Trans activists: Trans women should not be required to suppress testosterone to play on women's teams

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Toni, what you say here is...unhinged. How you go from what I wrote to 'women should be compelled to menstruate'....I can't even.

I think part of the issue is it isn't clear why you brought up menstruation in the first place. Yes, that is a difference between cisgender and transgender women, generally. That was never really in contention. It doesn't have any apparent impact on competitive advantage. So what point is it making?

 

[Metaphor]

Toni, what you say here is...unhinged. How you go from what I wrote to 'women should be compelled to menstruate'....I can't even.

I think part of the issue is it isn't clear why you brought up menstruation in the first place. Yes, that is a difference between cisgender and transgender women, generally. That was never really in contention. It doesn't have any apparent impact on competitive advantage. So what point is it making?

The point is exactly as you say. Transwomen don't menstruate. That may or may not be a competitive advantage, but it's certainly a systemic difference.

Also, transwomen don't menstruate for one reason only: because transwomen don't have wombs. When women don't menstruate, there are a variety of different reasons.

Additional commentary:
Note that Toni went from my statement 'transwomen don't menstruate' to
* I only see women as babymaking factories
and
* Women shouldn't menstruate

Those two statements alone basically contradict each other, let alone that there's no connection between my statement and her accusations.

I can't understand Toni's mindset. That should be clear enough. But I do understand that Toni has never, ever admitted she was wrong, about anything. Like, not once. Nor is Toni willing to put in the work to discover if she might be wrong.

I doubt even my other ideological enemies on this topic can understand how Toni went to her conclusions from my statement. In specific instances I've asked Toni before to ask somebody on the board, via private message, whose opinion she trusts or respects, about some specific argument she's made. She isn't willing to do even that.

Toni will not explain why she accused me of the things she just accused me of "do you think women are only good for making babies" - jesus christ on a pogo stick, nor will she ever admit her logic is in error. I'll bet both you and laughing dog and even Jarhyn cannot understand why Toni accused me of what she did, because you can't backwards engineer her reasoning.

Well, I can't backwards engineer it either. Maybe she thinks I said "transwomen should not play women's sport, because transwomen don't menstruate", which is not something I said. But even if I had said that, it might be reasonable for me to also hold the position "women who don't menstruate should not play women's sports" but even if I held that idea (and I don't, because that's fucking insane), you could still not go to "women should not menstruate".

Toni, ask one of the people you trust if you think your accusations framed as questions make sense. You don't have to apologise to me (fat chance) but I think you could benefit from examining the errors in your thinking.

 

[Toni]

God's nightgown, Toni, the leaps you make. I can't even.



Toni, what you say here is...unhinged. How you go from what I wrote to 'women should be compelled to menstruate'....I can't even.

Honestly you need to sit down and think about what it is you are writing.

You have some extremely odd ideas about women.

Non. You have some extremely odd interpretations of words and sentences.

Attempts at gaslighting duly noted.

 

[Toni]

Toni, what you say here is...unhinged. How you go from what I wrote to 'women should be compelled to menstruate'....I can't even.

I think part of the issue is it isn't clear why you brought up menstruation in the first place. Yes, that is a difference between cisgender and transgender women, generally. That was never really in contention. It doesn't have any apparent impact on competitive advantage. So what point is it making?

He brought it up because he did not want to respond to my query about exactly what he thought female hormones do to a transwoman.


He used menstruation as a proxy for womanhood, quite irrationally because as I pointed out, many and perhaps most elite female athletes do not menstruate, either because the level and intensity and duration of physical exertion they engage in naturally suppresses menstruation or because some take birth control which can diminish or eliminate menstruation. Of course, many other women also take the same kinds of birth control, often specifically to diminish or eliminate menstruation. And of course women who have had hysterectomies do not menstruate nor do post menopausal women.

What I believe Metaphor was trying to suggest is that transwomen are not women. That seems to be his core belief--whatever those uncontrollable thoughts in his head are. He's stated repeatedly in other threads that once he believes something, he cannot control what he believes nor alter his beliefs.

And then when he doesn't like someone's arguments, he calls them unhinged or irrational or some other word to imply that they are 'crazy.' Just the way that some abusers call their victims, often female, crazy in order to gaslight them, or to attempt to diminish their words or actions. It's an attempt to shut down the conversation, to remove the onus on him to actually make a valid point. In this case, he tried to use the fact that transwomen do not menstruate to indicate that they are not 'really' women when in fact, many female athletes do not menstruate nor do many other women. He chose a poor example and has decided to try to distract by implying that I am unhinged. He lost his argument and he can't deal with it.

 

[Metaphor]

God's nightgown, Toni, the leaps you make. I can't even.



Toni, what you say here is...unhinged. How you go from what I wrote to 'women should be compelled to menstruate'....I can't even.

Honestly you need to sit down and think about what it is you are writing.

You have some extremely odd ideas about women.

Non. You have some extremely odd interpretations of words and sentences.

Attempts at gaslighting duly noted.

Baseless accusation of gaslighting attempt duly noted.

 

[Jarhyn]

Toni, what you say here is...unhinged. How you go from what I wrote to 'women should be compelled to menstruate'....I can't even.

I think part of the issue is it isn't clear why you brought up menstruation in the first place. Yes, that is a difference between cisgender and transgender women, generally. That was never really in contention. It doesn't have any apparent impact on competitive advantage. So what point is it making?

He's trying to deflect from the fact that he demands to know or assume what is in your pants, publicly.

Metaphor, all you do is continually describe your belief: that "men" are to be people born of the penis; and "women" are to be people born of the vagina; that it is a betrayal to call yourself a man being born of the vagina; it is a betrayal to call yourself a woman being born of the penis; language that acknowledges and communicates these facts or assumptions of genital history is to be widespread.

Metaphor, you do not justify this. You merely keep insisting it is so. The rest of us, the left, don't like your game. The left have proposed an alternative: Men are people who cleave to the peer group that identifies as "men", and likewise with women. Acceptance and respect as such comes in doing the things that people who you would have respect of, as your gender, give you that respect. You may be a man, but it is up to you to be a good man, in my eyes, to get my respect as such. It is much the same for everyone: I choose who to associate with on the basis of who I respect, and recommend correction to those who by accepting it will get my respect. Same for women.

Only in situations where there is a substantial difference, such as full, long term, or very recent exposure to testosterone, which makes a material difference such as for the example in competitive advantage when ranking competitive activities, do we actually create a differentiation, and specifically on that boundary, or as close to it as we dare.

 

[Metaphor]

He's trying to deflect from the fact that he demands to know or assume what is in your pants, publicly.

You continually imagine this falsehood and trumpet it constantly. Non. I expect people to segregate themselves by sex in spaces that have been segregated by sex.

Metaphor, all you do is continually describe your belief: that "men" are to be people born of the penis;

Non. This is a delusion you keep trumpeting. I have said on many occasions that the absence of a penis wouldn't make a man not a man.

and "women" are to be people born of the vagina; that it is a betrayal to call yourself a man being born of the vagina; it is a betrayal to call yourself a woman being born of the penis; language that acknowledges and communicates these facts or assumptions of genital history is to be widespread.

A "betrayal". Good fucking lord, you are deluded. Humans can't change sex. If humans could, I would not call it a 'betrayal' to change sex, as if people had some fucking pre-existing obligation to remain a particular sex.

Metaphor, you do not justify this. You merely keep insisting it is so. The rest of us, the left, don't like your game. The left have proposed an alternative: Men are people who cleave to the peer group that identifies as "men", and likewise with women. Acceptance and respect as such comes in doing the things that people who you would have respect of, as your gender, give you that respect. You may be a man, but it is up to you to be a good man, in my eyes, to get my respect as such. It is much the same for everyone: I choose who to associate with on the basis of who I respect, and recommend correction to those who by accepting it will get my respect. Same for women.

What is a man?

Note: do not use the word 'man' in your answer.

 

[Toni]

You continually imagine this falsehood and trumpet it constantly. Non. I expect people to segregate themselves by sex in spaces that have been segregated by sex.




Non. This is a delusion you keep trumpeting. I have said on many occasions that the absence of a penis wouldn't make a man not a man.

and "women" are to be people born of the vagina; that it is a betrayal to call yourself a man being born of the vagina; it is a betrayal to call yourself a woman being born of the penis; language that acknowledges and communicates these facts or assumptions of genital history is to be widespread.

A "betrayal". Good fucking lord, you are deluded. Humans can't change sex. If humans could, I would not call it a 'betrayal' to change sex, as if people had some fucking pre-existing obligation to remain a particular sex.

Metaphor, you do not justify this. You merely keep insisting it is so. The rest of us, the left, don't like your game. The left have proposed an alternative: Men are people who cleave to the peer group that identifies as "men", and likewise with women. Acceptance and respect as such comes in doing the things that people who you would have respect of, as your gender, give you that respect. You may be a man, but it is up to you to be a good man, in my eyes, to get my respect as such. It is much the same for everyone: I choose who to associate with on the basis of who I respect, and recommend correction to those who by accepting it will get my respect. Same for women.

What is a man?

Note: do not use the word 'man' in your answer.

See the above my bold: Once again, Metaphor must resort to implying that someone else is crazy or delusional and then goes on to insist that they respond in the manner that he dictates.

 

[Toni]

Attempts at gaslighting duly noted.

Baseless accusation of gaslighting attempt duly noted.

No, you are engaging in exactly the sort of behavior that abusers engage in: minimizing and denigrating the other person, calling them crazy or some other similar words in order to avoid engaging in honest conversation.

You made a mistake upthread. Instead of recognizing your error, you have called me various forms of crazy. You call krypton iodine sulfur deluded. You cannot engage in honest discourse so you must instead resort to gaslighting and name calling.

 

[Metaphor]

You continually imagine this falsehood and trumpet it constantly. Non. I expect people to segregate themselves by sex in spaces that have been segregated by sex.




Non. This is a delusion you keep trumpeting. I have said on many occasions that the absence of a penis wouldn't make a man not a man.



A "betrayal". Good fucking lord, you are deluded. Humans can't change sex. If humans could, I would not call it a 'betrayal' to change sex, as if people had some fucking pre-existing obligation to remain a particular sex.



What is a man?

Note: do not use the word 'man' in your answer.

See the above: Once again, Metaphor must resort to implying that someone else is crazy or delusional and then goes on to insist that they respond in the manner that he dictates.

They are either delusional or deliberately lying. I have every right to protect myself from Jarhyn's continual false accusations. I have never said "a penis" is what makes a man nor have I ever demanded to know what is in people's pants, either directly or by implication. Jarhyn either believes I believe this (delusional) or he is lying about it.

As for responding in the manner I dictate, I will perhaps revise the above 'demand'.

What is a man?

Note: if you use the word 'man' in your answer, your definition will be circular and will not be a useful definition. You should follow the examples of lexicographers who must avoid this trap.

 

[Metaphor]

Attempts at gaslighting duly noted.

Baseless accusation of gaslighting attempt duly noted.

No, you are engaging in exactly the sort of behavior that abusers engage in: minimizing and denigrating the other person, calling them crazy or some other similar words in order to avoid engaging in honest conversation.

You made a mistake upthread. Instead of recognizing your error, you have called me various forms of crazy. You call krypton iodine sulfur deluded. You cannot engage in honest discourse so you must instead resort to gaslighting and name calling.

What mistake did I make?

You made the mistake, Toni. You posed various questions to me as if they were implied by the statement 'transwomen don't menstruate'. These veiled accusations were absurd to the highest degree. They are unfair and malicious and utterly false.

Pre-emptive note: No doubt, in some thread in the future, you will accuse me of being a misogynist because I gaslight women. Hopefully your belief here, that I was trying to gaslight Jarhyn as well (which indicates I do not discriminate by sex when "gaslighting" people) will prevent you from making the accusation of misogynistic gaslighting in the future. Except I doubt it, because you've never admitted to any mistakes ever.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Toni, what you say here is...unhinged. How you go from what I wrote to 'women should be compelled to menstruate'....I can't even.

I think part of the issue is it isn't clear why you brought up menstruation in the first place. Yes, that is a difference between cisgender and transgender women, generally. That was never really in contention. It doesn't have any apparent impact on competitive advantage. So what point is it making?

The point is exactly as you say. Transwomen don't menstruate. That may or may not be a competitive advantage, but it's certainly a systemic difference.

Also, transwomen don't menstruate for one reason only: because transwomen don't have wombs. When women don't menstruate, there are a variety of different reasons.

It's a point no one is really contesting. No one's argument is contingent on the idea that transgender women menstruate. But the thing you have to remember about this is some sports are played using balls. Also, most humans have feet. This is not to forget that water sports happen in the water, or at least finish in the water in the case of diving.

Is that what this discussion is? Saying things which aren't really in dispute?

 

[Metaphor]

The point is exactly as you say. Transwomen don't menstruate. That may or may not be a competitive advantage, but it's certainly a systemic difference.

Also, transwomen don't menstruate for one reason only: because transwomen don't have wombs. When women don't menstruate, there are a variety of different reasons.

It's a point no one is really contesting. No one's argument is contingent on the idea that transgender women menstruate. But the thing you have to remember about this is some sports are played using balls. Also, most humans have feet. This is not to forget that water sports happen in the water, or at least finish in the water in the case of diving.

Is that what this discussion is? Saying things which aren't really in dispute?

First of all, I have pointed out many times that trans activists want participation in sport to be 'self ID' only, particularly in high school but also in general.

But for the trans activists that admit that men and women are different and that yes, transwomen are natal males and will have certain advantages, they want to say these advantages can be wholly eliminated.

Well, one advantage natal males may have is that they don't menstruate no matter what they do to their internal chemistry. I don't know if the question of menstruation has been studied, but if the capability of menstruating is a disadvantage, then it's a systemic disadvantage that transwomen do not have versus cis women.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Well, one advantage natal males may have is that they don't menstruate no matter what they do to their internal chemistry. I don't know if the question of menstruation has been studied, but if the capability of menstruating is a disadvantage, then it's a systemic disadvantage that transwomen do not have versus cis women.

Imagination is fun.

Question: do scientists you know ever express a desire to slap you?

 

[Metaphor]

Well, one advantage natal males may have is that they don't menstruate no matter what they do to their internal chemistry. I don't know if the question of menstruation has been studied, but if the capability of menstruating is a disadvantage, then it's a systemic disadvantage that transwomen do not have versus cis women.

Imagination is fun.

Question: do scientists you know ever express a desire to slap you?

No.

I had a drink thrown at me by a Canadian faggot in a bar in Coffs Harbour once, but he wasn't a scientist.

 

[Toni]

No, you are engaging in exactly the sort of behavior that abusers engage in: minimizing and denigrating the other person, calling them crazy or some other similar words in order to avoid engaging in honest conversation.

You made a mistake upthread. Instead of recognizing your error, you have called me various forms of crazy. You call krypton iodine sulfur deluded. You cannot engage in honest discourse so you must instead resort to gaslighting and name calling.

What mistake did I make?

You made the mistake, Toni. You posed various questions to me as if they were implied by the statement 'transwomen don't menstruate'. These veiled accusations were absurd to the highest degree. They are unfair and malicious and utterly false.

Pre-emptive note: No doubt, in some thread in the future, you will accuse me of being a misogynist because I gaslight women. Hopefully your belief here, that I was trying to gaslight Jarhyn as well (which indicates I do not discriminate by sex when "gaslighting" people) will prevent you from making the accusation of misogynistic gaslighting in the future. Except I doubt it, because you've never admitted to any mistakes ever.

Abusers don’t only abuse women.

 

[ruby sparks]

Hilarious. Pretty anti-men at times, but If a clearly exaggerated-for-comic-effect comedy sketch makes me laugh out loud, I’m ok with that. Sometimes it’s what humour is for and what is best about irreverent humour. And the anti-men thing aside (which I’m assuming is deliberately part of the schtick) she had lots of very funny observations and a few home truths.

 

[ruby sparks]

Just briefly on the menstruation thing, it could be said (by a pedant) that ‘people who menstruate’ is not a very good substitute for ‘women’, which in a way would make both the person who used the term AND J K Rowling, both wrong, I think, if I understand the original exchanges right.

 

[Metaphor]

No, you are engaging in exactly the sort of behavior that abusers engage in: minimizing and denigrating the other person, calling them crazy or some other similar words in order to avoid engaging in honest conversation.

You made a mistake upthread. Instead of recognizing your error, you have called me various forms of crazy. You call krypton iodine sulfur deluded. You cannot engage in honest discourse so you must instead resort to gaslighting and name calling.

What mistake did I make?

You made the mistake, Toni. You posed various questions to me as if they were implied by the statement 'transwomen don't menstruate'. These veiled accusations were absurd to the highest degree. They are unfair and malicious and utterly false.

Pre-emptive note: No doubt, in some thread in the future, you will accuse me of being a misogynist because I gaslight women. Hopefully your belief here, that I was trying to gaslight Jarhyn as well (which indicates I do not discriminate by sex when "gaslighting" people) will prevent you from making the accusation of misogynistic gaslighting in the future. Except I doubt it, because you've never admitted to any mistakes ever.

Abusers don’t only abuse women.

Gospa moja.

 

[Jarhyn]

You continually imagine this falsehood and trumpet it constantly. Non. I expect people to segregate themselves by sex in spaces that have been segregated by sex.




Non. This is a delusion you keep trumpeting. I have said on many occasions that the absence of a penis wouldn't make a man not a man.



A "betrayal". Good fucking lord, you are deluded. Humans can't change sex. If humans could, I would not call it a 'betrayal' to change sex, as if people had some fucking pre-existing obligation to remain a particular sex.



What is a man?

Note: do not use the word 'man' in your answer.

See the above: Once again, Metaphor must resort to implying that someone else is crazy or delusional and then goes on to insist that they respond in the manner that he dictates.

They are either delusional or deliberately lying. I have every right to protect myself from Jarhyn's continual false accusations. I have never said "a penis" is what makes a man nor have I ever demanded to know what is in people's pants, either directly or by implication. Jarhyn either believes I believe this (delusional) or he is lying about it.

As for responding in the manner I dictate, I will perhaps revise the above 'demand'.

What is a man?

Note: if you use the word 'man' in your answer, your definition will be circular and will not be a useful definition. You should follow the examples of lexicographers who must avoid this trap.

You have repeatedly made statements that only "born with a penis" can be man, as you have made repeated statements that "not born with a penis" is "not a man".

You have additionally said that everything that isn't the pe is (biochemically identical to a man) is insufficient for manhood.

You have made clear, here, that a penis is necessary for manhood, and that NOTHING else is sufficient.

You have made logically clear that penis is the fundamental necessary component of "man" for you.

That's on you.

What is a man? I don't fucking care. That's your hangup not mine. Justify your question!

before you can demand sex segregation continue, you must first justify sex segregation in the context as opposed to segregation not specifically on sex.

And a functional result of expecting "sex segregation in spaces segregated by sex" you are demanding to know what is in my pants, or tell others what is in my pants.

I can't tell you want "man" means. Nor can you tell me. You can't tell me any more than I could tell you because "man" is subjective. It's an arbitrary concept. It's a "Scotsman" and you are trying to say "no true man".

I can tell you "can impregnate a human" or "has menses", but that isn't man or woman. There is no list of "necessary and sufficient". You're the one who plays that game around penises and vaginas, not me. If you want to refer specifically to "people who menstruate" use that group descriptor. Because "man" subjective, it is useless for objective measures and uniform decision making.

It seems like you are struggling under the weight of your own worldview.