of the cost of Wind+Storage; or a tenth of the cost of Solar+Storage.

Do we detect the fingers of the coal, oil, and gas industries in this? Gas companies LOVE wind power.
 

Sounds about as practical, inexpensive, and well thought through as Solar Roadways.

What is it about renewables advocates that makes them uncritically excited by every half-baked idea that some charlatan wants to sell as the 'next big breakthrough'?

This idea is very obviously shit.

Which, I must agree, does show EXACTLY how well the dawn of the second era of renewable energy has been progressing.

Can we stop playing with daffy toys that don't even work at night, and install some nuclear power plants some time before the last glaciers finish melting? Please?
 
- I haven't got a clue what you are trying to refer to. Which substance are you worried about being 'environmentally lethal'? Why do you characterize it as such, and why do you imagine that it is likely to escape containment?

For your entertainment. Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors https://cybercemetery.unt.edu/archi.../www.energyfromthorium.com/pdf/AmSci_LFTR.pdf

As for extreme times and distances I was referring to nuclear power created by fusion, such as by stars.

Not trying to rain on nuclear power, just explaining how dependence on water, heavy or otherwise is a stupid way to go about cooling while noting that all methods of cooling nuclear reactions either include high risk or bad design or high risk such as containment with insufficient failsafe attributes or constructed near large bodies of water and use of products that are health risky. fluro salts are very toxic ...

As for life being short sighted and self centered, well, that's just something on which you and I will have to disagree.
 
 Floating solar - solar panels on rafts.
(links snipped for brevity)
I couldn't resist a lot of links, because of the sight of electrical equipment so close to water. But it does show how well the dawn of the second era of renewable energy has been progressing.
Sounds about as practical, inexpensive, and well thought through as Solar Roadways.
I agree completely that Solar Roadways are a bullshit idea. Solar Roadways caught CHEATING, AND Chinas Solar Road STOLEN! - YouTube -- some promoters of them shoveled some snow off of some test solar-roadway panels, pieces of a test solar roadway in China were stolen, and other pieces were very visibly damaged. Solar Roadway: 10¢ return on $1000 investment! - YouTube -- from how much electricity they produce.

However, solar canopies are much better, and I've found some companies that sell them for parking lots and the like.

Back to floating solar panels themselves, they do seem to work.
 
- I haven't got a clue what you are trying to refer to. Which substance are you worried about being 'environmentally lethal'? Why do you characterize it as such, and why do you imagine that it is likely to escape containment?

For your entertainment. Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors https://cybercemetery.unt.edu/archi.../www.energyfromthorium.com/pdf/AmSci_LFTR.pdf
Molten fluoride is one of a huge number of possible technologies, each with pros and cons; You write as though it's the only alternative to water cooled reactors, but it's assuredly not.

Reactor designs have been tested, and some built, cooled with lead, carbon dioxide, sodium, molten chloride salts, light water, heavy water, and molten fluoride salts. There have probably been others I haven't come across.

Molten salt reactors (chloride, fluoride, or a mixture of both) have a number of advantages, one of which is that the coolant is at or close to atmospheric pressure; and is solid below several hundred degrees celcius - this combination of properties makes their spread into the wider environment in the even of a leak of any kind incredibly unlikely.
As for extreme times and distances I was referring to nuclear power created by fusion, such as by stars.
Well nobody's ever likely to generate electricity from any star other than the sun. So you are just being stupid and childish.
Not trying to rain on nuclear power, just explaining how dependence on water, heavy or otherwise is a stupid way to go about cooling
Stupid in what sense? It's been used to great effect for sixty years, with the best safety record of any industrial process in human history.
while noting that all methods of cooling nuclear reactions either include high risk or bad design or high risk such as containment with insufficient failsafe attributes or constructed near large bodies of water and use of products that are health risky. fluro salts are very toxic ...
Humans have been using FAR more toxic chemicals routinely for millennia. Your argument here is applicable to almost all of industry, since the bronze age.
As for life being short sighted and self centered, well, that's just something on which you and I will have to disagree.

Or not. It's far from clear to me whether we agree or not on pretty much anything. You seem to be hiding your ignorance behind a wall of incomprehensibility in the hope that it will come off as inscrutable wisdom; But when pushed, your ignorance shines through.

Do you imagine that you can have a valuable opinion on a highly technical subject based on poorly remembered scraps of information from popular media? Because you can't.
 
What is the total energy production-consumption of the USA including gasoline per year in kwh versus the total potential for solar power in kwh? My guess is it will not be enough.

Gasoline has to be replaced by something other than fossil based electrify.
 
What is the total energy production-consumption of the USA including gasoline per year in kwh versus the total potential for solar power in kwh? My guess is it will not be enough.

Gasoline has to be replaced by something other than fossil based electrify.

You can make gasoline (octane) from the CO2 in air, Hydrogen electrolysed from water, plus process heat from high temperature/low pressure nuclear reactors, including molten fluoride salt, molten chloride salt, and lead or sodium cooled designs.

The Los Alamos National Laboratory's 'Green Freedom' proposal estimates that using GenIII PWRs to provide heat and electrical power, this could produce gasoline at $3.40 - $4.60 per gallon at the pump - with some minor design changes to the cooling towers such that the cooling water dissolves larger amounts of atmospheric CO2, which can then be extracted from the water simultaneously with the electrolytic extraction of hydrogen.

About half of the cost is the cost of energy, and using a higher temperature GenIV reactor, fueled using cheap spent PWR fuel would allow those costs to be significantly lower - in the case of spent nuclear fuel (SNF) burning reactors, the PWR operators may well pay you to take the SNF off their hands, as it currently costs a fair amount to store (it is often referred to as 'High Level Waste', but this is a misnomer, as it is a valuable fuel resource for fast reactors).

Costs can also be dramatically lower if CO2 is sourced from flue gas at gas or coal fired power plants and industrial facilities, rather than from air; This has the overall effect of getting twice the energy per molecule of CO2 than if the flue gas were released directly to the atmosphere (as they are today) - which is a step in the right direction.

Probably the easiest way to implement such a system would be to start with facilities using flue gas from existing fossil fuel burners, and then transition to using CO2 from air as those facilities themselves make the switch to other energy sources. Such sources should be competitive with fossil sourced gasoline, even without any 'carbon tax' being applied to fossil fuels.

'At the pump' prices can be even more competitive in high-tax nations (eg in Western Europe), where there is plenty of scope for tax breaks to be granted to zero emissions fuel.

A GenIV fast reactor should be able to extract about 36x the energy from SNF as was taken from it by the initial pass through a PWR or BWR; As SNF has been produced for ~60 years in the USA, and provided about 15-20% of the nation's power over that period, there is sufficient SNF available for more than 400 years of operations providing 100% of electrical power to the grid - or about 200 years of supplying both electricity and gasoline to meet the entire demand of the USA. That's bad news if you are a uranium miner - basically, we already mined enough Uranium to last half a millennium, but PWRs only burn about 4% of it. Fast reactors not only burn the other 96%, they also generate (and then burn) more fissile fuel in the process.

The half life of SNF is in the order of tens of thousands of years, which is why it's expensive to store; The half-life of the waste products from a GenIV fast reactor (eg the Elysium Molten Chloride Salt Fast Reactor) should be in the order 80-100 years, as all of the long-lived fissionable actinides are burned up.

Of note in this thread is the rather casual comment in the Green Freedom proposal: "We have limited our studies to nuclear power because its capital costs are lower than wind and solar-electric power, and it has significant environmental advantages over fossil energy sources, which are not carbon-neutral." (my emphasis).
 
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