Infinte Regress Timeline...

[bilby]

How can something that has always been have a start?

If it has always been, then all of it cannot pass.

Why not? It has infinite time to do so...

 

[skepticalbip]

How can something that has always been have a start?

If it has always been, then all of it cannot pass.

It already has up until our current now.

 

[ryan]

How can all of something pass without ever starting?!

How can time start without a cause at an earlier time?

A cause takes no time to happen.

 

[bilby]

How can time start without a cause at an earlier time?

A cause takes no time to happen.

Says who?

 

[ryan]

If it has always been, then all of it cannot pass.

Why not? It has infinite time to do so...

"All of something" that passes implies a beginning and an end.

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If it has always been, then all of it cannot pass.

It already has up until our current now.

"All of something" that passes implies a beginning and an end.

 

[skepticalbip]

If it has always been, then all of it cannot pass.

It already has up until our current now.

"All of something" that passes implies a beginning and an end.

A nonsense assertion.

If the past is infinite then every event that happened had a moment of time available for it to happen. An infinite number of events in an infinite amount of time is no contradiction.

However, you could be stuck in Zeno's reasoning mode.

 

[ryan]

A cause takes no time to happen.

Says who?

In fields causes happen continuously.

 

[bilby]

Why not? It has infinite time to do so...

"All of something" that passes implies a beginning and an end.

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If it has always been, then all of it cannot pass.

It already has up until our current now.

"All of something" that passes implies a beginning and an end.

Then your original question was irrelevant to the concept of an infinite past. If your question requires a start to make sense, then it is a nonsensical question in the context of an infinite past.

The past is infinite.
The past ends at the present.
Therefore the past has no beginning.
'All of something that passes' implies a beginning and an end.
Therefore an infinite past is not 'All of something that passes'.

Of course, it is also possible that 'All of something that passes' does not imply a beginning and an end.

It isn't really clear exactly what 'All of something that passes' means. Nor is it obvious that time is something that passes. Distance isn't defined as 'something that passes'; I am not convinced that time can be either.

Everything in our direct experience moves through time at a near constant rate; but then, everything in our direct experience accelerates towards the centre of the Earth at a near constant rate too. We need to be wary of extrapolating from local conditions to assumed universal constants; And phenomena such as time dilation suggest that the constancy of our passage through time is a local, rather than universal phenomenon.

If time is a dimension directly analogous to but orthogonal to the three dimensions of space, as I suspect it might be, then there is no more a problem with the present being our current position in potentially infinite time than there is with here being our current position in potentially infinite space.

 

[ryan]

If it has always been, then all of it cannot pass.

It already has up until our current now.

"All of something" that passes implies a beginning and an end.

A nonsense assertion.

If the past is infinite then every event that happened had a moment of time available for it to happen. An infinite number of events in an infinite amount of time is no contradiction.

Can you please explain why it's a nonsense assertion before moving on?

 

[skepticalbip]

If it has always been, then all of it cannot pass.

It already has up until our current now.

"All of something" that passes implies a beginning and an end.

A nonsense assertion.

If the past is infinite then every event that happened had a moment of time available for it to happen. An infinite number of events in an infinite amount of time is no contradiction.

Can you please explain why it's a nonsense assertion before moving on?

No such thing is implied. Explain why you think there is. Every event in the past happened in the past whether time is finite (so there were a finite number of events) or time is infinite (so there were an infinint number of events).

 

[ryan]

"All of something" that passes implies a beginning and an end.

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If it has always been, then all of it cannot pass.

It already has up until our current now.

"All of something" that passes implies a beginning and an end.

Then your original question was irrelevant to the concept of an infinite past. If your question requires a start to make sense, then it is a nonsensical question in the context of an infinite past.

The past is infinite.
The past ends at the present.
Therefore the past has no beginning.
'All of something that passes' implies a beginning and an end.
Therefore an infinite past is not 'All of something that passes'.

You are the one who says that it all passes in infinite time. And you are the who says that infinite time would have no beginning.

Of course, it is also possible that 'All of something that passes' does not imply a beginning and an end.

The stuff above seems sloppy, so I see how you got to this statement.

It isn't really clear exactly what 'All of something that passes' means. Nor is it obvious that time is something that passes. Distance isn't defined as 'something that passes'; I am not convinced that time can be either.

Everything in our direct experience moves through time at a near constant rate; but then, everything in our direct experience accelerates towards the centre of the Earth at a near constant rate too. We need to be wary of extrapolating from local conditions to assumed universal constants; And phenomena such as time dilation suggest that the constancy of our passage through time is a local, rather than universal phenomenon.

If time is a dimension directly analogous to but orthogonal to the three dimensions of space, as I suspect it might be, then there is no more a problem with the present being our current position in potentially infinite time than there is with here being our current position in potentially infinite space.

Let's just stick with the theories of relativity and all that they imply.

 

[ryan]

If it has always been, then all of it cannot pass.

It already has up until our current now.

"All of something" that passes implies a beginning and an end.

A nonsense assertion.

If the past is infinite then every event that happened had a moment of time available for it to happen. An infinite number of events in an infinite amount of time is no contradiction.

Can you please explain why it's a nonsense assertion before moving on?

No such thing is implied. Explain why you think there is.

If all of the natural numbers on a number line passed by you, wouldn't you have to say that the line began and ended?

 

[bilby]

If it has always been, then all of it cannot pass.

It already has up until our current now.

"All of something" that passes implies a beginning and an end.

A nonsense assertion.

If the past is infinite then every event that happened had a moment of time available for it to happen. An infinite number of events in an infinite amount of time is no contradiction.

Can you please explain why it's a nonsense assertion before moving on?

No such thing is implied. Explain why you think there is.

If all of the natural numbers on a number line passed by you, wouldn't you have to say that the line began and ended?

Is it necessary for all of the natural numbers on a number line to pass by me in order for me to start counting?

 

[skepticalbip]

If it has always been, then all of it cannot pass.

It already has up until our current now.

"All of something" that passes implies a beginning and an end.

A nonsense assertion.

If the past is infinite then every event that happened had a moment of time available for it to happen. An infinite number of events in an infinite amount of time is no contradiction.

Can you please explain why it's a nonsense assertion before moving on?

No such thing is implied. Explain why you think there is.

If all of the natural numbers on a number line passed by you, wouldn't you have to say that the line began and ended?

WTF

Time doesn't pass by me. Events in the past are in the past. I don't expect to see Columbus setting sail. That already happened regardless of whether time is finite or infinite.

 

[bilby]

If it has always been, then all of it cannot pass.

It already has up until our current now.

"All of something" that passes implies a beginning and an end.

A nonsense assertion.

If the past is infinite then every event that happened had a moment of time available for it to happen. An infinite number of events in an infinite amount of time is no contradiction.

Can you please explain why it's a nonsense assertion before moving on?

No such thing is implied. Explain why you think there is.

If all of the natural numbers on a number line passed by you, wouldn't you have to say that the line began and ended?

WTF

Time doesn't pass by me. Events in the past are in the past.

Ahhh. THAT explains why I don't remember seeing any dinosaurs.

 

[ryan]

If all of the natural numbers on a number line passed by you, wouldn't you have to say that the line began and ended?

Is it necessary for all of the natural numbers on a number line to pass by me in order for me to start counting?

Yes if you want to count each one that passes by you.

 

[ryan]

If all of the natural numbers on a number line passed by you, wouldn't you have to say that the line began and ended?

WTF

Time doesn't pass by me. Events in the past are in the past. I don't expect to see Columbus setting sail. That already happened regardless of whether time is finite or infinite.

Imagine that you are the reference frame that they all passed through.

 

[bilby]

Is it necessary for all of the natural numbers on a number line to pass by me in order for me to start counting?

Yes if you want to count each one that passes by you.

Why the fuck would I want to do that? It would require an infinite amount of time. Of course, if I had an infinite amount of time, then I could do it; but that it is possible does not imply that it is necessary or desirable. I can just start counting wherever I find myself.

 

[skepticalbip]

WTF

Time doesn't pass by me. Events in the past are in the past. I don't expect to see Columbus setting sail. That already happened regardless of whether time is finite or infinite.

Imagine that you are the reference frame that they all passed through.

That makes absolutely no sense. Was that intentional?

What is this "reference frame" that time "passes through"?

If you are talking about watching a movie of what has happened in time then for finite time it would be a short movie. If time is infinite then it would have to be run starting from today and going back so you would be watching it forever as universe after universe after universe was shown.

 

[ryan]

Yes if you want to count each one that passes by you.

Why the fuck would I want to do that? It would require an infinite amount of time. Of course, if I had an infinite amount of time, then I could do it; but that it is possible does not imply that it is necessary or desirable. I can just start counting wherever I find myself.

Let me repeat the original question. If all of the natural numbers on a number line passed by you, wouldn't you have to say that the line began and ended?

The number line passes by you; what you count is not relevant to what the number line is doing. Answer the question please.