*Warning: May contain nuts, Christians and/or both

[Keith&Co.]

The false rhetoric that Christians fear death ...and making it an argument is absurd.

How is it false? Christains are very aware that the big appeal of God is when facing death. They constantly brag 'there are no atheists in foxholes,' because they know that humans in extremis will call on God. Or on Mommy. Men in foxholes have been known to call for their mother about 1/3 of the time, rather than God.
But that doesn't get nearly as much press. And I doubt that anyone rationally feels that their mother can travel halfway around the world, cross the battlefield, and kiss their sucking chest wound all better. So I suspect the whole 'foxhole' appeal is just fear, nothing close to rational thought.

But aside from the fact that there ARE atheists in foxholes, Christains keep bragging about how fear drives people to their favorite skybeast.
Many times this has been offered to me when I ask for evidence for God. They tell me when I face death, I'll believe.

Except I have, and I didn't. I have seen water rushing into the sub, sure we were all going to die, and I did not pray.
I was scared, but I did not see an appeal to a mythical being as being worth my time.

If no-one has noticed ... It doesn't match the theology.

The theology includes slavery, Learner. And a death penalty for surly teens. And sending bears to 'tare up' kids who tease a prophet. And putting non-believers to death.
People pick and choose from the theology, so this isn't really a sticking point.

But the Christains constantly flog the fear of death, straight up. I say I'm atheist, and they instantly start talking about how depressing it is, not to have eternal life to look forward to. They keep saying tney can face death only because they know it's not the end.

 

[Learner]

Death is one event we all understand, everything around it , pick or choose, is neither here or there.

The fear-of-death notion woulld be better aimed for some (I say some) atheists hoping for science to get them there. Or the hope of ressurection by some advanced cryonics .

 

[Keith&Co.]

Death is one event we all understand, everything around it , pick or choose, is neither here or there.

No, it's very much here.

I keep asking in various places for a positive reason to believe in the god people are trying to sell me on.
Among the most common offerings is a promise that i'll believe when I'm scared enough of dying.

Another is the counter-attack, about how sad atheism is because at the end, it's the end.

These themes, fear and oblivion, apparently bother the living shit out of those trying to convince me to join up.

I get them a LOT more than specific miracles. There's also a lot of argument from incredulity, but that's more of a creationist thing. Christains who accept evolutionary theory don't seem to bother with complexity as a proof of God.

The fear of death notion woulld be better aimed for some (I say some) atheists hoping for science to get them there. Or ressurection by cryonics sort of way.

Doesn't seem, to me, that most of them are afraid of death as much as they're afraid of life. Living with a terminal illness, living with unstoppable dementia, living with steadily decreasing options....

 

[Learner]

The fear-of-death. Why would Christians be afraid of 'physical death' when they would be with God? Failing that ntion, lets Introduce another false notion alongside FoD. Christians are afraid of llife.

Which one is it ? Our friend Lion would ask.

Doesn't seem, to me, that most of them are afraid of death as much as they're afraid of life. Living with a terminal illness, living with unstoppable dementia, living with steadily decreasing options....

Good point, at least we can see, these atheists believe in ressurections.

 

[skepticalbip]

The false rhetoric that Christians fear death ...and making it an argument is absurd.

How is it false? Christains are very aware that the big appeal of God is when facing death. They constantly brag 'there are no atheists in foxholes,' because they know that humans in extremis will call on God. Or on Mommy. Men in foxholes have been known to call for their mother about 1/3 of the time, rather than God.

... snip ...

Maybe I am an an outlier atheist but even the thought of god or mom never entered my mind when pinned down by incoming fire. My call was for gunship support. I cursed them for not getting there fast enough until they arrived then thanked them for being there.

A Christian who claims that there are no atheists in foxholes needs to be asked if they were ever in a foxhole with an atheist.

 

[Keith&Co.]

The fear-of-death. Why would Christians be afraid of 'physical death' when they would be with God?

That's the whole point, Learner. That's exactly why the Christain fear of Death was brought up in response to 1Eye's claim that it's the atheists living in fear.

As I said, this is the sort of fear that, if one holds it, drives one to superstitions. To making deals with beings one imagines as having the power to stave off death, or circumvent it.

The argument is that you worship God because you fear death, SO THAT you can convince yourself it's nothing to fear.

Failing that ntion, lets Introduce another false notion alongside FoD. Christians are afraid of llife.

Just he Southern Baptists. And it's not fear of life nearly so much as a fear that someone's enjoying life more than they can.

Doesn't seem, to me, that most of them are afraid of death as much as they're afraid of life. Living with a terminal illness, living with unstoppable dementia, living with steadily decreasing options....

Good point, at least we can see, these atheists believe in ressurections.

I dunno.... DO you have the demographics on cryonics? Can you actually show that they're atheists, or mostly atheists? Have you looked into this at all?
I have seen a sweet young thing on another forum saying if she turned out to have a genetic condition that runs in her family, she'd consider cryonics, until they find a cure.. And looks forward to scaring the medical tech if the rapture comes first and she just steps out of the freezer like someone climbing out of their grave...

 

[Keith&Co.]

Maybe I am an an outlier atheist but even the thought of god or mom never entered my mind when pinned down by incoming fire. My call was for gunship support. I cursed them for not getting there fast enough until they arrived then thanked them for being there.

Not that much of an outlier. There's the whole 'atheists in foxholes' site.

militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes

 

[abaddon]

The fear-of-death. Why would Christians be afraid of 'physical death' when they would be with God?

This is the belief in belief again. Nevermind looking at what people do, just refer to the theology instead. The theology will reveal what the truth is - belief matters, reality doesn't.

The theology says Christians need not fear physical death because they'll survive it into the afterlife.

Whereas observation of humans and actuality plainly shows that most humans fear death, and some deal with that (or try to) by buying into superstitions that say they'll survive physical death and enjoy an eternal afterlife. Nevermind that the lived, observed experience of the world indicates that it isn't true. 'We like Belief, it gives us what we want, so heck with referring to the visible world for truth since I do not find what I want there'.

... lets Introduce another false notion alongside FoD. Christians are afraid of llife.

Which one is it ? Our friend Lion would ask

Both. Did you think it has to be one or the other? Why?

If not afraid of life why do Christians desperately grasp so many superstitions that are clearly meant to help them control their fears of what life entails?

 

[skepticalbip]

The fear-of-death. Why would Christians be afraid of 'physical death' when they would be with God? Failing that ntion,

Why, is an interesting question given that many, many Christians do, in fact, fear death. Could it be that their religion has scared the shit out of them? Could they fear going to hell that their religion has convinced them is real? If they accept that the Bible is TRUTH, then they accept that of the billions of Christians that have been, are, and will be, only 144,000 of them will end up in heaven (Revelation 14). That makes the average Christian's chances of going to heaven almost nonexistent since billions and billions of those Christians will end up in hell (according to the Bible).

Even though Christians tend to treat their religion as a smorgasbord where they only pick what they like and skip what they don't like, all the nasty shit in the Bible has to bother them a little in the back of their minds. I do find it interesting that Christians tend to hang out at the desert table while ignoring the nasty entrees.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Christians fear death because, hell. Just not enough to follow the commands of Jesus. But hell terrifies many. The idea that God decides who is the elect and who is not and not for any thing one has done, is a source of fear to many that notice this in the Bible.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

The false rhetoric that Christians fear death and... making it an argument is absurd. If no-one has noticed ... It doesn't match the theology e.g. disciples and Christians lives ending tragically whilst professing their faith .

First off, "disciples and Christians lives ending tragically whilst professing their faith" is not a matter of theology; it's a matter of history or, in the main, pseudo-history. I suppose there may have been some xians who "died for their faith", but the vast majority of "martyr" stories are improbable at best, obviously fabricated at worst, invented from whole cloth by the church to discourage backsliding and to convince the few remaining pagans once xianity became the official, then the only permitted, religion in the Roman Empire. But they never wrote down stories of the many who recanted, made sacrifice to the emperor, then sneaked back in the back door of the church ... or the ones who paid Imperial officials to turn a blind eye. We know they existed because of the Donatist Schism, where a faction in the Carthaginian church rejected priests and bishops who had cooperated with the Roman persecutors, but still remained in church office. The idea of xians, especially early xians as "heroic martyrs" doesn't fit the history.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Christians fear death because, hell. Just not enough to follow the commands of Jesus. But hell terrifies many. The idea that God decides who is the elect and who is not and not for any thing one has done, is a source of fear to many that notice this in the Bible.

Well, if you don't love jesus you're gonna go to hell. Pretty simple. Having faith in hell and faith in jesus seems kinda like a conflict to me.

 

[Learner]

The fear-of-death. Why would Christians be afraid of 'physical death' when they would be with God?

This is the belief in belief again. Nevermind looking at what people do, just refer to the theology instead. The theology will reveal what the truth is - belief matters, reality doesn't.

The theology says Christians need not fear physical death because they'll survive it into the afterlife.

Not quite, it says it is appointed for man to die once (Christians accept they will die physical deaths) but yes to the believer, the scriptures influence "what people do".

Whereas observation of humans and actuality plainly shows that most humans fear death, and some deal with that (or try to) by buying into superstitions that say they'll survive physical death and enjoy an eternal afterlife. Nevermind that the lived, observed experience of the world indicates that it isn't true. 'We like Belief, it gives us what we want, so heck with referring to the visible world for truth since I do not find what I want there'.

Sure many can fear death but when the time comes, many accept it, or overcome that fear, which is more reasnable to understand, unlike those posts that seem to imply that all Christians or only Christians fear death.

... lets Introduce another false notion alongside FoD. Christians are afraid of llife.

Which one is it ? Our friend Lion would ask

Both. Did you think it has to be one or the other? Why?

you should be asking your fellow posters. According to those posts , they think it can only be one-or-the-other, dishonest perhaps by limiting the options, and/or you (plural) are in great error to think that there are only two options that Christians could be, which is false of course.

How about the third option : not being afarid of life and not being afraid of death at the same time ?

If not afraid of life why do Christians desperately grasp so many superstitions that are clearly meant to help them control their fears of what life entails?

This could be true for many but once they trust in their beliefs i.e trust in God then it's a different matter. Overcoming fears!

(lunch time)

 

[Keith&Co.]

you should be asking your fellow posters. According to those posts , they think it can only be one-or-the-other, dishonest perhaps by limiting the options, and/or you (plural) are in great error to think that there are only two options that Christians could be, which is false of course.

Once more, you're reading INTO the posts and then replying to your imagination.

The claim is not that all Christains fear death. Some are just brainwashed growing up and have the faith of their fathers by inertia.
1eye's claim was that atheists live in fear of death. That tells me that HE would be in fear of death were he not convinced of the afterlife. And in my experience, this fear of death leads one to occult practices, beliefs in supernatural powers to protect one from death.
YOU keep saying you and other Christains don't fear death, but you misunderstand the problem. IF a fear of death is what lead you (or y'all) to Xianity, or reinforces your current attraction to the faith, the fact that you now don't have that fear is totally consistent with the idea.

So, as long as we're discussing this idea, and your attempts to refute it just keep failing, there's no reason to explore other options. That's not the same as saying there are ONLY those options.

 

[Learner]

Why, is an interesting question given that many, many Christians do, in fact, fear death. Could it be that their religion has scared the shit out of them? Could they fear going to hell that their religion has convinced them is real?

The reason I mentioned physical death is to distinguish from what is known as the second (ultimate) death i.e. hell etc.. Here you would be right, the fear of hell.

If they accept that the Bible is TRUTH, then they accept that of the billions of Christians that have been, are, and will be, only 144,000 of them will end up in heaven (Revelation 14). That makes the average Christian's chances of going to heaven almost nonexistent since billions and billions of those Christians will end up in hell (according to the Bible).

I know you've mentioned in some posts that " Christians don't read the bible". , but did you know that the 144,000 is about the pure and righteous, simply put they're all virgins !

Even though Christians tend to treat their religion as a smorgasbord where they only pick what they like and skip what they don't like, all the nasty shit in the Bible has to bother them a little in the back of their minds. I do find it interesting that Christians tend to hang out at the desert table while ignoring the nasty entrees.

I won't accuse you of that in your 144,000 line.

(back later quite busy)

 

[southernhybrid]

Our of curiosity, I just read quite a few articles about fear of death. Most said that as we age, we lose all or most of our fear of death. We come to terms with the fact that our existence is just a short term lease. ( I liked that analogy ) I also found an article that explained some reasons for fear of death.

https://www.verywellmind.com/scared-to-death-of-death-1132501

According to the 2017 "Survey of American Fears" conducted by Chapman University, 20.3 percent of Americans are "afraid" or "very afraid" of dying. It's worth noting that this survey includes other responses that involve death which is more specific. For example, murder by a stranger (18.3 percent) and murder by someone you know (11.6 percent) are also included.

So, most people don't have a big fear of death.

Here's a few examples of why people fear death.

Fear of Pain and Suffering

Many people fear that when they meet death, they will experience excruciating pain and suffering. This fear is common in many healthy people, as well as in patients dying of cancer or other terminal illnesses. Unfortunately, many people do not realize that palliative care can help alleviate pain and other distressing symptoms.


Fear of the Unknown

Death remains the ultimate unknown because no one in human history has survived it to tell us what really happens after we take our last breath. It is human nature to want to understand and make sense of the world around us. The reality is that death can never be fully understood by anyone who is living.

Fear of Non-Existence

Many people fear the idea that they will completely cease to exist after death occurs. We might typically associate this fear with atheists or others without personal spiritual or religious beliefs. The truth is that many people of faith also worry that their belief in an afterlife isn't real after all, or that they did not earn eternal life while alive.

Fear of Eternal Punishment

Similar to the fear of non-existence, this belief does not apply only to devout believers of religious or spiritual faith. Many people—regardless of their religious persuasion or lack of spiritual beliefs—fear that they will be punished for what they did, or did not do, while here on earth.

I don't fear death, but I can relate to the fear of suffering prior to death, probably because I've watched many older adult suffer prior to their deaths. This is more common among those who opt for aggressive end of life care, in my experience.

I also wasn't surprised that many religious people do fear death, especially when they are getting closer to it. I've had a few Christian patients who
seemed very fearful of death, even when they had reached advanced ages. I know that my own fundamentalist Christian father shared some of these fears because he told my mother about them. He wasn't a very intellectual person at all, but despite his beliefs, he started to fear that he would be punished for killing Japanese soldiers in WWII. Christians fearing that their beliefs may not be true, once they reach the end of life isn't that unusual.

So, I hope we can stop pretending that atheists fear death and Christians don't. Fear of death varies from person to person. Some people have an irrational fear of death, but most don't. Most of us eventually accept death and any fears that we once had usually diminish with age.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So, I hope we can stop pretending that atheists fear death and Christians don't. Fear

It may be crucial to 1eye's efforts, though. If he cannot offer any actual evidence of God, at least he can try to offer benefits to being a believer (whether or not the object of belief is true). Happiness with one's lot in life is sometimes offered as a recruitment incentive, not-fearing-death, looking forward to meeting lost loved ones...

Syed used to post a lot about that, too. Even if he was 100% sure that Allah was not real, he'd still be a muslim because atheists were all hateful murdering bastards who hated life. And only believers ever made hospitals.

 

[skepticalbip]

Our of curiosity, I just read quite a few articles about fear of death. Most said that as we age, we lose all or most of our fear of death. We come to terms with the fact that our existence is just a short term lease. ( I liked that analogy ) I also found an article that explained some reasons for fear of death.

https://www.verywellmind.com/scared-to-death-of-death-1132501

According to the 2017 "Survey of American Fears" conducted by Chapman University, 20.3 percent of Americans are "afraid" or "very afraid" of dying. It's worth noting that this survey includes other responses that involve death which is more specific. For example, murder by a stranger (18.3 percent) and murder by someone you know (11.6 percent) are also included.

So, most people don't have a big fear of death.

Here's a few examples of why people fear death.

Fear of Pain and Suffering

Many people fear that when they meet death, they will experience excruciating pain and suffering. This fear is common in many healthy people, as well as in patients dying of cancer or other terminal illnesses. Unfortunately, many people do not realize that palliative care can help alleviate pain and other distressing symptoms.


Fear of the Unknown

Death remains the ultimate unknown because no one in human history has survived it to tell us what really happens after we take our last breath. It is human nature to want to understand and make sense of the world around us. The reality is that death can never be fully understood by anyone who is living.

Fear of Non-Existence

Many people fear the idea that they will completely cease to exist after death occurs. We might typically associate this fear with atheists or others without personal spiritual or religious beliefs. The truth is that many people of faith also worry that their belief in an afterlife isn't real after all, or that they did not earn eternal life while alive.

Fear of Eternal Punishment

Similar to the fear of non-existence, this belief does not apply only to devout believers of religious or spiritual faith. Many people—regardless of their religious persuasion or lack of spiritual beliefs—fear that they will be punished for what they did, or did not do, while here on earth.

I don't fear death, but I can relate to the fear of suffering prior to death, probably because I've watched many older adult suffer prior to their deaths. This is more common among those who opt for aggressive end of life care, in my experience.

I also wasn't surprised that many religious people do fear death, especially when they are getting closer to it. I've had a few Christian patients who
seemed very fearful of death, even when they had reached advanced ages. I know that my own fundamentalist Christian father shared some of these fears because he told my mother about them. He wasn't a very intellectual person at all, but despite his beliefs, he started to fear that he would be punished for killing Japanese soldiers in WWII. Christians fearing that their beliefs may not be true, once they reach the end of life isn't that unusual.

So, I hope we can stop pretending that atheists fear death and Christians don't. Fear of death varies from person to person. Some people have an irrational fear of death, but most don't. Most of us eventually accept death and any fears that we once had usually diminish with age.

Well said.

I can't imagine why any atheist would fear death. It would only be a return to the state they were in for billions of years before their birth... non existence, oblivion. Dying may be a concern such as the pain of being gnawed to death by a herd of angry squirrels. So dying may be a concern (depending on the method of dying) but death not at all a problem.

Theists could not only be concerned about being gnawed to death by angry squirrels but, since they believe in hell and that their commission of sins will condemn them to that hell, they could have very severe dread that they may find their application to heaven denied so be condemned to hell. Surely all but an extreme few will be aware that they have told lies, envied others, lusted, maybe even stole a pen from work... all deadly sins. As Jesus supposedly said, the gate to heaven is narrow and the gate to hell wide.

 

[southernhybrid]

As Jesus supposedly said, the gate to heaven is narrow and the gate to hell wide.

I think that's probably why Mark Twain said, "hell for the company, heaven for the climate". I really don't think that believers in an afterlife give a lot of thought as to how boring it would be. The following words from the hymn "Amazing Grace" pretty much sum it up for me.

"When we've been there 10,000 years
Bright shining as the sun
We've no less day to sing god's praise
Then when we first begun"

Not just for the bad grammar, but the thought of how awful a god would be that rewards people by sending them somewhere to praise him for all eternity. Talk about hell........

 

[Keith&Co.]

Not just for the bad grammar, but the thought of how awful a god would be that rewards people by sending them somewhere to praise him for all eternity. Talk about hell........

Well, obviously some of Trump's cabinet are monetizing the experience.