Why must theists prove god exists?

[Tharmas]

In my real life, I don't generally don't hear anything concerning religion or religious beliefs except when initiated by religious proselytizers.

The RN that was talking to my Dad when in the hospital was mentioning being able to get the cancer into remission was a "miracle". I interjected and noted the doctors and surgeons and chemo likely deserved some credit.

I live in Texas. The other night I actually heard a woman on the local TV news, who had recovered from some serious medical condition, exclaim "It's thanks to the almighty doctors and their wonderful knowledge!" Now I believe in miracles!

 

[DBT]

Which appears that a claim for the existence of a God or gods must be made before an atheist can argue against it?

If there was no belief or claim for the existence of God, everyone would be an atheist by default.

An intriguing claim. Many people of all religious traditions think children are naive/innocent members of their faith until taught otherwise, though. Children themselves rarely opine in quite the terms expected by the adults around them.

To be of the faith one must accept or hold a central defining belief of that faith. An absence of belief does not entail faith.

 

[Politesse]

Which appears that a claim for the existence of a God or gods must be made before an atheist can argue against it?

If there was no belief or claim for the existence of God, everyone would be an atheist by default.

An intriguing claim. Many people of all religious traditions think children are naive/innocent members of their faith until taught otherwise, though. Children themselves rarely opine in quite the terms expected by the adults around them.

To be of the faith one must accept or hold a central defining belief of that faith. An absence of belief does not entail faith.

Another interesting claim, to be sure.

 

[DBT]

To be of the faith one must accept or hold a central defining belief of that faith. An absence of belief does not entail faith.

Another interesting claim, to be sure.

It's not a claim. Faith is a class of belief. A belief held without the support of evidence. This is not controversial. You don't need faith in the absence of evidence. A lack of conviction is justified by an absence of evidence to form a justified conviction.

It would be faith if there was sufficient evidence to support a justified belief in the existence of a God, yet someone refused to accept that evidence and held to the opposite.

 

[Politesse]

To be of the faith one must accept or hold a central defining belief of that faith. An absence of belief does not entail faith.

Another interesting claim, to be sure.

It's not a claim. Faith is a class of belief. A belief held without the support of evidence. This is not controversial. You don't need faith in the absence of evidence. A lack of conviction is justified by an absence of evidence to form a justified conviction.

It would be faith if there was sufficient evidence to support a justified belief in the existence of a God, yet someone refused to accept that evidence and held to the opposite.

I agree that if we start with your assumptions, the rest follows from them.

 

[DBT]

It's not a claim. Faith is a class of belief. A belief held without the support of evidence. This is not controversial. You don't need faith in the absence of evidence. A lack of conviction is justified by an absence of evidence to form a justified conviction.

It would be faith if there was sufficient evidence to support a justified belief in the existence of a God, yet someone refused to accept that evidence and held to the opposite.

I agree that if we start with your assumptions, the rest follows from them.

It is not an assumption that a belief is held without the support of evidence. Either there is evidence to support a belief, or there is not. If there is insufficient evidence to support a justified belief, the belief is held on the basis of faith.

 

[steve_bank]

tigers

The problem is us atheists are bombarded with religious pressure a lot of demeaning and accusatory. You can hear it on FOX News and any number of Christian TV and radio shows. Atheists are the enemy. Atheists are the cause of all immorality.

Several times I have been talking to a Christian and without warning they rear up in as a powerful voice they can muster and start preaching about coming to Jesus.

I can go on with experiences.

Atheists are primarily defensive.

At least in this country you do not see Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, and even Muslims trying to interfere and impose their faith. It is soley Christians who think they have a god given right to do so.

 

[Learner]

From the perspective where a lot of Christians believe in the Judgement and Hell....

We are quite concerned for those around us - obviously this would undoubtedly include our own loved ones, being really concerned, which can not be helped! There IS a reason - quite strongly in this regard why we think its neccessary to preach the Gospel as according to the teachings and concept taken from Jesus, despite how arrogant it may seem to atheists. Imo, like many believers, we don't see many atheists as enemies (as often portrayed) but rather as some of the those...who are among the lost sheep.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

i.e., some people consider anyone who happens to lack a belief in god as an "atheist", whether or not they would agree. That's not a color, to me, because it isn't a preference. Given the choice, someone might choose to identify in any number of ways other than atheist; the very reason sociologists of religion struggle to understand the so-called "nones".

Summarizing: Categorizing yourself is picking a color. Being categorized by someone else is not.

The reason I haven't replied to this is that I can't work out an answer.

I'll just say that I think I broadly don't disagree.

Point taken about 'nones'. Yes, I'm sure it must be hard to work out what that means, as I guess it will mean different things to different people, and indeed mean different things as an answer to different questions, which might have different lists of options as answers, in different contexts.

Good points here. It's basically not being interested in a topic because it's not relevant to my life.

I have never had a "none" or atheist person come knocking on my door, but I have had lots of believers in religious magic come knocking, wanting me to be just like them because ___________.

 

[Atheos]

From the perspective where a lot of Christians believe in the Judgement and Hell....

We are quite concerned for those around us - obviously this would undoubtedly include our own loved ones, being really concerned, which can not be helped! There IS a reason - quite strongly in this regard why we think its neccessary to preach the Gospel as according to the teachings and concept taken from Jesus, despite how arrogant it may seem to atheists. Imo, like many believers, we don't see many atheists as enemies (as often portrayed) but rather as some of the those...who are among the lost sheep.

For Christians who believe in Hell it would seem to me to be callous indeed not to spend as much effort as possible attempting to secure the salvation of others. Few religions wield both the carrot and the stick as rigorously.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

From the perspective where a lot of Christians believe in the Judgement and Hell....

We are quite concerned for those around us - obviously this would undoubtedly include our own loved ones, being really concerned, which can not be helped! There IS a reason - quite strongly in this regard why we think its neccessary to preach the Gospel as according to the teachings and concept taken from Jesus, despite how arrogant it may seem to atheists. Imo, like many believers, we don't see many atheists as enemies (as often portrayed) but rather as some of the those...who are among the lost sheep.

Is it concern or is it dangerous self-serving paranoia?

 

[Learner]

For Christians who believe in Hell it would seem to me to be callous indeed not to spend as much effort as possible attempting to secure the salvation of others. Few religions wield both the carrot and the stick as rigorously.

Spending much effort to preach and secure salvation is offensive and despised because some individuals, like the way things are in their lives. Other religious ideologies would have compatibility and do evolve-to-fit regardless, just for the sake of existing.

 

[Learner]

Is it concern or is it dangerous self-serving paranoia?

There is no personal gain in worldly prosperity in regards to a believer of Jesus. It would be someone else, who would gain because of the concern for them.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Is it concern or is it dangerous self-serving paranoia?

There is no personal gain in worldly prosperity in regards to a believer of Jesus. It would be someone else, who would gain because of the concern for them.

I don't know what you mean here. Are you saying it isn't important to a god being how many converts are made by a given person, that there is no additional afterlife payoff for that person whether they convert ten million or none or cause ten million to lose their faith?

 

[southernhybrid]

For Christians who believe in Hell it would seem to me to be callous indeed not to spend as much effort as possible attempting to secure the salvation of others. Few religions wield both the carrot and the stick as rigorously.

Spending much effort to preach and secure salvation is offensive and despised because some individuals, like the way things are in their lives. Other religious ideologies would have compatibility and do evolve-to-fit regardless, just for the sake of existing.

No, we hate it because we've heard it a thousand times before, and it's still irrational nonsense. I was dragged to do door to door preaching once when I was a child and my parents were still in the thrill of believing they had found the truth. If you really believe these things but just about everyone in the US has heard this so called message numerous times, what is the point of continuing to be insulting and self righteous!

I know you mean well. You seem like a decent person, but I'm a decent, well meaning person too. I always try to be kind, and generous. I despise cruelty, including the cruelty that's in many Biblical stories. I believed the things that you believe now, but at one point, the cognitive dissonance made me come to my senses and I was no longer able to believe such contradictory emotional things that had no basis in reality. I looked around and saw that Christians were no better than anyone else, and sometimes they were nasty, judgmental and cruel.

I am not concerned in the least about going to hell because hell is not a real place. Sometimes life on earth is a living hell, especially for those who don't have a roof over their heads, who don't have enough food to eat, or anyone who cares about them, etc. etc. But, even if there was an entity called god, she would never be as cruel and vindictive as the god in the Christian Bible.

the Bible is full of genocidal revenge committed by this invisible entity. It's been used to justify slavery and all kinds of cruelty. Why on earth would any decent person believe there is truth in that ugly book? Sure, there are some nice parts, but taken as a whole, the books is full of nasty myths and false promises used to promote an attitude of self righteousness. Since leaving Christianity about 50 years ago, I have never been able to understand how or why anyone in the modern world can still hold the concepts in the Bible as truth, instead of the ancient myths that they are. But as the late Joseph Campbell said, "there is power in mythology". If one must have myths to guide their lives and find purpose, why not choose one that isn't so cruel and narrow minded as the conservative Christian mythology?

Sorry Lerner. I don't mean my little rant to be personal. My own parents believed like you do, and I never stopped loving them. We never allowed our different beliefs to come between us. And happily, before my mother became a victim of dementia, she once told my husband that she no longer believed that people like me were going to hell. I guess the cognitive dissonance got to her a bit, because the thought of her own daughter, who has always loved her, would be eternally tortured, was too horrific a thought. I was relieved to hear that this burden had been lifted from my dear mother, who now nearing the end of her life.

You can't prove that god exists anymore than I can prove that she doesn't. I can't prove that garden fairies don't exist either, and garden fairies are cute, harmless little creatures, even if they are imaginary.

 

[Elixir]

For Christians who believe in Hell it would seem to me to be callous indeed not to spend as much effort as possible attempting to secure the salvation of others. Few religions wield both the carrot and the stick as rigorously.

Spending much effort to preach and secure salvation is offensive and despised because some individuals, like the way things are in their lives. Other religious ideologies would have compatibility and do evolve-to-fit regardless, just for the sake of existing.

No, we hate it because we've heard it a thousand times before, and it's still irrational nonsense. I was dragged to do door to door preaching once when I was a child and my parents were still in the thrill of believing they had found the truth. If you really believe these things but just about everyone in the US has heard this so called message numerous times, what is the point of continuing to be insulting and self righteous!

I know you mean well. You seem like a decent person, but I'm a decent, well meaning person too. I always try to be kind, and generous. I despise cruelty, including the cruelty that's in many Biblical stories. I believed the things that you believe now, but at one point, the cognitive dissonance made me come to my senses and I was no longer able to believe such contradictory emotional things that had no basis in reality. I looked around and saw that Christians were no better than anyone else, and sometimes they were nasty, judgmental and cruel.

I am not concerned in the least about going to hell because hell is not a real place. Sometimes life on earth is a living hell, especially for those who don't have a roof over their heads, who don't have enough food to eat, or anyone who cares about them, etc. etc. But, even if there was an entity called god, she would never be as cruel and vindictive as the god in the Christian Bible.

the Bible is full of genocidal revenge committed by this invisible entity. It's been used to justify slavery and all kinds of cruelty. Why on earth would any decent person believe there is truth in that ugly book? Sure, there are some nice parts, but taken as a whole, the books is full of nasty myths and false promises used to promote an attitude of self righteousness. Since leaving Christianity about 50 years ago, I have never been able to understand how or why anyone in the modern world can still hold the concepts in the Bible as truth, instead of the ancient myths that they are. But as the late Joseph Campbell said, "there is power in mythology". If one must have myths to guide their lives and find purpose, why not choose one that isn't so cruel and narrow minded as the conservative Christian mythology?

Sorry Lerner. I don't mean my little rant to be personal. My own parents believed like you do, and I never stopped loving them. We never allowed our different beliefs to come between us. And happily, before my mother became a victim of dementia, she once told my husband that she no longer believed that people like me were going to hell. I guess the cognitive dissonance got to her a bit, because the thought of her own daughter, who has always loved her, would be eternally tortured, was too horrific a thought. I was relieved to hear that this burden had been lifted from my dear mother, who now nearing the end of her life.

You can't prove that god exists anymore than I can prove that she doesn't. I can't prove that garden fairies don't exist either, and garden fairies are cute, harmless little creatures, even if they are imaginary.

The dogma of eternal torture is ridiculous on the face of it, being in direct contradiction of any benevolent omni-being. Even most humans are better than that - the hells they construct are at least nominally "corrections facilities", not torture chambers.

 

[Learner]

Is it concern or is it dangerous self-serving paranoia?

There is no personal gain in worldly prosperity in regards to a believer of Jesus. It would be someone else, who would gain because of the concern for them.

I don't know what you mean here. Are you saying it isn't important to a god being how many converts are made by a given person, that there is no additional afterlife payoff for that person whether they convert ten million or none or cause ten million to lose their faith?

Just as it often seems to me, as I suspected. Atheists seem contextually unaware of the Gospels imo, henceforth why Christians get concerned.

No extra payoff's regardless of how many you convert, be it many ...or non. Basically (as its written) each person is accountable for their own selves.

 

[Learner]

For Christians who believe in Hell it would seem to me to be callous indeed not to spend as much effort as possible attempting to secure the salvation of others. Few religions wield both the carrot and the stick as rigorously.

Spending much effort to preach and secure salvation is offensive and despised because some individuals, like the way things are in their lives. Other religious ideologies would have compatibility and do evolve-to-fit regardless, just for the sake of existing.

No, we hate it because we've heard it a thousand times before, and it's still irrational nonsense. I was dragged to do door to door preaching once when I was a child and my parents were still in the thrill of believing they had found the truth. If you really believe these things but just about everyone in the US has heard this so called message numerous times, what is the point of continuing to be insulting and self righteous!

There are all types of believers I'm sure you are aware of - from the types often mentioned like the right-wing over there and those forcing upon others giving insults and demands etc.. and then there are others like for example: the gentle and courteous preaching approach for those that want to hear like the well known among them, Ray Comfort who often gets insulted a lot himself.

I know you mean well. You seem like a decent person, but I'm a decent, well meaning person too. I always try to be kind, and generous. I despise cruelty, including the cruelty that's in many Biblical stories. I believed the things that you believe now, but at one point, the cognitive dissonance made me come to my senses and I was no longer able to believe such contradictory emotional things that had no basis in reality. I looked around and saw that Christians were no better than anyone else, and sometimes they were nasty, judgmental and cruel.

We know there are good people out there just as youself who are not believers, just as we know and accept the kind-hearted deeds of the Samaritan in the bible.

I am not concerned in the least about going to hell because hell is not a real place. Sometimes life on earth is a living hell, especially for those who don't have a roof over their heads, who don't have enough food to eat, or anyone who cares about them, etc. etc. But, even if there was an entity called god, she would never be as cruel and vindictive as the god in the Christian Bible.

I'm sure you would think life could be so much better, if all the most fortunate actually cared for the very unfortunate?

the Bible is full of genocidal revenge committed by this invisible entity. It's been used to justify slavery and all kinds of cruelty. Why on earth would any decent person believe there is truth in that ugly book? Sure, there are some nice parts, but taken as a whole, the books is full of nasty myths and false promises used to promote an attitude of self righteousness. Since leaving Christianity about 50 years ago, I have never been able to understand how or why anyone in the modern world can still hold the concepts in the Bible as truth, instead of the ancient myths that they are. But as the late Joseph Campbell said, "there is power in mythology". If one must have myths to guide their lives and find purpose, why not choose one that isn't so cruel and narrow minded as the conservative Christian mythology?

Well yes we have a difference of opinion regarding the gospels. I don't call them myths obviously. You can read books all over the place about past and current world wars, finding many genocidal atrocities. You'll read about courageous heroes that are said to shoot-out or bomb evil-doers kiling them for the greater good all the time.

Sorry Lerner. I don't mean my little rant to be personal. My own parents believed like you do, and I never stopped loving them. We never allowed our different beliefs to come between us. And happily, before my mother became a victim of dementia, she once told my husband that she no longer believed that people like me were going to hell. I guess the cognitive dissonance got to her a bit, because the thought of her own daughter, who has always loved her, would be eternally tortured, was too horrific a thought. I was relieved to hear that this burden had been lifted from my dear mother, who now nearing the end of her life.

You can't prove that god exists anymore than I can prove that she doesn't. I can't prove that garden fairies don't exist either, and garden fairies are cute, harmless little creatures, even if they are imaginary.

Fair point of view from your experience. I won't respond here. No need for apologies.

 

[Learner]

The dogma of eternal torture is ridiculous on the face of it, being in direct contradiction of any benevolent omni-being. Even most humans are better than that - the hells they construct are at least nominally "corrections facilities", not torture chambers.

Similar to moogly, depending what you interpret from how you read it in context. Only the most evil have eternal reservations, so to speak.

 

[ruby sparks]

Imo, like many believers, we some of us don't see many atheists as enemies (as often portrayed) but rather as some of the those...who are among the lost sheep.

FIFY