Why must theists prove god exists?

[ruby sparks]

The dogma of eternal torture is ridiculous on the face of it, being in direct contradiction of any benevolent omni-being. Even most humans are better than that - the hells they construct are at least nominally "corrections facilities", not torture chambers.

This is one of my biggest beefs with Christianity.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The dogma of eternal torture is ridiculous on the face of it, being in direct contradiction of any benevolent omni-being. Even most humans are better than that - the hells they construct are at least nominally "corrections facilities", not torture chambers.

This is one of my biggest beefs with Christianity.

My biggest beef is with the non-factual bases of their claims. If they had those, then Hell would just be a crappy thing that we'd need to accept about the universe, like the existence of that piece of shit planet Neptune - it sucking really badly doesn't change the fact that it's sitting there taking up space in our solar system which could be put to better use by literally anything else.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

If christian and religious claims generally were true everyone would be signing on. So I think there's a lot of truth to Gun Nut's statement that he never met a person who actually believed in a real god creature. It's more about pretending when it's convenient or profitable, and to gain social advantage. If persons really believed such fantastic claims were true their behavior would be far different.

 

[Lion IRC]

The dogma of eternal torture is ridiculous on the face of it, being in direct contradiction of any benevolent omni-being. Even most humans are better than that - the hells they construct are at least nominally "corrections facilities", not torture chambers.

This is one of my biggest beefs with Christianity.

I wouldn't worship any god who allowed unrepentant rapists and their victims spend eternity in the same place. But I can see why it would feel like torture for a rapist to know that they could never rape anyone ever again.

 

[Politesse]

The dogma of eternal torture is ridiculous on the face of it, being in direct contradiction of any benevolent omni-being. Even most humans are better than that - the hells they construct are at least nominally "corrections facilities", not torture chambers.

This is one of my biggest beefs with Christianity.

I wouldn't worship any god who allowed unrepentant rapists and their victims spend eternity in the same place. But I can see why it would feel like torture for a rapist to know that they could never rape anyone ever again.

Wait, so the torture felt by the victim (by having to spend eternity with their rapist) is fine, as long as the rapist has apologized to Jesus for having done it?

 

[skepticalbip]

Given the televangelists and the other smug self-involved asses that proclaim they are going to heaven and people they claim are going to hell, I can appreciate Mark Twain's dilemma:

Dying man couldn't make up his mind which place to go to -- both have their advantages, "heaven for climate, hell for company!"

~ Mark Twain's Notebooks and Journals, vol. 3

 

[Lion IRC]

I wouldn't worship any god who allowed unrepentant rapists and their victims spend eternity in the same place. But I can see why it would feel like torture for a rapist to know that they could never rape anyone ever again.

Wait, so the torture felt by the victim (by having to spend eternity with their rapist) is fine, as long as the rapist has apologized to Jesus for having done it?

"How many times does God expect us to forgive someone who hurts us?"
https://billygraham.org/answer/how-many-times-does-god-expect-us-to-forgive-someone-who-hurts-us/

 

[Politesse]

-dp-

 

[Politesse]

I wouldn't worship any god who allowed unrepentant rapists and their victims spend eternity in the same place. But I can see why it would feel like torture for a rapist to know that they could never rape anyone ever again.

Wait, so the torture felt by the victim (by having to spend eternity with their rapist) is fine, as long as the rapist has apologized to Jesus for having done it?

"How many times does God expect us to forgive someone who hurts us?"
https://billygraham.org/answer/how-many-times-does-god-expect-us-to-forgive-someone-who-hurts-us/

Ah, so you want me to agree with screwy cosmology because of the distress it might cause a victim of an unrepentant abuser if it weren't true. While the victim of a "repentant" abuser not only deserves no such mercy, but should themselves be considered immoral for experiencing trauma at all. Bit of a mixed message there.

I'm glad we don't design our earthly penal system the same way - anyone could get out of any crime by just saying they are sorry!

 

[skepticalbip]

People are not supposed to think about Christian apologetics. The idea is to just accept them on a superficial level and feel good. Just superficially, the necessary conclusion that a rape victim is obligated to forgive the rapist or end up in hell - being victimized twice, once by the rapist then victimized by god, doesn't supposed come to mind.

 

[Lion IRC]

"How many times does God expect us to forgive someone who hurts us?"
https://billygraham.org/answer/how-many-times-does-god-expect-us-to-forgive-someone-who-hurts-us/

Ah, so you want me to agree with screwy cosmology because of the distress it might cause a victim of an unrepentant abuser if it weren't true. While the victim of a "repentant" abuser not only deserves no such mercy, but should themselves be considered immoral for experiencing trauma at all. Bit of a mixed message there.

I'm glad we don't design our earthly penal system the same way - anyone could get out of any crime by just saying they are sorry!

I don't want you to agree with God's version of salvation and the afterlife.
On any mainstream understanding of Christian theology, the inhabitants of heaven all willingly and happily (joyfully) share space with repentant former sinners.
If you have any citations you can provide, that show otherwise please share.
In the meantime...

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV)

 

[Politesse]

"How many times does God expect us to forgive someone who hurts us?"
https://billygraham.org/answer/how-many-times-does-god-expect-us-to-forgive-someone-who-hurts-us/

Ah, so you want me to agree with screwy cosmology because of the distress it might cause a victim of an unrepentant abuser if it weren't true. While the victim of a "repentant" abuser not only deserves no such mercy, but should themselves be considered immoral for experiencing trauma at all. Bit of a mixed message there.

I'm glad we don't design our earthly penal system the same way - anyone could get out of any crime by just saying they are sorry!

I don't want you to agree with God's version of salvation and the afterlife.
On any mainstream understanding of Christian theology, the inhabitants of heaven all willingly and happily (joyfully) share space with repentant former sinners.
If you have any citations you can provide, that show otherwise please share.
In the meantime...

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV)

You are the one rebelling against the teaching in that verse, by insisting that some must be punished and others not. Peter there argues that all must be reconciled to God. I find this a much more palatable idea than a cosmology in which some are punished eternally for rape and others not at all, depending on what "religion" box they check.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

People are not supposed to think about Christian apologetics. The idea is to just accept them on a superficial level and feel good. Just superficially, the necessary conclusion that a rape victim is obligated to forgive the rapist or end up in hell - being victimized twice, once by the rapist then victimized by god, doesn't supposed come to mind.

Or maybe adherents recognize the evil on some level, that their religion is evil. I've met believers who tell me Hitler was their brother because we're all brothers but I think they do this because they know anyone can be in their heaven because their god creature is so unpredictable. That kind of evil is enough to scare anyone.

 

[skepticalbip]

As support for those believers who claimed Hitler was their brother, one of the mottos of the Third Reich was, Gott mit uns (God with us).

 

[Lion IRC]

I don't want you to agree with God's version of salvation and the afterlife.
On any mainstream understanding of Christian theology, the inhabitants of heaven all willingly and happily (joyfully) share space with repentant former sinners.
If you have any citations you can provide, that show otherwise please share.
In the meantime...

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV)

You are the one rebelling against the teaching in that verse, by insisting that some must be punished and others not. Peter there argues that all must be reconciled to God. I find this a much more palatable idea than a cosmology in which some are punished eternally for rape and others not at all, depending on what "religion" box they check.

WUT???
I don't "insist" that some must be punished.
I hope no one is punished.
That's exactly the sentiment of that verse - God doesn't want to have to send anyone to hell.
I also assert it is mainstream Christian theology that if you are in heaven, you are not holding a grudge against a repentant fellow inhabitant of heaven who had previously "sinned against you".

If you want to put words in my mouth - use the quote function.

 

[Politesse]

I don't want you to agree with God's version of salvation and the afterlife.
On any mainstream understanding of Christian theology, the inhabitants of heaven all willingly and happily (joyfully) share space with repentant former sinners.
If you have any citations you can provide, that show otherwise please share.
In the meantime...

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV)

You are the one rebelling against the teaching in that verse, by insisting that some must be punished and others not. Peter there argues that all must be reconciled to God. I find this a much more palatable idea than a cosmology in which some are punished eternally for rape and others not at all, depending on what "religion" box they check.

WUT???
I don't "insist" that some must be punished.
I hope no one is punished.
That's exactly the sentiment of that verse - God doesn't want to have to send anyone to hell.
I also assert it is mainstream Christian theology that if you are in heaven, you are not holding a grudge against a repentant fellow inhabitant of heaven who had previously "sinned against you".

If you want to put words in my mouth - use the quote function.

God is not under any compulsion from anyone.

 

[southernhybrid]

I don't know what you mean here. Are you saying it isn't important to a god being how many converts are made by a given person, that there is no additional afterlife payoff for that person whether they convert ten million or none or cause ten million to lose their faith?

Just as it often seems to me, as I suspected. Atheists seem contextually unaware of the Gospels imo, henceforth why Christians get concerned.

No extra payoff's regardless of how many you convert, be it many ...or non. Basically (as its written) each person is accountable for their own selves.

No offense, Learner, but my experience has been that there are a lot of atheists who know more about the gospels than most Christians do. Many of us were raised in Christian homes and later felt we could no longer believe what we had been taught as children. Some of us were pastors who could no longer make sense of what they had learned and some students in seminary school also leave the faith. I actually left Christianity while attending a very conservative Christian college. One of Billy Graham's daughters was in my class. We were required to take New Testament survey in order to graduate, so I've been exposed to the gospels constantly during my earlier life.

So, here are some verses from Matthew 10 that don't give a very pretty picture of some of the things that Jesus supposedly said.

10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

If you tell others that you follow me, I will put in a good word for you with my Father.
10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

But if you deny me to men, I'll deny you before my Father in heaven. [10]
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Don't think I have come to bring peace on earth.
I haven't come to bring peace, but the sword. [11]

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

I have come to set a father against his son, the daughter against her mother, and a daughter in law against her mother in law. [12]
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

And a man's enemies shall be in his own family.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Whoever loves his father or mother, son or daughter, more than me is not worthy of me.
10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

And whoever doesn't take his cross and follow me, is not worthy of me.
10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

That's just one tiny example of the type of divisive, fear mongering things that supposedly were said by Jesus. I"m not even convinced that there was an actual Jesus, or if there was a charismatic person who lived in that era who was worshipped. And as a result, many myths sprang up about his life and mission. Maybe Jesus was a social justice warrior but due to the times he lived in, his followers added a lot of crazy supernatural stuff to his character. The Gospels were said to be written down several decades after the death of Jesus. It's pretty hard to swallow all of this as truthful.

Anyway, it is nice of you to stick around here. I know you are a minority at this forum and perhaps you think you can bring us back to Jesus. I'm not trying to tell you what you must believe, but since giving up the damaging beliefs that I was taught as a child, helped me be a more curious person and a person who learned to be more tolerant, I certainly feel that it's okay for me to try and explain how enlightening it can be to come to terms that there is no one true religion. And if you find value in Christianity, I encourage you to take the writings with a grain of salt.


To paraphrase the late Issac Asimov, If I were to believe in a god, it would be one who judged his people by their character....That's not the exact quote but you get the idea. That's certainly good advice.

 

[Lion IRC]

I don't want you to agree with God's version of salvation and the afterlife.
On any mainstream understanding of Christian theology, the inhabitants of heaven all willingly and happily (joyfully) share space with repentant former sinners.
If you have any citations you can provide, that show otherwise please share.
In the meantime...

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV)

You are the one rebelling against the teaching in that verse, by insisting that some must be punished and others not. Peter there argues that all must be reconciled to God. I find this a much more palatable idea than a cosmology in which some are punished eternally for rape and others not at all, depending on what "religion" box they check.

WUT???
I don't "insist" that some must be punished.
I hope no one is punished.
That's exactly the sentiment of that verse - God doesn't want to have to send anyone to hell.
I also assert it is mainstream Christian theology that if you are in heaven, you are not holding a grudge against a repentant fellow inhabitant of heaven who had previously "sinned against you".

If you want to put words in my mouth - use the quote function.

God is not under any compulsion from anyone.

Except Himself.

If He feels He must punish unrepentant sinners that is what will happen.
And I wouldn't worship any god who failed to enforce what is right and just.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

I don't want you to agree with God's version of salvation and the afterlife.
On any mainstream understanding of Christian theology, the inhabitants of heaven all willingly and happily (joyfully) share space with repentant former sinners.
If you have any citations you can provide, that show otherwise please share.
In the meantime...

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV)

You are the one rebelling against the teaching in that verse, by insisting that some must be punished and others not. Peter there argues that all must be reconciled to God. I find this a much more palatable idea than a cosmology in which some are punished eternally for rape and others not at all, depending on what "religion" box they check.

WUT???
I don't "insist" that some must be punished.
I hope no one is punished.
That's exactly the sentiment of that verse - God doesn't want to have to send anyone to hell.
I also assert it is mainstream Christian theology that if you are in heaven, you are not holding a grudge against a repentant fellow inhabitant of heaven who had previously "sinned against you".

If you want to put words in my mouth - use the quote function.

Romans 9
¹⁸ Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
¹⁹ Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
²⁰ Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
²¹ Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

So God arbitrarily decides who to hate and who to make his elect, and who is damned and who is saved.

 

[Politesse]

You are the one rebelling against the teaching in that verse, by insisting that some must be punished and others not. Peter there argues that all must be reconciled to God. I find this a much more palatable idea than a cosmology in which some are punished eternally for rape and others not at all, depending on what "religion" box they check.

WUT???
I don't "insist" that some must be punished.
I hope no one is punished.
That's exactly the sentiment of that verse - God doesn't want to have to send anyone to hell.
I also assert it is mainstream Christian theology that if you are in heaven, you are not holding a grudge against a repentant fellow inhabitant of heaven who had previously "sinned against you".

If you want to put words in my mouth - use the quote function.

God is not under any compulsion from anyone.

Except Himself.

If He feels He must punish unrepentant sinners that is what will happen.
And I wouldn't worship any god who failed to enforce what is right and just.

If he "feels he must punish someone" then he does not desire to save them. We're not talking about two different people here, or a victim of multiple personalities disorder. Either he desires to save us all, or he does not. And if he does, then we will be. There is no room for an eternal hell in the bosom of a loving and all-powerful god.

You are currently worshiping a god who fails to enforce what is right and just. For some, there is just punishment, for others forgiveness. Those forgiven face no penalty at all for hurting others, while others are tortured in agony with no hope of release because they told a lie once, or stole a stapler from the office supply closet. I quite agree that one should not worship an unjust God.