Racism in society (or The Incredible Whiteness of Being) (or 50 Shades of Blackness)

[AthenaAwakened]

What is racism?

What is whiteness? blackness? ethnicity?

Does history still effect the present?

How long is long enough?

Who owns normalcy?

What is race?

What is colorblindness?

What are the differences between bigotry, prejudice, and racism?

Is white supremacy still a thing?

If the system is broken, how do we fix it and should we?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Racism is when blacks complain about racism, but ignore racism within their own ranks. Blacks can be racists too! And while that black racism can not be found indoctrinated in any legislation or be demonstrated to have prevented a single white person from doing anything... if you simply don't view it as being "just as bad", then you are being racist... you racist racist you!

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Mr. James Baldwin



Is he still relevant?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

"I was taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group"

Peggy McIntosh

Unpacking the Knapsack

 

[KeepTalking]

What is racism?

The belief that the qualities of a human being can be determined solely by their race.

What is whiteness?

Having a skin color that is not exactly white, but close enough as to be easily distinguishable from any of the darker races, and all the privileges that come with it.

blackness?

Having a skin color that is not exactly black, but close enough to be easily distinguishable from the whites above, with all of the disadvantages that come with it.

ethnicity?

Being an identifiable member of an ethic group

Does history still effect the present?

Yes.

How long is long enough?

Too long for some, for others there will never be long enough.

Who owns normalcy?

I do. I am the yardstick by which all others are judged. From my perspective, anyway.

What is race?

One step above ethnicity (there may be several ethnicities within a race).

What is colorblindness?

In this context, the ability to judge the quality of a person without appeal to their race, or ethnicity.

What are the differences between bigotry, prejudice, and racism?

Bigotry and prejudice need not be racially motivated, though they often are.

Is white supremacy still a thing?

You betcha.

If the system is broken, how do we fix it and should we?

If I knew how to fix it, I would be in the running for a Nobel Peace Prize. You can check the list, my name is not there. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try. One thing it takes, for sure, is time. But we have had a lot of time, and though some strides have been made in some places, overall we are still pretty far behind. I just try not to be racist myself, and try to correct anyone within my sphere of influence when I notice they are being that way. As a last resort I tend to ostracize those who I am unable to influence.

 

[Bronzeage]

Racism is when blacks complain about racism, but ignore racism within their own ranks. Blacks can be racists too! And while that black racism can not be found indoctrinated in any legislation or be demonstrated to have prevented a single white person from doing anything... if you simply don't view it as being "just as bad", then you are being racist... you racist racist you!

Racism is when whites complain about black racism without making an inventory of white racism. That's probably not really practical.

As for things denied to white people, but allowed to blacks, in past times, Louisiana State laws set a lower age of consent for black females than white females.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

You Don't Really Know Us, Chicago Kids Tell News Media

 

[doubtingt]

Racism is when blacks complain about racism, but ignore racism within their own ranks. Blacks can be racists too! And while that black racism can not be found indoctrinated in any legislation

Yes it can. Affirmative Action policies are racism indoctrinated into legislation under the assumption of using legislated racism to counter the historical impacts of prior legislated racism.

or be demonstrated to have prevented a single white person from doing anything...

Yes it can. Many thousands of white persons have been rejected from colleges as students and professors, and from many civil service jobs due to being white, which is exactly what the impact of AA policies does. You cannot admit/hire someone without rejecting someone else. If race is used as a factor in who is admitted/hired, then it was used as a factor to reject someone based on not being the "correct" race, which in the case of AA policies means white (and perhaps Asian within academics). In addition, there is clear evidence that blacks are at least as racist as whites and thus every bit of evidence for in-group bias implies that even without formal racist legislation like AA, decisions made by black decision makers in their hiring, etc. are just as impacted by their racism as the racism by whites. Every racist act harms someone. The difference lies in there being more whites in positions of being the decision makers. Thus, the probability of being harmed due to racism is greater among blacks. But for the specific whites that are and have been harmed by it, there is no difference because they don't give a shit if other members of their skin color category are less probable to be harmed, only that they themselves were.

if you simply don't view it as being "just as bad", then you are being racist... you racist racist you!

No, you are racist if you advocate or practice inferring things about individuals based upon their skin color or assumed racial category. How much power you have to harm others by doing this has no bearing on how big of a racist you are and how "bad" it is too be one. Such differences in power to harm via racism only speak to the quantity of harm your racism does to others, not how ethically "bad" it is to promote racism even if you have limited power to use it. A person with a knife who tries to stab someone is bad, and how deep the blade goes due to how long their arms are, doesn't impact how bad the stabber is, only how much damage is actually done.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

How does one redress past inequality and its residual effects in the present day without affirmative action?

 

[Jokodo]

<snip> In addition, there is clear evidence that blacks are at least as racist as whites<snip>

Could you quote some of that evidence? The last bit of data comparing blacks' and whites' racist attitudes I came across was when I looked at Gallup data about (dis)approval of miscegenation - by that measure, there's about four times as many racists among European Americans compared to African Americans, and there have consistently been at least twice as many white racists (proportionally) than black racists for decades.

decisions made by black decision makers in their hiring, etc. are just as impacted by their racism as the racism by whites. Every racist act harms someone. The difference lies in there being more whites in positions of being the decision makers. Thus, the probability of being harmed due to racism is greater among blacks.

No, that's not the only difference. Even if we accept your claim that "blacks are at least as racist as whites" (which I don't unless your provide evidence), and even if we assumed for the sake of the argument that there were proportionally as many blacks as whites in positions to make decisions, there's still the crude demographics. If one in three non-Hispanic White decision makers and one in three non-Hispanic Blacks is racist, and if decision makers were equally distributed among the races, Blacks would still have a chance of around 20% of being impeded by a racist white decision maker, with Whites only having a 4% chance of being impeded by a racist black decision maker.

But for the specific whites that are and have been harmed by it, there is no difference because they don't give a shit if other members of their skin color category are less probable to be harmed, only that they themselves were.

if you simply don't view it as being "just as bad", then you are being racist... you racist racist you!

No, you are racist if you advocate or practice inferring things about individuals based upon their skin color or assumed racial category. How much power you have to harm others by doing this has no bearing on how big of a racist you are and how "bad" it is too be one. Such differences in power to harm via racism only speak to the quantity of harm your racism does to others, not how ethically "bad" it is to promote racism even if you have limited power to use it. A person with a knife who tries to stab someone is bad, and how deep the blade goes due to how long their arms are, doesn't impact how bad the stabber is, only how much damage is actually done.

Depends if your primary goal is to prevent harm or to punish immoral behaviour. Also, most legal systems I've heard of do in fact differentiate between "murder" and "attempted murder".

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Research by Harvard Business School's Michael I. Norton and colleagues shows that attempting to overcome prejudice by ignoring race is an ineffective strategy that—in many cases—only serves to perpetuate bias.

 

[Axulus]

What is racism?

What is whiteness? blackness? ethnicity?

Does history still effect the present?

How long is long enough?

Who owns normalcy?

What is race?

What is colorblindness?

What are the differences between bigotry, prejudice, and racism?

Is white supremacy still a thing?

If the system is broken, how do we fix it and should we?

Some further questions:

Can false positive cases of racism have negative effects (someone believes they or someone else has been a victim of racism, when in fact race had nothing to do with it)? To what extent is presumed racism actually related to other factors, such as poverty and/or individual behavior (influenced by the environment one grows up in)?

Are negative stereotypes and bigotry based on race worse than stereotypes based on other factors (style of dress, city or neighborhood one lives in, one's parents, one's hobbies, one's profession, one's religion)? Why or why not?

To the extent that there is unconscious bias in the human psyche that can't be removed with education alone, what should be done to combat it? What if there are no effective solutions to eliminating such bias in all situations?

To what extent are societal consequences/risks of racism exaggerated and should anything be done to combat such exaggerated perceptions? Is it a problem when a black parent has fears that their son will be killed by the police or someone else who believes they are a criminal when they wear a hoodie, when in fact they are far more likely to be killed in a car accident or in gang related violence (whether they are involved or not)? One such negative is that overemphasis on smaller risks leads to more resources to be directed towards the risks that are smaller in comparison (meaning that more black youth die as a result of focusing on the smaller problems).

To what extent does presumed racist policies by the police lead police departments to reduce policing resources in minority neighborhoods and enacting less effective policing techniques to avoid the appearance of racism? If such policies result in higher crime rates than otherwise, the primary victims of which will be minorities who live in high crime neighborhoods, is this an acceptable tradeoff?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Myth 1: The only way to create a color-blind society is to adopt color-blind policies.
Although this statement sounds intuitively plausible, the reality is that color-blind policies often put racial minorities at a disadvantage. For instance, all else being equal, color-blind seniority systems tend to protect White workers against job layoffs, because senior employees are usually White (Ezorsky, 1991). Likewise, color-blind college admissions favor White students because of their earlier educational advantages. Unless preexisting inequities are corrected or otherwise taken into account, color-blind policies do not correct racial injustice -- they reinforce it.

http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm

 

[Derec]

Research by Harvard Business School's Michael I. Norton and colleagues shows that attempting to overcome prejudice by ignoring race is an ineffective strategy that—in many cases—only serves to perpetuate bias.

This seems to attack ridiculous PC overreaction where obvious physical differences are being purposely ignored as to avoid causing offense.
It doesn't seem to have anything to do with companies and other institutions treating people as individuals rather than as members of more or less arbitrarily defined groups.

 

[Derec]

Myth 1: The only way to create a color-blind society is to adopt color-blind policies.
Although this statement sounds intuitively plausible, the reality is that color-blind policies often put racial minorities at a disadvantage. For instance, all else being equal, color-blind seniority systems tend to protect White workers against job layoffs, because senior employees are usually White (Ezorsky, 1991). Likewise, color-blind college admissions favor White students because of their earlier educational advantages. Unless preexisting inequities are corrected or otherwise taken into account, color-blind policies do not correct racial injustice -- they reinforce it.

http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm

That is a biased article by a group that in in favor of discriminating based on race to achieve certain results.
Who cares if innocent individuals are harmed as long as certain groups are "helped"? However, if certain applicants are not as well qualified (due either to innate aptitude or educational preparation) they will not do as well as those that weren't beneficiaries of racial discrimination in admissions. So not only are rejected white or Asian applicants harmed in the process, the admitted black or Hispanic ones probably are too.
The solution is not to discriminate by race but to word toward making schools in disadvantaged areas better.

 

[laughing dog]

Yes it can. Affirmative Action policies are racism indoctrinated into legislation under the assumption of using legislated racism to counter the historical impacts of prior legislated racism.

Really? So an AA policy of making extra efforts to search for qualified candidates in protected classes is racist?

 

[laughing dog]

Who cares if innocent individuals are harmed as long as certain groups are "helped"?...

An attitude shared by those who may have benefited from institutional racism.

 

[Derec]

An attitude shared by those who may have benefited from institutional racism.

AA is an instance of institutionalized racism. And I do not see how present day white high school seniors (and much less Asian ones) are in any way beneficiaries of institutionalized racism of over half a century ago. How much longer do you think programs like AA should continue to go on?

 

[Trausti]

An attitude shared by those who may have benefited from institutional racism.

AA is an instance of institutionalized racism. And I do not see how present day white high school seniors (and much less Asian ones) are in any way beneficiaries of institutionalized racism of over half a century ago. How much longer do you think programs like AA should continue to go on?

The original sin of being born white can never be atoned, so the prelates of AA will presumably demand it go on indefinitely.

 

[laughing dog]

An attitude shared by those who may have benefited from institutional racism.

AA is an instance of institutionalized racism.

You introduce a fact not in evidence.

And I do not see how present day white high school seniors (and much less Asian ones) are in any way beneficiaries of institutionalized racism of over half a century ago.

First it is debatable whether institutional racism is gone. Second, if the current social and economic status of the families of those white high school seniors was improved in part by institutional racism, then they are beneficiaries of it.

How much longer do you think programs like AA should continue to go on?

Until a consensus is reached that they are no longer needed.