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Free Market supporters opposing Patent protection

Rhea

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Free Market supporters opposing Patent protection
Are there any? There should be zillions, right? or at least all of them?

I mean, if Big Government™ and Regulation™ are bad, how can patents be good? Isn't competition better? Free Market without artificial government intervention and all that?
 
Do you have an example of someone claiming to be a pure free marketer who supports patents?
 
Free Market supporters opposing Patent protection
Are there any? There should be zillions, right? or at least all of them?

I mean, if Big Government™ and Regulation™ are bad, how can patents be good? Isn't competition better? Free Market without artificial government intervention and all that?

I have seen this argument both ways by supporters of the free market. It's a divided issue.
 
Free Market supporters opposing Patent protection
Are there any? There should be zillions, right? or at least all of them?

I mean, if Big Government™ and Regulation™ are bad, how can patents be good? Isn't competition better? Free Market without artificial government intervention and all that?

I have seen this argument both ways by supporters of the free market. It's a divided issue.

People who generally support freer markets may accept the wisdom of patents, but it would be as an exception.
 
The problem is that patents have gotten out of hand, there are a gazillion patents over basically obvious things.

I have no problem with patents on things that legitimately involve substantial innovation. However, the few good ones are buried in a huge pile of junk. Take, for example, one that I saw just how weak it was many, many years ago. There are two basic techniques to implement a blinking cursor, both were patented (the patents have run out by now.) They're both pretty obvious but in general you will encounter them before you have the skill to derive them. However, when I was in school everything was text based. I wrote no graphics on the PC in school, but then my first job involved graphics. I ended up coming up against the blinking cursor problem and solving it with a few hours of work. We didn't have Google back then, it was entirely my own work. Nothing that an entry-level person can solve in a few hours work warrants a patent!
 
Do you have an example of someone claiming to be a pure free marketer who supports patents?

Nope. It's why I asked.
I was thinking of people who were very strongly for reduced regulations and spend millions lobbying for government to get out of their way - except those laws regulating patents. People such as those in charge at Monsanto and Pfizer.

The general anti-government regulation loudmouths in both public and private sector. The Mitt Romney's of the world, the David Kochs. being pro-corporatist means supporting thing that protect corporate profits - like patents.
 
The problem is that patents have gotten out of hand, there are a gazillion patents over basically obvious things.

Really? A gazillion? Evidence?

I have no problem with patents on things that legitimately involve substantial innovation.

See 35 USC 101 below.

However, the few good ones are buried in a huge pile of junk.

Evidence to support this?

Take, for example, one that I saw just how weak it was many, many years ago. There are two basic techniques to implement a blinking cursor, both were patented (the patents have run out by now.) They're both pretty obvious but in general you will encounter them before you have the skill to derive them. However, when I was in school everything was text based. I wrote no graphics on the PC in school, but then my first job involved graphics. I ended up coming up against the blinking cursor problem and solving it with a few hours of work. We didn't have Google back then, it was entirely my own work. Nothing that an entry-level person can solve in a few hours work warrants a patent!

Your evidence is an anecdote about one or two patent(s) issued in the 60s, IIRC, that have expired? That's some strong stuff there, Loren!

BTW, read 35 USC 101. It defines what "warrants a patent":

"Whoever invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, may obtain a patent therefor, subject to the conditions and requirements of this title."

It doesn't exclude things that "an entry-level person can solve in a few hours". In fact, if an entry-level person can come up with a new and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, in a few hours, they could and should seek to patent it. More power to 'em.

BTW, "obviousness" (one of the "conditions and requirements") is covered in 35 USC 103 - and a rejection on obviousness under 35 USC 103 rightly requires substantially more than just an observation of "Doh! Even I coulda thought of that!" You know, such as evidence and reasoned argument that supports the rejection under 103.
 
Really? A gazillion? Evidence?

I have no problem with patents on things that legitimately involve substantial innovation.

See 35 USC 101 below.

However, the few good ones are buried in a huge pile of junk.

Evidence to support this?

Take, for example, one that I saw just how weak it was many, many years ago. There are two basic techniques to implement a blinking cursor, both were patented (the patents have run out by now.) They're both pretty obvious but in general you will encounter them before you have the skill to derive them. However, when I was in school everything was text based. I wrote no graphics on the PC in school, but then my first job involved graphics. I ended up coming up against the blinking cursor problem and solving it with a few hours of work. We didn't have Google back then, it was entirely my own work. Nothing that an entry-level person can solve in a few hours work warrants a patent!

Your evidence is an anecdote about one or two patent(s) issued in the 60s, IIRC, that have expired? That's some strong stuff there, Loren!

BTW, read 35 USC 101. It defines what "warrants a patent":

"Whoever invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, may obtain a patent therefor, subject to the conditions and requirements of this title."

It doesn't exclude things that "an entry-level person can solve in a few hours". In fact, if an entry-level person can come up with a new and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, in a few hours, they could and should seek to patent it. More power to 'em.

BTW, "obviousness" (one of the "conditions and requirements") is covered in 35 USC 103 - and a rejection on obviousness under 35 USC 103 rightly requires substantially more than just an observation of "Doh! Even I coulda thought of that!" You know, such as evidence and reasoned argument that supports the rejection under 103.

The problem is that there are so many patents that it has become unreasonable to really challenge a big corporations who hold many of them, because the legal costs to argue your case for ten thousand patents you may or may not be infringing would be too high.
 
Do you have an example of someone claiming to be a pure free marketer who supports patents?

Ayn Rand supported copyrights and patents. From Capitalism: The Unknown Idea:
Patents and copyrights are the legal implementation of the base of all property rights: a man's right to the product of his mind.

Lysander Spooner supported copyrights and patents. From THE LAW OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY:
“A man's ideas are his property. They are his for enjoyment, and his for use. Other men do not own his ideas. He has a right, as against all other men, to absolute dominion over his ideas....So absolute is the author’s right of dominion over his ideas that he may forbid their being communicated even by human voice if he so pleases.”

Murray Rothbard and Herbert Spencer were both free-market supporters who also supported patents.

But this is one of the several concepts that libertarians do not agree on.
 
Ayn Rand supported copyrights and patents. From Capitalism: The Unknown Idea:
Patents and copyrights are the legal implementation of the base of all property rights: a man's right to the product of his mind.

Lysander Spooner supported copyrights and patents. From THE LAW OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY:
“A man's ideas are his property. They are his for enjoyment, and his for use. Other men do not own his ideas. He has a right, as against all other men, to absolute dominion over his ideas....So absolute is the author’s right of dominion over his ideas that he may forbid their being communicated even by human voice if he so pleases.”

Murray Rothbard and Herbert Spencer were both free-market supporters who also supported patents.

But this is one of the several concepts that libertarians do not agree on.

The right to 'dominion over [one's own] ideas' or 'a man's right to the product of his mind' doesn't necessarily imply support for patents though.

If I come up with a brilliant new way to do something, and start to sell my invention, then a person from the other side of the country, of whom I have never heard, can come to me and say 'Hey, I had that idea first, and I have a patent, so you may not take advantage of the idea - it belongs to me alone!'

Now I would say that this infringes on my right to dominion over my idea. Just because someone else had it before me doesn't mean it isn't the product of my mind - he would have to show that I stole it from him in order to have any right to stop me from using it.

Further, I could argue that by allowing me (and others) to see his idea, he has willingly shared it with me, and it is no longer his sole property. If he wants to keep it to himself, it is his duty to guard it against discovery.

The patent system was originally intended to discourage secrecy, so that good ideas would be shared with the wider community for the benefit of all; in return for giving up secrecy, inventors were granted a right to sole use of the idea for a specified length of time after publishing.

I am unconvinced that this is the optimum way to approach the problem of incentivising the publication of ideas - particularly where the exclusivity period is very long - patents should not outlive their inventors, and I wonder if granting exclusive rights to use (or licence) an idea is the best incentive for publishing; the benefit of getting the idea into the public domain needs to be balanced against the cost of having a monopoly on the provision of goods based upon that idea.

Real property is pretty easy to protect; If I have a sheep, and you take it, then I no longer have a sheep, you are a thief, and I need to be protected from you by the law.

Intellectual property is a problem; If I have an idea, and you have the same idea, then I still have the idea, you may have got yours by copying mine, or by inventing it yourself, and it is very unclear whether I need protection from you; you need protection from me, or no one needs protection from anyone.
 
People who generally support freer markets may accept the wisdom of patents, but it would be as an exception.

I guess that I'm an exception!

I meant an exception to the general belief in free markets.

I would be surprised if anyone would argue that government enforced patents are consistent with free market principles.
 
Murray Rothbard and Herbert Spencer were both free-market supporters who also supported patents.

But this is one of the several concepts that libertarians do not agree on.

Maybe they generally supported free markets, but if they were supporting patents they were supporting a government intervention.

The OP attempts to create a dichotomy that does not exist. Belief in free markets is not a point. It's a position on a continuum.
 
This thread wasn't about libertarians.

It was about imaginary free market purists.
 
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