Who Agrees Fourth Wave Feminism is Toxic Femininity And Should Be Abolished?

[Patooka]

I am sure you can find ignorant Faux infused dumb asses posting crap on Reddit.

My guess is that's exactly the people he is referring to, except that he called them "undecided voters". On that I call bullshit unless he can prove them so with links.

$20 bucks to charity says that won't happen.

 

[ZiprHead]

I am sure you can find ignorant Faux infused dumb asses posting crap on Reddit.

My guess is that's exactly the people he is referring to, except that he called them "undecided voters". On that I call bullshit unless he can prove them so with links.

$20 bucks to charity says that won't happen.

Not going to bet against that.

Still waiting for those links, Halfie.

 

[laughing dog]

Australia is not the world.

So when feminists in America talk about the pink tax on drycleaning, do you tell them "America is not the world"?

I don’t understand the relevance of your question.

Again, I can't understand this sentence. "ridiculing or dismissing the of women". The what of women?

This is the 1st time you’ve had an intelligent reason for not understanding- the word “views” is missing.

 

[Arctish]

It means show the same zeal and effort about the legal advantages men have as women in the world if you wish to be taken seriously instead of whining misogynist.

Millions of self-described feminists around the world do nothing but advocate for women and women's rights. Would you tell them to also advocate on behalf of men's rights, lest they be taken to be whining misandrists?

They do advocate on behalf of men's rights.

Usually they call it advocating on behalf of human rights. At times they'll point out that the equality they seek benefits men as well as women, but mostly they assume men can figure that part out for themselves.

I think what you're noticing is Feminists advocating for women who have fewer rights to have the same rights and privileges as men, and not noticing the other half of the equation. The goal is the elimination of gender bias and gender based discrimination. IOW:

Women's Rights = Men's Rights

Which can also be written this way:

Men's Rights = Women's Rights

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

It would be wonderful if that's how all Feminists saw things and if that's what they were fighting for. That may have been the case with earlier feminism, and there are no doubt some feminists that's true of today, but sadly that is NOT all Feminists today or even most of them. It is why so few women today want to call themselves feminists. Most who fight for human rights and equality know better, and call themselves humanitarians or egalitarians, etc.

 

[Metaphor]

They do advocate on behalf of men's rights.

Some self-described feminists say they do. Some self-described feminists, both explicitly ("this isn't about men") and implicitly (given the narratives they pursue) clearly do not.

Usually they call it advocating on behalf of human rights.

Many prominent feminists say they advocate for girls and women and they are not shy about it.

At times they'll point out that the equality they seek benefits men as well as women, but mostly they assume men can figure that part out for themselves.

Yes, sometimes they say this, but they also simultaneously say that men will have to give up privilege and they explicitly say men will come out poorer in those situations.

I think what you're noticing is Feminists advocating for women who have fewer rights to have the same rights and privileges as men, and not noticing the other half of the equation. The goal is the elimination of gender bias and gender based discrimination. IOW:

Women's Rights = Men's Rights

Which can also be written this way:

Men's Rights = Women's Rights

Feminists advocate for the end of violence against "women and their children". They are very explicit about this. Now, that's fine, but that is not advocating for men's rights. It simply isn't.

 

[Arctish]

It would be wonderful if that's how all Feminists saw things and if that's what they were fighting for. That may have been the case with earlier feminism, and there are no doubt some feminists that's true if today, but sadly that is NOT all Feminists today or even most of them. It is why so few women today want to call themselves feminists. Most who fight for human rights and equality know better, and call themselves humanitarians or egalitarians, etc.

Egalitarianism is great. So is Humanism. But they're broad based advocacy and might not be as effective in dealing with specific social problems as a more targeted approach.

And as I said before, I believe the reason most feminists today hesitate to call themselves Feminists is because the word itself is flame bait. They prefer to identify as Egalitarians because they get less shit flung at them that way.

 

[Metaphor]

I don’t understand the relevance of your question.

I don't understand the relevance of your statement that prompted it. "Australia is not the world" is something I already knew.

This is the 1st time you’ve had an intelligent reason for not understanding- the word “views” is missing.

I don't dismiss women's views qua women.

 

[Arctish]

Some self-described feminists say they do. Some self-described feminists, both explicitly ("this isn't about men") and implicitly (given the narratives they pursue) clearly do not.

What is the "this" they're talking about? Are they talking about how men treat women in society? Because that most certainly is about men, and I doubt they're saying it isn't.

Many prominent feminists say they advocate for girls and women and they are not shy about it.

Of course they aren't. The whole point of self identifying as a Feminist is to acknowledge you advocate for women and girls. Otherwise, you'd call yourself something else.

At times they'll point out that the equality they seek benefits men as well as women, but mostly they assume men can figure that part out for themselves.

Yes, sometimes they say this, but they also simultaneously say that men will have to give up privilege and they explicitly say men will come out poorer in those situations.

No, they say men have to give up their exclusive privileges because women have the same rights as men and therefore are entitled to the same privileges and bear the same responsibilities. They explicitly say men will lose the unfair advantages they currently enjoy. So yes, the men who think they're better than women will probably feel cheated, but that doesn't mean they're actually being cheated out of something they deserve to have.

I think what you're noticing is Feminists advocating for women who have fewer rights to have the same rights and privileges as men, and not noticing the other half of the equation. The goal is the elimination of gender bias and gender based discrimination. IOW:

Women's Rights = Men's Rights

Which can also be written this way:

Men's Rights = Women's Rights

Feminists advocate for the end of violence against "women and their children". They are very explicit about this. Now, that's fine, but that is not advocating for men's rights. It simply isn't.

"Save the Whales" doesn't mean "F**k the Sea Otters".

"We need to put an end to violence against women and children" doesn't mean "it's okay to beat the crap out of men".

Feminism is a subset of Human Rights advocacy, not something apart from it, and certainly not in opposition to it. When women have the same rights as men, men will have the same rights as women.

I suspect that bit about Feminists advocating for the end of violence against women and their children is in reference to proposals to deal with domestic violence. I don't know what Australia's proposals look like but the Violence Against Women Act in the US specifically stated that it was meant to address all forms of domestic violence and assist all victims of it, including male ones. It's not an example of gender bias.

 

[ruby sparks]

...but sadly that is NOT all Feminists today or even most of them.

The last time you came out with something like that (last time it was that only a small minority of feminists are egalitarian) I repeatedly asked you to justify it, and you repeatedly ignored the question. So I'm going to ask you again. How do you actually know it's not most feminists?

Whatever way you slice it, there are literally millions and millions of women, even in the 'west' alone, who self-identify as feminist. Where's your data?

Because I'd hate to think you were just making stuff up. Or worse, indulging in the sort of sweeping generalisations that you claim to object to, when it suits.

 

[Metaphor]

What is the "this" they're talking about?

It depends. When they're talking about rape, it is almost always in the context of men raping women. The "this" part is about being a rape victim.

Are they talking about how men treat women in society? Because that most certainly is about men, and I doubt they're saying it isn't.

Oh absolutely, when they can blame men, they do. But some feminists blame things that don't exist, like the patriarchy.

Of course they aren't. The whole point of self identifying as a Feminist is to acknowledge you advocate for women and girls. Otherwise, you'd call yourself something else.

You don't need to tell me that.

No, they say men have to give up their exclusive privileges because women have the same rights as men and therefore are entitled to the same privileges and bear the same responsibilities. They explicitly say men will lose the unfair advantages they currently enjoy. So yes, the men who think they're better than women will probably feel cheated, but that doesn't mean they're actually being cheated out of something they deserve to have. [ /QUOTE]

Men don't have any exclusive privileges, but in any case, feminists can and do advocate beyond "privilege". For example, some feminists advocate for men to step down from positions of power or rank to make way for women. There's no debate about whether the position was hard fought for or came at anybody's expense or because of privilege.

Feminists advocate for the end of violence against "women and their children". They are very explicit about this. Now, that's fine, but that is not advocating for men's rights. It simply isn't.

"Save the Whales" doesn't mean "F**k the Sea Otters".

"We need to put an end to violence against women and children" doesn't mean "it's okay to beat the crap out of men".

I didn't say it did mean that. In fact, I have quite explicitly and repeatedly said it's okay for feminists to advocate and be concerned with only women, just as it's my right to advocate for men.

I suspect that bit about Feminists advocating for the end of violence against women and their children is in reference to proposals to deal with domestic violence. I don't know what Australia's proposals look like but the Violence Against Women Act in the US specifically stated that it was meant to address all forms of domestic violence and assist all victims of it, including male ones. It's not an example of gender bias.

I am not talking about VAWA. I am talking about some feminists advocating for women's rights and women's rights alone.

 

[Toni]

I am not talking about VAWA. I am talking about some feminists advocating for women's rights and women's rights alone.

So, you're talking about mythological feminists. Got it.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

And as I said before, I believe the reason most feminists today hesitate to call themselves Feminists is because the word itself is flame bait. They prefer to identify as Egalitarians because they get less shit flung at them that way.

That's true, and partly because of misogynists who don't want women to have equal rights, but also in large part because of other self described "Feminists" who are toxic, man hating, and do not seek equality. That most women, and most men, support equal rights for women but refuse to identify as Feminists shows just how much stigma both of the above have managed to attach to the word.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

"Save the Whales" doesn't mean "F**k the Sea Otters".

True. But "fuck the sea otters" does mean "fuck the sea otters". "Why can't we hate sea otters?"

"We need to put an end to violence against women and children" doesn't mean "it's okay to beat the crap out of men".

It kind of does if you enact anti-domestic violence initiatives or build safety shelters and exclude male victims from them.

Feminism is a subset of Human Rights advocacy, not something apart from it, and certainly not in opposition to it.

Some who call themselves Feminists are this. Others who claim that label may think they are this or claim to be this, but are actually quite the opposite.

When women have the same rights as men, men will have the same rights as women.

Yes. I am with you in the push for equal rights.

 

[laughing dog]

I don't understand the relevance of your statement that prompted it. "Australia is not the world" is something I already knew.

There is little evidence of that. Otherwise you would not have responded to : It means show the same zeal and effort about the legal advantages men have as women in the world if you wish to be taken seriously instead of whining misogynist.” with some babbling about a pink tax in Australia.

I don't dismiss women's views qua women.

Sure, Jan.

 

[Toni]

And as I said before, I believe the reason most feminists today hesitate to call themselves Feminists is because the word itself is flame bait. They prefer to identify as Egalitarians because they get less shit flung at them that way.

That's true, and partly because of misogynists who don't want women to have equal rights, but also in large part because of other self described "Feminists" who are toxic, man hating, and do not seek equality. That most women, and most men, support equal rights for women but refuse to identify as Feminists shows just how much stigma both of the above have managed to attach to the word.

No it’s because of those who describe feminists as toxic, man haters who don’t want equality.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

And as I said before, I believe the reason most feminists today hesitate to call themselves Feminists is because the word itself is flame bait. They prefer to identify as Egalitarians because they get less shit flung at them that way.

That's true, and partly because of misogynists who don't want women to have equal rights, but also in large part because of other self described "Feminists" who are toxic, man hating, and do not seek equality. That most women, and most men, support equal rights for women but refuse to identify as Feminists shows just how much stigma both of the above have managed to attach to the word.

No it’s because of those who describe feminists as toxic, man haters who don’t want equality.

Or maybe its because they do want equality, and recognize toxic man hating feminists as not that? Its sad that egalitarian oriented feminists have had their movement hijacked to the point that most women (and men) won't take on the label. This works directly against the kind of feminism that Arctish advocates for above. The kind of "feminism" (egalitarianism / humanism) Arctish describes above is something I think everyone (or almost everyone) here can get firmly behind.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

And as I said before, I believe the reason most feminists today hesitate to call themselves Feminists is because the word itself is flame bait. They prefer to identify as Egalitarians because they get less shit flung at them that way.

That's true, and partly because of misogynists who don't want women to have equal rights, but also in large part because of other self described "Feminists" who are toxic, man hating, and do not seek equality. That most women, and most men, support equal rights for women but refuse to identify as Feminists shows just how much stigma both of the above have managed to attach to the word.

Misogynists search out what they hold to be "toxic feminists" and hold this up to be what feminism is all about? And all those misogynists out there and many confused females (often evangelical right wingers) adopt the same attitude? And many people cannot see through this crap for what it is? This makes me so sad to see how little common sense there is in this world.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

And as I said before, I believe the reason most feminists today hesitate to call themselves Feminists is because the word itself is flame bait. They prefer to identify as Egalitarians because they get less shit flung at them that way.

That's true, and partly because of misogynists who don't want women to have equal rights, but also in large part because of other self described "Feminists" who are toxic, man hating, and do not seek equality. That most women, and most men, support equal rights for women but refuse to identify as Feminists shows just how much stigma both of the above have managed to attach to the word.

Misogynists search out what they hold to be "toxic feminists" and hold this up to be what feminism is all about? And all those misogynists out there and many confused females (often evangelical right wingers) adopt the same attitude? And many people cannot see through this crap for what it is? This makes me so sad to see how little common sense there is in this world.

"Feminism" is a word, and like any word it can be defined and redefined by anyone, and take on a variety of meanings attached to a variety of agendas. Is Feminism the mere demand that women be treated with respect and equal rights as men, or is it the toxic buzzfeed type bullshit? Is it Christina Hoff Sommers or Chanty Binx? Is it Feminism to demand "safe" railway cars exclusively for women and children, leaving men to fend off attackers themselves? Is it the right to vote, the right to work in any job, and the right not to be sexually abused, or is it whining about "mansplaining" and presuming men guilty of sexual impropriety by mere accusation? Are the smears against the Joker movie Feminism? Is Ayan Hirsi Ali a feminist for standing up against a repressive culture and regime she fled as a child that mutilated her genitals and wanted to force her to marry some guy, or is Linda Sarsour a feminist when she mocked Ali for this and then was made a founder and celebrated leader of the women's march? Is "Why can't we hate men" a feminist sentiment? Is the gender sentencing gap Feminism itself or something Feminists oppose?

It gets rather complicated.

 

[Toni]

No it’s because of those who describe feminists as toxic, man haters who don’t want equality.

Or maybe its because they do want equality, and recognize toxic man hating feminists as not that? Its sad that egalitarian oriented feminists have had their movement hijacked to the point that most women (and men) won't take on the label. This works directly against the kind of feminism that Arctish advocates for above. The kind of "feminism" (egalitarianism / humanism) Arctish describes above is something I think everyone (or almost everyone) here can get firmly behind.

Or maybe they’ve just heard too many people describing feminists as toxic. Most people want other people to like them.