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Racism in society (or The Incredible Whiteness of Being) (or 50 Shades of Blackness)

An attitude shared by those who may have benefited from institutional racism.
AA is an instance of institutionalized racism. And I do not see how present day white high school seniors (and much less Asian ones) are in any way beneficiaries of institutionalized racism of over half a century ago. How much longer do you think programs like AA should continue to go on?
No. Poll taxes is a form of institutionalized racism (in the sense that it was trying to fuck with the blacks and keep them from being a viable part of the population). AA is an attempt to try to resolve a couple lost generations of racial progress due to Jim Crow (it attempts to offer an opportunity to one that may not have otherwise been given the opportunity... they still need to fulfill the obligation of succeeding).

I know it is so hard to see the difference between trying to fuck with a race verses trying to help a race that was historically fucked, but that's your problem.
 
Really? So an AA policy of making extra efforts to search for qualified candidates in protected classes is racist?

Pretty sure that's not what he was saying, but yes it would be.

If you make an extra effort to search for qualified candidates of one "group" but not make the same effort to find qualified candidates of other "groups"... and you do this based on race... that is certainly racist indeed.
 
What is racism?

Decisions made based on race rather than relevant factors.

By far the biggest example in the US is affirmative action.

Does history still effect the present?

Yes, culture carries through.

How long is long enough?

Zero years. Anti-racism efforts can't fix cultural issues that cause underperformance and thus should be dropped.

There are some actual discriminators out there, prosecute them. Only them, though--and statistics is *NOT* evidence of discrimination. You need to prove it with specific wrong decisions.

What is colorblindness?

Making decisions without looking at race at all.

If the system is broken, how do we fix it and should we?

1) Abolish AA. It's no longer a solution but rather a big part of the problem.

2) Abolish AA. So long as it exists it provides an excuse. It's always easier to blame outside forces than internal ones and thus providing a scapegoat interferes with actually solving the problem.

3) We need to provide schools that are restricted to those who want to learn. Get rid of the troublemakers--provide schools for them but realize that they're not going to accomplish much.

4) Give people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton honorary KKK memberships, they've done more to aid the KKKs cause than any KKKer.
 
What is racism?

Lately, something that has been turned on it's head. One particular group of Americans have been subject to institutional racism for centuries. Yet after only a couple decades and despite clearly still driving the bus, white folks now imagine themselves the victims of terrible injustice. Oh, the horror.


What is whiteness? blackness? ethnicity?

A few things that, thanks to history, a lot of people are unable to get past.

Does history still effect the present?

Yes, and in an odd way. There are millions of people still alive in this country who remember having to sit on a "coloreds only" park bench or go in the back door of a hotel, yet their struggle to be treated as equals has generated a backlash that we can read about right here in this thread. Oh, the terrible unfairness of being compelled to hire black people!


How long is long enough?

I'm going to go with "not 50 years." A half century ago, this nation passed a law which dragged certain states and counties (kicking and screaming in some cases) to guarantee that the rights of minorities to vote would no longer be institutionally impeded.

The nanosecond that parts of the Voting Rights Act were overturned by the Supreme Court, states practically fell over themselves in order to bring back restrictions on voting - under the bullshit premise of preventing "voter fraud." Yeah, we get it...voter fraud is when "those people" vote.

Is white supremacy still a thing?


As a movement? It is at a relative low point, though it has rebounded in recent years thanks to that guy with the funny name in the White House. There's still a remnant of the Klan out there, still plenty of White Nationalists around the fringes of society, and still a few "mainstream" politicians and public figures with one foot still in that ugly past.


As a practical matter? Yeah, whites are still supreme. If you want to hail a cab in New York City, not get shot by cops, or not get pulled over just about anywhere in America, it really helps to be white.


If the system is broken, how do we fix it and should we?



You're asking the big questions tonight, huh?


I think a lot of it has to do with just the passage of time. 50 years is not enough, obviously, but maybe at 75 years past 1964 enough of the people who battled in favor of racial segregation and discrimination will be dead enough that their grandchildren won't grasp why they should judge others based upon the color of their skin. Maybe it'll be an even 100 years. I hope it won't take that long.
 
Really? So an AA policy of making extra efforts to search for qualified candidates in protected classes is racist?

Pretty sure that's not what he was saying, but yes it would be.

If you make an extra effort to search for qualified candidates of one "group" but not make the same effort to find qualified candidates of other "groups"... and you do this based on race... that is certainly racist indeed.
Suppose it is easy to search for qualified candidates for one group but not others? Or suppose that historically, you only search for qualified candidates from one group but no others?
 
View attachment 1428

Reverse Racism
What they say:
“Blacks cry ‘racism’ for everything, even though they are more or just as racist as white people.”

Response:
Let’s first define racism with this formula: Racism = racial prejudice + systemic institutional power.
To say people of color can be racist, denies the power imbalance inherent in racism. Although some Black people dislike whites and act on that prejudice to insult or hurt them, that’s not the same as systematically oppressing them and negatively affecting every aspect of their lives.
People of color, as a social group, do not possess the societal, institutional power to oppress white people as a group. An individual Black person who is abusing a white person, while clearly wrong, is acting out a personal racial prejudice, not racism.

http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/02/10/7-things-color-blind-racist-friend-might-say-respond/2/
 
View attachment 1428

Reverse Racism
What they say:
“Blacks cry ‘racism’ for everything, even though they are more or just as racist as white people.”

Response:
Let’s first define racism with this formula: Racism = racial prejudice + systemic institutional power.
To say people of color can be racist, denies the power imbalance inherent in racism. Although some Black people dislike whites and act on that prejudice to insult or hurt them, that’s not the same as systematically oppressing them and negatively affecting every aspect of their lives.
People of color, as a social group, do not possess the societal, institutional power to oppress white people as a group. An individual Black person who is abusing a white person, while clearly wrong, is acting out a personal racial prejudice, not racism.

http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/02/10/7-things-color-blind-racist-friend-might-say-respond/2/

Based on this definition, an individual white person with no institutional power who is abusing a black person, while clearly wrong, is acting out a personal racial prejudice, not racism. Agreed?

If so, what function do you think changing the definitions of commonly used words accomplishes, other than to create confusion and make it harder to communicate, turning the conversation into a schematic game as opposed to having a productive conversation? The currently understood definition of the word as used in conversation throughout society the vast majority of the time is stereotyping and prejudice done by an individual based on presumed racial traits and also having such attitudes change behavior. If such attitudes and behaviors are institutionalized in the society, then the qualifier "institutional" is added to the term. The primary goal of communication should first and foremost to have your message comprehended in the manner intended, and anything that makes the message more likely to be misunderstood is something that the communicator can and should improve. Agreed?
 
Driven primarily by poorly evolved brains.

Technically speaking, all brains are equally evolved.

True. However, not everyone necessarily suffers from the poorly evolved traits (or suffers in equal amounts). As an example, the human back is poorly evolved for a bipedal species of our average height and weight, but not every member of the species suffers from chronic back pain.
 
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Second, if the current social and economic status of the families of those white high school seniors was improved in part by institutional racism, then they are beneficiaries of it.

Except that racism makes everyone worse off, not better.

White high school seniors, on average, are now worse off because of past racism against Blacks.

If Blacks had never been systematically discriminated against in America, the U.S. would be a far wealthier nation right now.
 
One thing I never understood about AA policies: if the pool of qualified students is larger than the number of slots available, why is the solution to bump one set of qualified students out so that some slightly less qualified students may have their place (as a remedy for past or present racial discrimination, or whatever)? Why isn't the solution instead to expand the overall number of slots until accepting one additional student is done based purely on lacking in qualifications alone? Is it impossible to increase the supply of high quality college education slots?
 
Second, if the current social and economic status of the families of those white high school seniors was improved in part by institutional racism, then they are beneficiaries of it.

Except that racism makes everyone worse off, not better.
That is untrue (see below). And it is not relevant, since AA addresses relative gains not absolute gains.


If Blacks had never been systematically discriminated against in America, the U.S. would be a far wealthier nation right now.
Most likely. But your conclusion that everyone would be better off in the absence of racism does not follow because it requires that everyone would share in that increased wealth.
 
Second, if the current social and economic status of the families of those white high school seniors was improved in part by institutional racism, then they are beneficiaries of it.

Except that racism makes everyone worse off, not better.

White high school seniors, on average, are now worse off because of past racism against Blacks.
So racism, in the form of segregation used to hold black people down was good for white high school seniors but integration is bad for white high school seniors?
If Blacks had never been systematically discriminated against in America, the U.S. would be a far wealthier nation right now.
How so? How do you think the US becomes wealthy, much less wealthier without the trans Atlantic Slave Trade, without Jim crow, without various immigration laws? I would love to see your take on this.
 
Except that racism makes everyone worse off, not better.
That is untrue (see below). And it is not relevant, since AA addresses relative gains not absolute gains.


If Blacks had never been systematically discriminated against in America, the U.S. would be a far wealthier nation right now.
Most likely. But your conclusion that everyone would be better off in the absence of racism does not follow because it requires that everyone would share in that increased wealth.

If the US federal gov't collected an additional $500 per capita in taxes anually, holding tax law constant, due to higher GDP per capita, do you think it likely that there would be widespread public benefit as a result of the additional funds?
 
Except that racism makes everyone worse off, not better.

White high school seniors, on average, are now worse off because of past racism against Blacks.
So racism, in the form of segregation used to hold black people down was good for white high school seniors but integration is bad for white high school seniors?
If Blacks had never been systematically discriminated against in America, the U.S. would be a far wealthier nation right now.
How so? How do you think the US becomes wealthy, much less wealthier without the trans Atlantic Slave Trade, without Jim crow, without various immigration laws? I would love to see your take on this.

By implementing labor productivity improvements via physical capital investment, human capital investment (education), employment in the most productive industries driven by wages, and plain old human motivation to be more productive when one is rewarded for being such. Slavery significantly held that back for the South, which was one contributing factor why the South has been poorer than the north for pretty much the entire history of the US, and, arguably, was the decisive factor in the North's victory in the civil war.
 
Except that racism makes everyone worse off, not better.

White high school seniors, on average, are now worse off because of past racism against Blacks.
So racism, in the form of segregation used to hold black people down was good for white high school seniors but integration is bad for white high school seniors?
What they mean is that racism hurt the nation as a whole. Granted, the white people still got all the opportunities, but those opportunities would have been a little better if there wasn't racism. Of course, some white people would have lost jobs to black people because they were less qualified, so it really is pretty ridiculous spin.
Second, if the current social and economic status of the families of those white high school seniors was improved in part by institutional racism, then they are beneficiaries of it.
Except that racism makes everyone worse off, not better.

White high school seniors, on average, are now worse off because of past racism against Blacks.
I'll take esoteric spin for $800 Alex.
 
So racism, in the form of segregation used to hold black people down was good for white high school seniors but integration is bad for white high school seniors?
What they mean is that racism hurt the nation as a whole. Granted, the white people still got all the opportunities, but those opportunities would have been a little better if there wasn't racism. Of course, some white people would have lost jobs to black people because they were less qualified, so it really is pretty ridiculous spin.
Second, if the current social and economic status of the families of those white high school seniors was improved in part by institutional racism, then they are beneficiaries of it.
Except that racism makes everyone worse off, not better.

White high school seniors, on average, are now worse off because of past racism against Blacks.
I'll take esoteric spin for $800 Alex.

And some whites lost farm and housekeeping jobs and other manual labor jobs due to slavery. They were made worse off as a result.

Also, the number of opportunities isn't fixed. If there are a larger number of qualified people, job opportunities tend to expand (though wages may fall some). To the extent that wages would fall in certain industries, white customers of the products of those industries were made worse off with higher prices.
 
What they mean is that racism hurt the nation as a whole. Granted, the white people still got all the opportunities, but those opportunities would have been a little better if there wasn't racism. Of course, some white people would have lost jobs to black people because they were less qualified, so it really is pretty ridiculous spin.
Second, if the current social and economic status of the families of those white high school seniors was improved in part by institutional racism, then they are beneficiaries of it.
Except that racism makes everyone worse off, not better.

White high school seniors, on average, are now worse off because of past racism against Blacks.
I'll take esoteric spin for $800 Alex.

And some whites lost farm and housekeeping jobs and other manual labor jobs due to slavery. They were made worse off as a result.
I know you did not just type that. Tell me did these white folk have their children sold from them, their wives raped, their husbands beaten? Or did they just not get the divine work opportunity of cleaning Miz Ann's floors and picking Mr. Charlie's cotton? FOR FREE!?
Also, the number of opportunities isn't fixed. If there are a larger number of qualified people, job opportunities tend to expand (though wages may fall some). To the extent that wages would fall in certain industries, white customers of the products of those industries were made worse off with higher prices.
 
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