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New research: Police shootings show no racial pattern

Loren Pechtel

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https://theconversation.com/our-dat...zens-reveals-whos-most-likely-to-shoot-119623

article said:
If fatal shootings of minority civilians are due to bias by white officers, we would expect that when white officers are involved in a fatal shooting, the person fatally shot would be more likely to be black or Hispanic.

This is not what we found. In contrast, when all the officers that fired at a civilian were black, a person was 2.0 times more likely to be black than when all the officers who fired were white. When all the officers that fired at a civilian were Hispanic, a person was 9.0 times more likely to be Hispanic than when all the officers who fired were white.

This finding, however, does not mean that black or Hispanic officers are biased in their shooting decisions. Cities with larger populations of nonwhite civilians also have a higher proportion of nonwhite officers. Once these factors were taken into account, black and Hispanic officers were no longer more likely to shoot black or Hispanic citizens.

Unlike what BLM says, it's not white officers killing blacks.

And another article talking about the same research:

https://phys.org/news/2019-07-white-police-officers-minorities.html

article said:
"Many people ask whether black or white citizens are more likely to be shot and why. We found that crime rates are the driving force behind fatal shootings," Cesario said. "Our data show that the rate of crime by each racial group predicts the likelihood of citizens from that racial group being shot. If you live in a county that has a lot of white people committing crimes, white people are more likely to be shot. If you live in a county that has a lot of black people committing crimes, black people are more likely to be shot. It is the best predictor we have of fatal police shootings."

And the research itself (paywalled, I haven't read it):

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/07/16/1903856116
 
Of course the leftist media will ignore this and still hate cops. The data disagrees with their feelings, so the data gets ignored. Sad world we live in today.
 
https://theconversation.com/our-dat...zens-reveals-whos-most-likely-to-shoot-119623

article said:
If fatal shootings of minority civilians are due to bias by white officers, we would expect that when white officers are involved in a fatal shooting, the person fatally shot would be more likely to be black or Hispanic.

This is not what we found. In contrast, when all the officers that fired at a civilian were black, a person was 2.0 times more likely to be black than when all the officers who fired were white. When all the officers that fired at a civilian were Hispanic, a person was 9.0 times more likely to be Hispanic than when all the officers who fired were white.

This finding, however, does not mean that black or Hispanic officers are biased in their shooting decisions. Cities with larger populations of nonwhite civilians also have a higher proportion of nonwhite officers. Once these factors were taken into account, black and Hispanic officers were no longer more likely to shoot black or Hispanic citizens.

Unlike what BLM says, it's not white officers killing blacks.

And another article talking about the same research:

https://phys.org/news/2019-07-white-police-officers-minorities.html

article said:
"Many people ask whether black or white citizens are more likely to be shot and why. We found that crime rates are the driving force behind fatal shootings," Cesario said. "Our data show that the rate of crime by each racial group predicts the likelihood of citizens from that racial group being shot. If you live in a county that has a lot of white people committing crimes, white people are more likely to be shot. If you live in a county that has a lot of black people committing crimes, black people are more likely to be shot. It is the best predictor we have of fatal police shootings."

And the research itself (paywalled, I haven't read it):

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/07/16/1903856116

How did they measure 'crime rate'? Arrest rates and conviction rates would be expected to be proportional to shooting rates, BOTH in the hypothesis wherein increased propensity to crime as measured by arrest or conviction rates causes an increased rate of shootings; AND in the hypothesis wherein increased police and official racism caused both increased arrests or convictions, and increased shootings.

The assumption that 'crime rate', however measured, doesn't share a causative factor with shooting rates seems to be deeply flawed, but foundational to your conclusion.

In other words, the data presented do not support (nor refute) your conclusion, and police shootings show a racial pattern that happens to also appear in arrest and/or conviction rates.

Unless there's a way of reliably determining the race of offenders in the case of crimes where no suspects are arrested, which seems highly suspect.

Perhaps if we could read the paper, this question could be cleared up one way or the other. But as we cannot, you are wrong to conclude as you do, and it is unwise and needlessly biased to suggest that your inadequately supported conclusion is correct.

But then, this is more about pushing your preferred narrative than it is about determining actual facts, isn't it?

It must be gratifying for you to see how eagerly the simpletons seize upon this pseudo-fact, and poison the well with claims that objections to the factuality of the claim being presented will be entirely emotional in character.

A lie is around the world before the truth gets its boots on.
 
https://theconversation.com/our-dat...zens-reveals-whos-most-likely-to-shoot-119623

article said:
If fatal shootings of minority civilians are due to bias by white officers, we would expect that when white officers are involved in a fatal shooting, the person fatally shot would be more likely to be black or Hispanic.

This is not what we found. In contrast, when all the officers that fired at a civilian were black, a person was 2.0 times more likely to be black than when all the officers who fired were white. When all the officers that fired at a civilian were Hispanic, a person was 9.0 times more likely to be Hispanic than when all the officers who fired were white.

This finding, however, does not mean that black or Hispanic officers are biased in their shooting decisions. Cities with larger populations of nonwhite civilians also have a higher proportion of nonwhite officers. Once these factors were taken into account, black and Hispanic officers were no longer more likely to shoot black or Hispanic citizens.

Unlike what BLM says, it's not white officers killing blacks.
That is not what that quote indicates because it is not adjusting for the relative sizes of the different police categories by race. Assuming their statistics are accurate, if there are 5 or 10 times as many white police officers as black officers, then white officers still kill more black victims than black officers.
 
https://theconversation.com/our-dat...zens-reveals-whos-most-likely-to-shoot-119623

article said:
If fatal shootings of minority civilians are due to bias by white officers, we would expect that when white officers are involved in a fatal shooting, the person fatally shot would be more likely to be black or Hispanic.

This is not what we found. In contrast, when all the officers that fired at a civilian were black, a person was 2.0 times more likely to be black than when all the officers who fired were white. When all the officers that fired at a civilian were Hispanic, a person was 9.0 times more likely to be Hispanic than when all the officers who fired were white.

This finding, however, does not mean that black or Hispanic officers are biased in their shooting decisions. Cities with larger populations of nonwhite civilians also have a higher proportion of nonwhite officers. Once these factors were taken into account, black and Hispanic officers were no longer more likely to shoot black or Hispanic citizens.

Unlike what BLM says, it's not white officers killing blacks.
That is not what that quote indicates because it is not adjusting for the relative sizes of the different police categories by race. Assuming their statistics are accurate, if there are 5 or 10 times as many white police officers as black officers, then white officers still kill more black victims than black officers.

And either way, it doesn't matter. Black cops can be just as racist against black people as white cops.

They watch the same media, participate in the same culture, see the same news, talk to the same people, are exposed to the same racial economic imbalance, and ultimately absorb the racist bendt of the society and occupational culture that they live in. People are not inoculated against racial bias simply by being members of the race they are biased against.

Why would we expect mostly similar people to have radically different dispositions after exposure to the same underlying signals?

I've seen it time and again where black people internalize racist positions against other black people.
 
article said:
"Many people ask whether black or white citizens are more likely to be shot and why. We found that crime rates are the driving force behind fatal shootings," Cesario said. "Our data show that the rate of crime by each racial group predicts the likelihood of citizens from that racial group being shot. If you live in a county that has a lot of white people committing crimes, white people are more likely to be shot. If you live in a county that has a lot of black people committing crimes, black people are more likely to be shot. It is the best predictor we have of fatal police shootings."
They found that crime rates are the driving force for people being shot and killed while not committing any crime or suspected of some minor crime?
 
https://theconversation.com/our-dat...zens-reveals-whos-most-likely-to-shoot-119623



Unlike what BLM says, it's not white officers killing blacks.

And another article talking about the same research:

https://phys.org/news/2019-07-white-police-officers-minorities.html



And the research itself (paywalled, I haven't read it):

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/07/16/1903856116

How did they measure 'crime rate'? Arrest rates and conviction rates would be expected to be proportional to shooting rates, BOTH in the hypothesis wherein increased propensity to crime as measured by arrest or conviction rates causes an increased rate of shootings; AND in the hypothesis wherein increased police and official racism caused both increased arrests or convictions, and increased shootings.

The assumption that 'crime rate', however measured, doesn't share a causative factor with shooting rates seems to be deeply flawed, but foundational to your conclusion.

In other words, the data presented do not support (nor refute) your conclusion, and police shootings show a racial pattern that happens to also appear in arrest and/or conviction rates.

Unless there's a way of reliably determining the race of offenders in the case of crimes where no suspects are arrested, which seems highly suspect.
.

The National Crime Victimization Survey, which is administered twice a year to large national random samples of US residents, collects data from representative samples of people of all racial categories about any and all crimes they have been victimized by, regardless of whether they reported it, or if there were any arrests.
They collect as much detail as possible about the nature of the crime and the victim's report of the suspects (number of suspects, race, gender, etc.)

The results show the same racial disparities in offenders as the official arrest data does, and it holds for victims of all races. IOW, it isn't just white victims claiming the offender was black. Overall, close to 60% of crime is within-race, so a victim is more likely to say their offender was the same race as them than any other single race. However, the differences in these ratios shows that blacks are disproportionately more likely to victimize not only their own race but all other races. Black violent crime victims are 6 times more likely to say their offender was Black than White, and 10 time more likely to be Black than Hispanic. But White victims are only 4 times as likely to say their offender was White than Black, and 5 times more likely White than Hispanic. While Hispanic victims are only twice as likely to say their offender was Hispanic than Black and that Blacks and Whites were equally likely to be the offender. This pattern is the exact opposite of what would be predicted by the total proportion of each group in the population, showing that crime victims within each racial group report a % of black offenders that is far higher than their % of the population. Overall, the data show that blacks are 3 times as likely as whites and twice as likely as Hispanics to be identified as the offender in a violent crime by crime victims. And this pattern holds for both male and female victims and victims of all age groups.

And those relative rates of engaging in violent crime map on very closely to the relative likelihood of being shot by the cops, which is also about 3 times as likely for blacks than whites, and twice as likely for blacks than Hispanics.

Also, because about 60% of violent crime is within racial group, greater rates of crimes committed by blacks predicts greater victimization rates among blacks. That is just what the data shows. Relative to their proportion of the total population, blacks are about 50% more likely than whites to be crime victims overall, and 50% more likely to be violently victimized by a member of their own race.

Finally, according to victims of all races, their offenders were more likely to have a weapon in general and a especially a firearm when the offender was black.

These data (with highly similar patterns in every other year) provide strong independent confirmation of the racial disparities shown in police arrest reports, with actual greater propensity to commit violent crimes (and more likely to use a gun when doing so) among blacks in the US, than among either whites or Hispanics.

These facts contradict the unsupported speculation that official crime rates based on arrests are merely due to racial bias by police, and rather provide independent evidence that those rates largely reflect the greater rates of actual crimes committed by blacks. It is important to note that the objective reality of greater actual crime rates does NOT support any notions that the source of these disparities in committing crimes lies in any biological/genetic/innate racial differences. 100% could plausibly be due to differences in SES combined with differences in cultural/political history of these groups.

But none of that changes the facts relevant to who/why the cops shoot, which are that 1) Cops shoot suspects more likely to be engaged in violent crime and who are encountered in high violent crime areas, 2) different regions (e.g., urban, suburban, rural) differ in racial disparities of crime rates and this strongly predicts variations in who is more likely to be shot, and 3) On the national average, blacks are more likely to engage in violent crime and be in high violent crime areas. All of which combined logically imply that blacks in the US are more likely to be shot by the police, even if the cops respond with zero racial bias in how they respond to the objective facts of a situation. Which of course does not mean that no cops ever respond with deadly force due to racial bias, but that such bias is not evidenced by statistical racial disparities in police shootings b/c those disparities are almost entirely accounted for by disparities in violent crime rates, even when crime rates are determined by victim accounts whether reported to the police or not, and regardless of the victim's own race.
 
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article said:
"Many people ask whether black or white citizens are more likely to be shot and why. We found that crime rates are the driving force behind fatal shootings," Cesario said. "Our data show that the rate of crime by each racial group predicts the likelihood of citizens from that racial group being shot. If you live in a county that has a lot of white people committing crimes, white people are more likely to be shot. If you live in a county that has a lot of black people committing crimes, black people are more likely to be shot. It is the best predictor we have of fatal police shootings."
They found that crime rates are the driving force for people being shot and killed while not committing any crime or suspected of some minor crime?

It seems to me that crime rates are linked to factors such as 'which situations do police instigate' (eg a stop and search, or a traffic violation). If it were the case that police were stopping more black people, or more readily pulling them over for traffic violations, or issuing citations more readily for blacks, then the 'crime rates' would not necessarily really be the crime rates.

To my mind, there is what I believe can fairly be called a wealth of data and evidence of systematic, institutional and individual racism by the police in the US. What the data presented here might show is that the extent of it can be exaggerated.
 
https://theconversation.com/our-dat...zens-reveals-whos-most-likely-to-shoot-119623



Unlike what BLM says, it's not white officers killing blacks.

And another article talking about the same research:

https://phys.org/news/2019-07-white-police-officers-minorities.html



And the research itself (paywalled, I haven't read it):

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/07/16/1903856116

How did they measure 'crime rate'? Arrest rates and conviction rates would be expected to be proportional to shooting rates, BOTH in the hypothesis wherein increased propensity to crime as measured by arrest or conviction rates causes an increased rate of shootings; AND in the hypothesis wherein increased police and official racism caused both increased arrests or convictions, and increased shootings.

The assumption that 'crime rate', however measured, doesn't share a causative factor with shooting rates seems to be deeply flawed, but foundational to your conclusion.

In other words, the data presented do not support (nor refute) your conclusion, and police shootings show a racial pattern that happens to also appear in arrest and/or conviction rates.

Unless there's a way of reliably determining the race of offenders in the case of crimes where no suspects are arrested, which seems highly suspect.
.

The National Crime Victimization Survey, which is administered twice a year to large national random samples of US residents, collects data from representative samples of people of all racial categories about any and all crimes they have been victimized by, regardless of whether they reported it, or if there were any arrests.
They collect as much detail as possible about the nature of the crime and the victim's report of the suspects (number of suspects, race, gender, etc.)

The results show the same racial disparities in offenders as the official arrest data does, and it holds for victims of all races. IOW, it isn't just white victims claiming the offender was black. Overall, close to 60% of crime is within-race, so a victim is more likely to say their offender was the same race as them than any other single race. However, the differences in these ratios shows that blacks are disproportionately more likely to victimize not only their own race but all other races. Black violent crime victims are 6 times more likely to say their offender was Black than White, and 10 time more likely to be Black than Hispanic. But White victims are only 4 times as likely to say their offender was White than Black, and 5 times more likely White than Hispanic. While Hispanic victims are only twice as likely to say their offender was Hispanic than Black and that Blacks and Whites were equally likely to be the offender. This pattern is the exact opposite of what would be predicted by the total proportion of each group in the population, showing that crime victims within each racial group report a % of black offenders that is far higher than their % of the population. Overall, the data show that blacks are 3 times as likely as whites and twice as likely as Hispanics to be identified as the offender in a violent crime by crime victims. And this pattern holds for both male and female victims and victims of all age groups.

And those relative rates of engaging in violent crime map on very closely to the relative likelihood of being shot by the cops, which is also about 3 times as likely for blacks than whites, and twice as likely for blacks than Hispanics.

Also, because about 60% of violent crime is within racial group, greater rates of crimes committed by blacks predicts greater victimization rates among blacks. That is just what the data shows. Relative to their proportion of the total population, blacks are about 50% more likely than whites to be crime victims overall, and 50% more likely to be violently victimized by a member of their own race.

Finally, according to victims of all races, their offenders were more likely to have a weapon in general and a especially a firearm when the offender was black.

These data (with highly similar patterns in every other year) provide strong independent confirmation of the racial disparities shown in police arrest reports, with actual greater propensity to commit violent crimes (and more likely to use a gun when doing so) among blacks in the US, than among either whites or Hispanics.

These facts contradict the unsupported speculation that official crime rates based on arrests are merely due to racial bias by police, and rather provide independent evidence that those rates largely reflect the greater rates of actual crimes committed by blacks. It is important to note that the objective reality of greater actual crime rates does NOT support any notions that the source of these disparities in committing crimes lies in any biological/genetic/innate racial differences. 100% could plausibly be due to differences in SES combined with differences in cultural/political history of these groups.

But none of that changes the facts relevant to who/why the cops shoot, which are that 1) Cops shoot suspects more likely to be engaged in violent crime and who are encountered in high violent crime areas, 2) different regions (e.g., urban, suburban, rural) differ in racial disparities of crime rates and this strongly predicts variations in who is more likely to be shot, and 3) On the national average, blacks are more likely to engage in violent crime and be in high violent crime areas. All of which combined logically imply that blacks in the US are more likely to be shot by the police, even if the cops respond with zero racial bias in how they respond to the objective facts of a situation. Which of course does not mean that no cops ever respond with deadly force due to racial bias, but that such bias is not evidenced by statistical racial disparities in police shootings b/c those disparities are almost entirely accounted for by disparities in violent crime rates, even when crime rates are determined by victim accounts whether reported to the police or not, and regardless of the victim's own race.

Why would we assume that members of the general public, anonymously responding to surveys about crime victimisation, in a context where no actual suspect could be harmed by a false accusation or attribution of blame, will be less likely to exhibit racial bias than the police?

I continue to believe that it is impossible to eliminate bias from data regarding race and crime, and that any and all conclusions from any study of this topic are highly unlikely to be useful in any way.

They most assuredly cannot provide a good basis for claims that racial bias is absent in any interaction between police and citizens. The data just isn't reliable - so it can be made to appear to say whatever the fuck we want.

Racism is endemic. It would be a little surprising if it were not to significantly affect the police. But there's no reliable methodology by which the presence or absence of such an effect, much less its magnitude, can be determined.

All of the data are contaminated by the 'House MD effect' - everybody lies.
 
How did they measure 'crime rate'? Arrest rates and conviction rates would be expected to be proportional to shooting rates, BOTH in the hypothesis wherein increased propensity to crime as measured by arrest or conviction rates causes an increased rate of shootings; AND in the hypothesis wherein increased police and official racism caused both increased arrests or convictions, and increased shootings.

Obviously we have no way to directly measure crime rates by race. Murder has a high enough clearance rate to show that the crime rates and arrest rates are at least similar, though. Since your whole argument is based on the notion that the arrest rates are skewed by racism it falls apart.
 
article said:
"Many people ask whether black or white citizens are more likely to be shot and why. We found that crime rates are the driving force behind fatal shootings," Cesario said. "Our data show that the rate of crime by each racial group predicts the likelihood of citizens from that racial group being shot. If you live in a county that has a lot of white people committing crimes, white people are more likely to be shot. If you live in a county that has a lot of black people committing crimes, black people are more likely to be shot. It is the best predictor we have of fatal police shootings."
They found that crime rates are the driving force for people being shot and killed while not committing any crime or suspected of some minor crime?

The cases where people were shot who didn't commit serious offenses are low enough they couldn't draw conclusions.
 
Why would we assume that members of the general public, anonymously responding to surveys about crime victimisation, in a context where no actual suspect could be harmed by a false accusation or attribution of blame, will be less likely to exhibit racial bias than the police?

I continue to believe that it is impossible to eliminate bias from data regarding race and crime, and that any and all conclusions from any study of this topic are highly unlikely to be useful in any way.

They most assuredly cannot provide a good basis for claims that racial bias is absent in any interaction between police and citizens. The data just isn't reliable - so it can be made to appear to say whatever the fuck we want.

Racism is endemic. It would be a little surprising if it were not to significantly affect the police. But there's no reliable methodology by which the presence or absence of such an effect, much less its magnitude, can be determined.

All of the data are contaminated by the 'House MD effect' - everybody lies.

You are beginning to sound like a tobacco executive the way you're bending over backwards to preserve the notion that it's racism driving it.

There's another damning bit out of England: The cops were accused of racial bias in traffic stops. Oops, cameras show the same bias.
 
They found that crime rates are the driving force for people being shot and killed while not committing any crime or suspected of some minor crime?

The cases where people were shot who didn't commit serious offenses are low enough they couldn't draw conclusions.
Then why the fuck was the study cited?

We aren't complaining about violent criminals being shot by police while acting violently.
 
Why would we assume that members of the general public, anonymously responding to surveys about crime victimisation, in a context where no actual suspect could be harmed by a false accusation or attribution of blame, will be less likely to exhibit racial bias than the police?

I continue to believe that it is impossible to eliminate bias from data regarding race and crime, and that any and all conclusions from any study of this topic are highly unlikely to be useful in any way.

They most assuredly cannot provide a good basis for claims that racial bias is absent in any interaction between police and citizens. The data just isn't reliable - so it can be made to appear to say whatever the fuck we want.

Racism is endemic. It would be a little surprising if it were not to significantly affect the police. But there's no reliable methodology by which the presence or absence of such an effect, much less its magnitude, can be determined.

All of the data are contaminated by the 'House MD effect' - everybody lies.

You are beginning to sound like a tobacco executive the way you're bending over backwards to preserve the notion that it's racism driving it.
Pointing out that the evidence doesn't support your preferred conclusion in no way supports the opposite conclusion.

I don't know whether racism is a factor, (though as we know it is endemic, it would be surprising if it were not).

My point is that YOU DON'T KNOW EITHER.

You might be right - but you are wrong to think that you are certainly right.
There's another damning bit out of England: The cops were accused of racial bias in traffic stops. Oops, cameras show the same bias.

Where's this 'bit'? Right now, it exists only in your mind.

You throw out these cute snippets of anecdotal crap, and seem to think that it supports your credibility; But it undermines it - A lack of actual evidence to support your short tale with its childishly inappropriate 'oops' moment makes me think you don't have any knowledge of the events you describe, other than a half remembered third-hand account, apparently by a smarmy management guru who was trying to appear 'folksy'.

I suggest you either link to a reliable source that gives the details of these traffic stops and subsequent camera data, or skip the anecdote altogether, to preserve what little credibility you have.
 
"There is no relationship between county-level racial bias in police shootings and crime rates (even race-specific crime rates), meaning that the racial bias observed in police shootings in this data set is not explainable as a response to local-level crime rates."

A Multi-Level Bayesian Analysis of Racial Bias in Police Shootings at the County-Level in the United States, 2011–2014
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141854
 
I referred earlier to a 'wealth of data' that suggests systemic racism. For the record, here is quite a good summary:

There’s overwhelming evidence that the criminal-justice system is racist. Here’s the proof.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...acist-heres-the-proof/?utm_term=.470586775b9b

'Proof' is arguably an overstatement. 'Strong evidence' is probably better. I do not think it is easily waved away.

That said, it still seems to me that the extent of the apparent racism can be exaggerated. The point about overall shootings (and other incidents) being at least partly a result of overall differences in crimes rates seems valid, perhaps especially for shootings (if less so for other incidents, eg drug offence arrests).

There is another potentially interesting factor. Given that the police are nowadays interacting much more publicly with citizens (in that interactions are much more likely to be video-recorded, either by bodycams or passer-by phone cameras) the behaviours may often be being consciously moderated. That could be the behaviours of both the police and the suspect (or civilian involved). The former may be less likely to get away with unfair treatment (especially given the furore and attention that tends to follow) and the suspect/civilian may be less likely to make a false claim (knowing they are less likely to get away with it). Either way, use of bodycams, for example, seems to reduce incidents.

And also, one would hope that as time has passed and progress has been made (recent 'Trump effects' notwithstanding) racism by police is much less tolerated within police forces than it once was, and that this is reflected in the standards of training received by police officers.

Finally, I think the biggest underlying problem is poverty, and the large inequalities involved in that, including the huge racial inequalities, many of which have not likely, imo, come about by accident, coincidence, or what we might call the 'natural' unfolding of events. Addressing the poverty (and related disadvantage) issues would likely address many of the crime issues as a consequence.
 
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I'm gonna just note that I feel feelings of apprehension, and worry, specifically around groups of minorities which I do not similarly feel around white people. I can correctly attribute this to the lifetime of experience I have with being exposed to racially biased statistics, media messages, and the visibility of racial disparity in who ends up living "hard" lives.

I would like to note that I do not appreciate these feelings. They are like depression or PTSD feelings: I think they're shit and wish they would just go away. I wish I could excise them from my self.

If I feel these things no matter how much I wish I didn't, I can't imagine that it isn't a problem for others as well, some of which must be police, and at least some of which must either be in denial that they are biased or who are in denial that such bias is unwarranted.

The reality of the bias, the reality of police being equally susceptible to this bias as a function of exposure to the same stimuli which creates it, and the immediate reality of denial or even acceptance of such phenomena indicates, in accordance with the rule of numbers, and the oft-cited reason for shooting someone being a function of personal perception of safety, it is predicted that cops will shoot people as a result of bias.
 
I'm gonna just note that I feel feelings of apprehension, and worry, specifically around groups of minorities which I do not similarly feel around white people. I can correctly attribute this to the lifetime of experience I have with being exposed to racially biased statistics, media messages, and the visibility of racial disparity in who ends up living "hard" lives.

I would like to note that I do not appreciate these feelings. They are like depression or PTSD feelings: I think they're shit and wish they would just go away. I wish I could excise them from my self.

If I feel these things no matter how much I wish I didn't, I can't imagine that it isn't a problem for others as well, some of which must be police, and at least some of which must either be in denial that they are biased or who are in denial that such bias is unwarranted.

The reality of the bias, the reality of police being equally susceptible to this bias as a function of exposure to the same stimuli which creates it, and the immediate reality of denial or even acceptance of such phenomena indicates, in accordance with the rule of numbers, and the oft-cited reason for shooting someone being a function of personal perception of safety, it is predicted that cops will shoot people as a result of bias.

Yeah.

This sort of thing goes on all over the world and probably always has done. It just happens to be in terms of white and black (or white and non-white, or mostly white and mostly non-white or whatever) in certain places, including the USA. Skin colour is a common factor, but there are others (religion here, for example, and in other places). Everybody (all humans) are probably doing it to some extent, and I'd say all are capable of doing it to almost any extent in certain circumstances. In a hypothetical reverse-world USA, black people would take on the role and behaviour of white people, etc. Because humans is humans, and to be biased is to be human too.

One distinction that can be made is when the bias operates on behalf of those who are either in the majority or who (even if in the minority) exercise most of the power and privileges. In this quite common situation, the bias can result in more harmful outcomes (for those towards who is is directed) even if it is in principle the same sort of bias.

I also agree with what I think you imply which is the suggestion that at least some of the bias (or some of the instances of it) are basically rational, warranted and justified, or at least have that component.

For myself, I strive to be psychologically colour blind (though more often here, religion blind) in what I think is an appropriate way, that is to say not in a way which would lead me not to recognise and appreciate that such things do have adverse effects, particularly ones I might not readily notice about an 'outgroup' because I am not in that group. So even going 'colour blind' at a personal level can be tricky, a double-edged sword, or a balancing act.

As for public policy, I think going colour blind is even more tricky, and I am generally not in favour of it if there is a societal or background problem with unfair discrimination. I believe there is a case for public policy not to be colour blind (or the like). Though I'm sure there are exceptions. And in an ideal world, where all or most individuals were, actually, colour blind or where there were not persistent and/or large inequalities due to unfair discrimination, public policy going colour blind (or the equivalent for some other characteristic) could be a better idea, imo. But that is not the real world, not yet anyway. For now, flawed humans is flawed humans, who often need rules.
 
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Pointing out that the evidence doesn't support your preferred conclusion in no way supports the opposite conclusion.

I don't know whether racism is a factor, (though as we know it is endemic, it would be surprising if it were not).

My point is that YOU DON'T KNOW EITHER.

The problem is you are bending over backwards to find a scenario in which data that shows no racism is somehow hiding racism.

There's another damning bit out of England: The cops were accused of racial bias in traffic stops. Oops, cameras show the same bias.

Where's this 'bit'? Right now, it exists only in your mind.

It's been discussed on here before.
 
I referred earlier to a 'wealth of data' that suggests systemic racism. For the record, here is quite a good summary:

There’s overwhelming evidence that the criminal-justice system is racist. Here’s the proof.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...acist-heres-the-proof/?utm_term=.470586775b9b

'Proof' is arguably an overstatement. 'Strong evidence' is probably better. I do not think it is easily waved away.

Not so strong evidence. Consider:

article said:
A 2013 Justice Department study found that black and Latino drivers are more likely to be searched once they have been pulled over. About 2 percent of white motorists were searched, vs. 6 percent of black drivers and 7 percent of Latinos.

Which doesn't consider how many were due to warrants--arrest always means a search. Consider only those cases that weren't due to warrants and you get a different picture. Many more pieces of evidence in that article are the same issue search % after a stop.

article said:
A national study of misdemeanor arrests published this year in the Boston University Law Review found that the “black arrest rate is at least twice as high as the white arrest rate for disorderly conduct, drug possession, simple assault, theft, vagrancy, and vandalism. The black arrest rate for prostitution is almost five times higher than the white arrest rate, and the black arrest rate for gambling is almost ten times higher.”

This is supposed to be evidence? I'm tired of this game where he's assuming disparate result = discrimination.

That said, it still seems to me that the extent of the apparent racism can be exaggerated. The point about overall shootings (and other incidents) being at least partly a result of overall differences in crimes rates seems valid, perhaps especially for shootings (if less so for other incidents, eg drug offence arrests).

If the crime rate explains shootings why shouldn't we figure blacks and Hispanics also commit more drug offenses? Note, also, that there's another factor at work: Street dealing--the realm of the poor--is much easier to bust than dealing at the middle class and above. Street dealing is disproportionately black and Hispanic.
 
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