California bans plastic bags

[Loren Pechtel]

And those bags have to be made. To the reusable grocery bag side of the tally you have to add the resource cost of the replacements people purchase.

Certainly, but I'm not particularly concerned about the resource cost to create the bags. I'm more concerned about the fact that standard grocery store bags don't biodegrade, and end up sitting in the middle of the Pacific Ocean in an enormous floating trash-continent that kills fish, birds, and necessary plankton and algae. Unless you have reason to believe that the compostable bags are significantly more expensive and environmentally damaging to produce, then I see it as a net benefit. If they're about the same footprint and cost to produce, but one biodegrades and the other does not, then that seems to be a clear step in the right direction, wouldn't you say?

I have no problem with replacing bags that won't degrade with compostable ones.

I question how long the ordinary bags survive in the environment, though. UV eats most any plastic that's not specifically designed to resist it.

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That 3% stat is meaningless--it's the % turned in to recyclers. It doesn't count the number used for other purposes such as trash bags.

..which would be a "reuse" and not recycled.

But any bag which is reused takes the place of a bag bought for the purpose and thus has a basically zero resource cost.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I wonder if something can be done about plastic bottles.

Yes... Just use your own water bottle and refill it! Don't buy plastic bottles if you can avoid it, and recycle those that you do buy.

My employer went through 7 years ago and put in bottle fillers in our water fountains throughout our buildings. They're large enough to fit a very big bottle under, and the water is distilled and comes out quickly enough that you're not waiting for ages as you would with a standard bubbler. They simultaneously issued every employee a nice corporate-logo-emblazoned BPA-free water bottle... and significantly increased the price of bottled water in our cafeterias. They did something similar with coffee; they issued all of us very nice aluminum travel mugs, and then started charging an extra $1 if you use the paper cups in the cafeteria. The combination of stick and carrot has worked like a charm. Very few people are seen with paper coffee cups or purchased bottled water... and those people often get slightly skewed looks from their coworkers. The shift in culture has been profound.

Yup. This is an area where waste can be cut way down easily.

Even when we are over in China and need bottled water (the tap has both microbial and chemical issues) we buy it in the biggest bottles and use those to refill the little ones one normally carries.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I will now attempt to estimate the resources needed for various kinds of bags. I'll use what I have the biggest clue about, materials, and ignore the details of manufacturing processes.

The Simple Plastic Bag – More than Meets the Eye: Plastic Bag Thickness - What Hell is a Mil? states that common plastic bags have thicknesses between 0.5 and 2 mils -- 1 mil = 1/1000 inch = 25.4 microns. So that's about 12.5 to 50 microns.

Paper thickness varies widely (Paper Thickness Chart | Caliper Tables | Case Paper, Kraft Paper Weights and Thickness Comparison Chart). Kraft paper, the kind often used for paper bags, is around 3 to 9 mils, or 75 to 225 microns.

It's hard to find good numbers on cloth, so I'll use a rough eyeball estimate: 0.5 to 1 mm, or 500 to 1000 microns.

I'll use these more-or-less average values:

• Plastic: 20 microns
• Paper: 100 microns
• Cloth: 1000 microns

Thus, paper takes about 5 times the material as plastic, and cloth 50 times.

I've found some numbers on prices, which may be a good estimate of the difficulty of manufacturing the various sorts of bags. Grocery Bags | Reusable Grocery Bags | Brown Paper Bags. I'm using the lowest price since it's likely a result of buying in bulk, thus giving an economy of scale.

• White T-Shirt Plastic Bags: $0.03
• Kraft Grocery Bags: $0.01
• Reusable Handle Bags: $0.56

Thus, a reusable bag costs as much as 20 plastic bags or 60 paper bags.

So one beats disposable bags if one uses a reusable bag for more than 50 - 60 shopping days.

The actual ratio would be higher as this includes a certain amount of handling cost. And it assumes no resources expended on cleaning them.

 

[arkirk]

I will now attempt to estimate the resources needed for various kinds of bags. I'll use what I have the biggest clue about, materials, and ignore the details of manufacturing processes.

The Simple Plastic Bag – More than Meets the Eye: Plastic Bag Thickness - What Hell is a Mil? states that common plastic bags have thicknesses between 0.5 and 2 mils -- 1 mil = 1/1000 inch = 25.4 microns. So that's about 12.5 to 50 microns.

Paper thickness varies widely (Paper Thickness Chart | Caliper Tables | Case Paper, Kraft Paper Weights and Thickness Comparison Chart). Kraft paper, the kind often used for paper bags, is around 3 to 9 mils, or 75 to 225 microns.

It's hard to find good numbers on cloth, so I'll use a rough eyeball estimate: 0.5 to 1 mm, or 500 to 1000 microns.

I'll use these more-or-less average values:

• Plastic: 20 microns
• Paper: 100 microns
• Cloth: 1000 microns

Thus, paper takes about 5 times the material as plastic, and cloth 50 times.

I've found some numbers on prices, which may be a good estimate of the difficulty of manufacturing the various sorts of bags. Grocery Bags | Reusable Grocery Bags | Brown Paper Bags. I'm using the lowest price since it's likely a result of buying in bulk, thus giving an economy of scale.

• White T-Shirt Plastic Bags: $0.03
• Kraft Grocery Bags: $0.01
• Reusable Handle Bags: $0.56

Thus, a reusable bag costs as much as 20 plastic bags or 60 paper bags.

So one beats disposable bags if one uses a reusable bag for more than 50 - 60 shopping days.

The actual ratio would be higher as this includes a certain amount of handling cost. And it assumes no resources expended on cleaning them.

The handling costs are slightly higher for the plastic bag, not less. What was the last time you washed your wallet? They don't get that dirty unless you are sloppy. Even in the event you got a reusable cloth bag dirty, you probably could find unused space in a laundry load for your bag. This truly is not something that requires artificial inertia applied to it. The banning of these bags is simply a good thing.

 

[Emily Lake]

Certainly, but I'm not particularly concerned about the resource cost to create the bags. I'm more concerned about the fact that standard grocery store bags don't biodegrade, and end up sitting in the middle of the Pacific Ocean in an enormous floating trash-continent that kills fish, birds, and necessary plankton and algae. Unless you have reason to believe that the compostable bags are significantly more expensive and environmentally damaging to produce, then I see it as a net benefit. If they're about the same footprint and cost to produce, but one biodegrades and the other does not, then that seems to be a clear step in the right direction, wouldn't you say?

I have no problem with replacing bags that won't degrade with compostable ones.

I question how long the ordinary bags survive in the environment, though. UV eats most any plastic that's not specifically designed to resist it.

"I question it" is a cop out. It's easy to find information about it, and indeed that information is what has spurred the desire to get rid of them in the first place.

http://business-ethics.com/2010/09/17/4918-plastic-grocery-bags-how-long-until-they-decompose/
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/06/will_my_plastic_bag_still_be_here_in_2507.html


There is more easily available. Next time, kindly do your own googling of simple topics prior to expressing sweeping doubts about established information.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have no problem with replacing bags that won't degrade with compostable ones.

I question how long the ordinary bags survive in the environment, though. UV eats most any plastic that's not specifically designed to resist it.

"I question it" is a cop out. It's easy to find information about it, and indeed that information is what has spurred the desire to get rid of them in the first place.

http://business-ethics.com/2010/09/17/4918-plastic-grocery-bags-how-long-until-they-decompose/
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/06/will_my_plastic_bag_still_be_here_in_2507.html


There is more easily available. Next time, kindly do your own googling of simple topics prior to expressing sweeping doubts about established information.

Plenty of data on how long they take to break down in landfills. I agree it's a very long time.

I was questioning how long the loose ones last, though, when they're out being beat up by the sun.

 

[barbos]

I wonder if something can be done about plastic bottles.

Yes... Just use your own water bottle and refill it! Don't buy plastic bottles if you can avoid it, and recycle those that you do buy.

My employer went through 7 years ago and put in bottle fillers in our water fountains throughout our buildings. They're large enough to fit a very big bottle under, and the water is distilled and comes out quickly enough that you're not waiting for ages as you would with a standard bubbler. They simultaneously issued every employee a nice corporate-logo-emblazoned BPA-free water bottle... and significantly increased the price of bottled water in our cafeterias. They did something similar with coffee; they issued all of us very nice aluminum travel mugs, and then started charging an extra $1 if you use the paper cups in the cafeteria. The combination of stick and carrot has worked like a charm. Very few people are seen with paper coffee cups or purchased bottled water... and those people often get slightly skewed looks from their coworkers. The shift in culture has been profound.

I was talking about soda in plastic bottles.
Bottled water should be banned.

 

[Rhea]

I was questioning how long the loose ones last, though, when they're out being beat up by the sun.

Then google that.

I have never seen a partially degraded plastic bag on the roadside - have you? If they are so readily degraded, you'd think there would be lots in various stages of degradation. Yet, you don't see that. They are always just as good as new. Why do you suppose you see that? Because they don't degrade as fast as you'd like to think. Same with cigarette butts, btw.

Getting rid of these things is a smart move for a million reasons.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Sun Chips came out with a compostable bag. After a year in my compost pile, it hadn't degraded one bit.

Either not a very good compostable bag... or not a very honest depiction. Either way, that's sad.

If I recall correctly, they don't sell chips in a "compostable" bag anymore.

Looks like they stopped years ago. Though they blamed the noise of the bag. It was a loud bag, but that hardly stopped me from hoping that I could compost them instead of just tossing in the trash. Consumer Report seemed to have a similar experience to mine.

 

[Emily Lake]

"I question it" is a cop out. It's easy to find information about it, and indeed that information is what has spurred the desire to get rid of them in the first place.

http://business-ethics.com/2010/09/17/4918-plastic-grocery-bags-how-long-until-they-decompose/
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/06/will_my_plastic_bag_still_be_here_in_2507.html


There is more easily available. Next time, kindly do your own googling of simple topics prior to expressing sweeping doubts about established information.

Plenty of data on how long they take to break down in landfills. I agree it's a very long time.

I was questioning how long the loose ones last, though, when they're out being beat up by the sun.

It is now quite clear that you aren't bothering to read the links or consider the evidence at all. Remember that other thread, talking about pathological altruism? You're currently engaged in its opposite. You're dismissing real concerns and real evidence becaues it doesn't fit your narrative, and you're doing it in a transparent and egregious fashion.

Both of the links I provided specifically reference the time involved in photodegredation of polyethylene bags, because they don't break down in landfills at all. If you had read either of them even briefly, you would have seen that. If you had bothered to do even the most summary research, you would have found that information readily available. I can only conclude that willful ignorance allows you to claim "plausible" doubt on this topic.

It's quite like a young-earther insisting that they "question" claims of the age of the earth, and then refusing to actually learn about or read any of the science behind how we've dated the earth.

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I was talking about soda in plastic bottles.
Bottled water should be banned.

I apologize for the assumption.

I would suggest: Don't drink soda . It's bad for you anyway

 

[fromderinside]

On getting rid of plastic bags. Hey. We need the materials for cell phones, tablets, and laptops. Good for California!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I was questioning how long the loose ones last, though, when they're out being beat up by the sun.

Then google that.

I have never seen a partially degraded plastic bag on the roadside - have you? If they are so readily degraded, you'd think there would be lots in various stages of degradation. Yet, you don't see that. They are always just as good as new. Why do you suppose you see that? Because they don't degrade as fast as you'd like to think. Same with cigarette butts, btw.

Getting rid of these things is a smart move for a million reasons.

My experience with photodegraded plastic is that it generally looks unchanged, it just grows weaker. In time environmental forces tear it apart. A scientist measuring it would see a difference, an observer looking at trash wouldn't.

 

[Emily Lake]

Then google that.

I have never seen a partially degraded plastic bag on the roadside - have you? If they are so readily degraded, you'd think there would be lots in various stages of degradation. Yet, you don't see that. They are always just as good as new. Why do you suppose you see that? Because they don't degrade as fast as you'd like to think. Same with cigarette butts, btw.

Getting rid of these things is a smart move for a million reasons.

My experience with photodegraded plastic is that it generally looks unchanged, it just grows weaker. In time environmental forces tear it apart. A scientist measuring it would see a difference, an observer looking at trash wouldn't.

If you have such experience with photodegraded plastics, then why do you pretend such ignorance on the topic and "doubt" the concerns about the time it takes them to degrade, and questions about whether they actually degrade comepletely or just break down into very small pieces that are still plastic?

 

[dismal]

On getting rid of plastic bags. Hey. We need the materials for cell phones, tablets, and laptops. Good for California!

So, why not ban laptops so we can have plastic bags?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

On getting rid of plastic bags. Hey. We need the materials for cell phones, tablets, and laptops. Good for California!

So, why not ban laptops so we can have plastic bags?

There ARE stupid questions!

 

[arkirk]

My experience with photodegraded plastic is that it generally looks unchanged, it just grows weaker. In time environmental forces tear it apart. A scientist measuring it would see a difference, an observer looking at trash wouldn't.

If you have such experience with photodegraded plastics, then why do you pretend such ignorance on the topic and "doubt" the concerns about the time it takes them to degrade, and questions about whether they actually degrade comepletely or just break down into very small pieces that are still plastic?

The point is that they do not biodegrade...period. They remain chemically either inert or become chemically toxic thus remain an interference to living processes. Some of these new materials in laptops and cell phones, etc. are also problematic considering they are often quite toxic. As we are talking about plastic bags, why not take care of these problem children now. It is within out capability without too much hassle. Arguing to keep them is like arguing to put lead back in gas or start using asbestos cement pipes again. It is truly out of the question. More pollution? What do we want? More unnecessary pollution! I think we should all just do this and quit carping about the "detrimental" effect of not polluting.

 

[fromderinside]

So, why not ban laptops so we can have plastic bags?

There ARE stupid questions!

Really? So you want to prefer about 20% of the world's population do the can have computing over potentially 100% of the world's population who could use plastic bags.

 

[fromderinside]

The point is that they do not biodegrade...period. They remain chemically either inert or become chemically toxic thus remain an interference to living processes.

Believe me. Put them in a stone crusher with stones, gravel, and sand, and the bags will degrade. Bio-degradation isn't necessary. As long as bag particles are small enough to be filtered from biological processes they can be essentially removed from the biosphere.

The real problem is to train people to properly treat plastic bags.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you have such experience with photodegraded plastics, then why do you pretend such ignorance on the topic and "doubt" the concerns about the time it takes them to degrade, and questions about whether they actually degrade comepletely or just break down into very small pieces that are still plastic?

The point is that they do not biodegrade...period. They remain chemically either inert or become chemically toxic thus remain an interference to living processes. Some of these new materials in laptops and cell phones, etc. are also problematic considering they are often quite toxic. As we are talking about plastic bags, why not take care of these problem children now. It is within out capability without too much hassle. Arguing to keep them is like arguing to put lead back in gas or start using asbestos cement pipes again. It is truly out of the question. More pollution? What do we want? More unnecessary pollution! I think we should all just do this and quit carping about the "detrimental" effect of not polluting.

You've never encountered plastic degrading in the sun?

Around here frost is only a small threat to water pipes. Code requires anti-backflow units before the pipe goes to automatic watering devices and these must be higher than the rest of the system. Since the threat is minor the norm around here is to have the pipe stick up out of the ground with the backflow and shutoff valves, then go back down into the ground. It's ordinary PVC pipe, however--the sun will eat it. Likewise, there is a frost threat, it needs insulation. The usual approach is to wrap fiberglass insulation on the pipe and then duct tape it. It doesn't take too many years for the sun to destroy the duct tape, though. It photodegrades and then the wind makes off with the outside layer. If you put a few wraps you'll get a good number of years out of it, though--the fabric core of the duct tape doesn't degrade nearly as much and shields the layer underneath for a while.

 

[thebeave]

The point is that they do not biodegrade...period. They remain chemically either inert or become chemically toxic thus remain an interference to living processes. Some of these new materials in laptops and cell phones, etc. are also problematic considering they are often quite toxic. As we are talking about plastic bags, why not take care of these problem children now. It is within out capability without too much hassle. Arguing to keep them is like arguing to put lead back in gas or start using asbestos cement pipes again. It is truly out of the question. More pollution? What do we want? More unnecessary pollution! I think we should all just do this and quit carping about the "detrimental" effect of not polluting.

You've never encountered plastic degrading in the sun?

Around here frost is only a small threat to water pipes. Code requires anti-backflow units before the pipe goes to automatic watering devices and these must be higher than the rest of the system. Since the threat is minor the norm around here is to have the pipe stick up out of the ground with the backflow and shutoff valves, then go back down into the ground. It's ordinary PVC pipe, however--the sun will eat it. Likewise, there is a frost threat, it needs insulation. The usual approach is to wrap fiberglass insulation on the pipe and then duct tape it. It doesn't take too many years for the sun to destroy the duct tape, though. It photodegrades and then the wind makes off with the outside layer. If you put a few wraps you'll get a good number of years out of it, though--the fabric core of the duct tape doesn't degrade nearly as much and shields the layer underneath for a while.

Yep. Plastic pipe degradation from the sun is a very real phenomena. In the past, there was a big problem with ABS pipe vent stacks cracking after a few years exposed to the sun. These days, the building code requires that exposed ABS pipe be painted. I've also seen my share of PVC irrigation pipe turn brown and brittle after sitting out exposed to the sun after just a few years. Always paint your exposed plastic pipes, people!