RussiaGate

[barbos]

No, that would be news from the EU:
EU charges Gazprom with market abuse

2015 and it went nowhere.

Russia is a legal successor of USSR, and you have never explained your actions of paying terrorists to kill Russians.

You might want to read up on the Cold War, it was not all balloons and kittens. Also, it is supposed to be over, too bad Putin never got the memo.

Here is a news for you, Cold War never stopped, US refused to stop it.

Then he will switch to BLM and COVID-19 response

By all accounts, the COVID-19 response in Russia (or is the new USSR?) is nearly as bad, so that won't get him anywhere. Not that it has anything to do with the topic at hand.

Really?

Really:
How Russias Coronavirus Crisis Got So Bad
WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) Dashboard - The dark blue countries are those that have had the worst response to the pandemic.

Nobody says it was great, but not even close to what US has. Putin&Co don't go to national TV and attack mask wearing.

It does appear that since June, Russia is improving, despite a response that was nearly as poor as the US response. How much of that is due to the control of data from the Russian government is anyone's guess. Now that the White House has control of US data, expect it to improve remarkably as well. I am sure that is one of the things Trump learned from Putin in his monthly 1-on-1's with his boss.

Russia is not China, you can't suppress data on such a scale in Russia.

 

[Copernicus]

By calling Russia the "legal successor of the USSR", barbos admits what we all know to be true--that the Soviet Union was nothing more than a continuation of the tsarist Russian Empire, where ethnic Russians dominated every other ethnic group that they could conquer. There is nothing "legal" about that, since the populations of the conquered peoples and countries did not agree to the arrangement. Putin, as barbos has described him, is viewed by many Russians as a "benevolent tsar". Putin sees himself as the sovereign in control of the empire, and he wants to expand it. We have seen that most recently in his sending of Russian-controlled mercenaries to meddle in Belarus. (See Russia and Belarus at odds over arrest of suspected mercenaries) Putin's fan club has shrunk considerably in the past few years, especially after he ran away from taking responsibility for his botched handling of the pandemic. Nevertheless, he has taken on the burden of having himself coronated as essentially President for Life. IOW, de facto dictator of the Russian Empire. He will keep his country stuck in this cold war mentality until he somehow falls from power.

The next President of the US will have to clean up Donald Trump's mess, and Russia will then become more of a focus of attention than it is now. Putin's puppet will no longer be installed in power and able to run interference for him. We saw how well that played out with Yanukovych in Ukraine, where the Russian-backed quisling was sent packing by a popular uprising. Trump's demise will be somewhat less messy, although I wouldn't mind seeing him move into exile in Russia. Maybe he could share dachas with Edward Snowden.

Putin was an utter fool to engage in his scheme of meddling in the 2016 election. He had a spectacular success and was able to celebrate every day since then. But where did he think this was going to end up? Did he think he could pull off the same trick again? Our presidents only last for four years, and then they can only get reelected once. So any victory of that sort was never going to be permanent. A day of reckoning was always going to come, and that day will be much harder on Russia, the US, and the rest of the world than it needed to be. Trump is a bona fide moron, and Putin is a fairly competent administrator. But he is no strategic genius. Now he must realize that Trump's demise is not going to go well for him. A lot of Americans are going to be calling for payback, and there are few Putin defenders in the government other than the Trump cabal.

 

[barbos]

Copernicus and his unstoppable stream of ideas again.
I merely meant that Russian Federation is by international law a legal successor of USSR. Russia inherited all the debt, foreign property and treaties of the USSR, also nukes. Former Republics got none of that.

Also, stop projecting, virtually all republics in USSR (and Eastern Europe allies too) had it better than Russians, that's basically how it worked.

 

[Copernicus]

Copernicus and his unstoppable stream of ideas again.
I merely meant that Russian Federation is by international law a legal successor of USSR. Russia inherited all the debt, foreign property and treaties of the USSR, also nukes. Former Republics got none of that.

Also, stop projecting, virtually all republics in USSR (and Eastern Europe allies too) had it better than Russians, that's basically how it worked.

It is typical that you would like to rewrite history, but the fact is that Ukraine held a third of the Soviet nuclear arsenal when the Soviet Union collapsed. It voluntarily agreed to destroy and relinquish all of that in return for guarantees in the Budapest Memorandum, which the Russian government signed. Is this the "legality" that you were referring to? I only ask, because the very first article in that agreement was:

"1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine."

So, give back Ukraine's territory. Then we'll talk about Russia being a "legal successor" to those weapons.

As for your ridiculous assertion that "virtually all republics in USSR (and Eastern Europe allies too) had it better than Russians, that's basically how it worked", you are utterly out of touch with the reality of what the relationship between Russia and all of the subjugated internal and satellite states was. It's no secret that the Soviet military occupied and dominated those territories. Poland, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia all had popular uprisings that attempted to loosen the yoke. When Gorbachev finally agreed to tear down the wall that was built to keep East Germans from escaping to the West, there was universal joy and celebration. (Well, maybe not in the offices of the KGB in Eastern Germany, where Putin had spent years as a counterintelligence officer.)

 

[barbos]

Copernicus and his unstoppable stream of ideas again.
I merely meant that Russian Federation is by international law a legal successor of USSR. Russia inherited all the debt, foreign property and treaties of the USSR, also nukes. Former Republics got none of that.

Also, stop projecting, virtually all republics in USSR (and Eastern Europe allies too) had it better than Russians, that's basically how it worked.

It is typical that you would like to rewrite history, but the fact is that Ukraine held a third of the Soviet nuclear arsenal when the Soviet Union collapsed. It voluntarily agreed to destroy and relinquish all of that in return for guarantees in the Budapest Memorandum, which the Russian government signed. Is this the "legality" that you were referring to? I only ask, because the very first article in that agreement was:

"1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine."

So, give back Ukraine's territory. Then we'll talk about Russia being a "legal successor" to those weapons.

As for your ridiculous assertion that "virtually all republics in USSR (and Eastern Europe allies too) had it better than Russians, that's basically how it worked", you are utterly out of touch with the reality of what the relationship between Russia and all of the subjugated internal and satellite states was. It's no secret that the Soviet military occupied and dominated those territories. Poland, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia all had popular uprisings that attempted to loosen the yoke. When Gorbachev finally agreed to tear down the wall that was built to keep East Germans from escaping to the West, there was universal joy and celebration. (Well, maybe not in the offices of the KGB in Eastern Germany, where Putin had spent years as a counterintelligence officer.)

Rewrite history?
Russia is a legal successor of USRR regardless of anything, that's just legal and historical fact. And USA lost Crimea because they broke their promise not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe. Russia did not want Ukrainian nukes, It was USA/Europe who forced them to send nukes to Russia.
Now about Eastern Europe and Soviet Republic. Nobody denies that they had these revolts, and we have been over this many times. I merely commented on your projected idea about Russia (and Russians) subjugating other ethnicities, like some kind of colonialism you are very familiar with. That's bullcrap and not how communism operated. Russian Federation was a donor for the rest of USSR and USSR was a donor for Warsaw Pact countries. That was the only way to kept it from dissolving.

 

[KeepTalking]

2015 and it went nowhere.

You are insufferable.

We were talking about the sanctions against Gazprom. When do you think those sanctions were put into place?

If they occurred around or before the time that article was written (they did), then the article is relevant.

Why should I rely on your characterization that it "went nowhere"?

Once again, you fail to provide any evidence for your assertion. It seems to me that it went somewhere, and that somewhere has been extending those sanctions every 6 months since then.

You might want to read up on the Cold War, it was not all balloons and kittens. Also, it is supposed to be over, too bad Putin never got the memo.

Here is a news for you, Cold War never stopped, US refused to stop it.

You are incorrect. The Cold War ended in 1991 with the dissolution of the USSR:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War

That Putin is attempting to revive the USSR, and with it the Cold War, might be a topic for debate, but that probably deserves a thread of its own.

Then he will switch to BLM and COVID-19 response

By all accounts, the COVID-19 response in Russia (or is the new USSR?) is nearly as bad, so that won't get him anywhere. Not that it has anything to do with the topic at hand.

Really?

Really:
How Russias Coronavirus Crisis Got So Bad
WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) Dashboard - The dark blue countries are those that have had the worst response to the pandemic.

Nobody says it was great, but not even close to what US has. Putin&Co don't go to national TV and attack mask wearing.

That is why I said "nearly as bad" and not "exactly as bad". The fact that Russia is one of the worst countries when it comes to their pandemic response (as shown by the above dashboard) puts it firmly in that "nearly as bad" range.

It does appear that since June, Russia is improving, despite a response that was nearly as poor as the US response. How much of that is due to the control of data from the Russian government is anyone's guess. Now that the White House has control of US data, expect it to improve remarkably as well. I am sure that is one of the things Trump learned from Putin in his monthly 1-on-1's with his boss.

Russia is not China, you can't suppress data on such a scale in Russia.

 

[barbos]

You are insufferable.

We were talking about the sanctions against Gazprom. When do you think those sanctions were put into place?

There are no EU sanctions against Gazprom. There are US sanctions against Gazprom.
So it's you who is insufferable.

If they occurred around or before the time that article was written (they did), then the article is relevant.

Why should I rely on your characterization that it "went nowhere"?

Why should I rely on your characterization that it "went somewhere"?

Once again, you fail to provide any evidence for your assertion. It seems to me that it went somewhere, and that somewhere has been extending those sanctions every 6 months since then.

Nope, it went nowhere.

Here is a news for you, Cold War never stopped, US refused to stop it.

You are incorrect. The Cold War ended in 1991 with the dissolution of the USSR:

OK, go and tell it to the State Department.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War

That Putin is attempting to revive the USSR, and with it the Cold War, might be a topic for debate, but that probably deserves a thread of its own.

Says who? Oh, right, the same people who say Cold War is no more.....

Then he will switch to BLM and COVID-19 response

By all accounts, the COVID-19 response in Russia (or is the new USSR?) is nearly as bad, so that won't get him anywhere. Not that it has anything to do with the topic at hand.

Really?

Really:
How Russias Coronavirus Crisis Got So Bad
WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) Dashboard - The dark blue countries are those that have had the worst response to the pandemic.

Nobody says it was great, but not even close to what US has. Putin&Co don't go to national TV and attack mask wearing.

That is why I said "nearly as bad" and not "exactly as bad". The fact that Russia is one of the worst countries when it comes to their pandemic response (as shown by the above dashboard) puts it firmly in that "nearly as bad" range.

It does appear that since June, Russia is improving, despite a response that was nearly as poor as the US response. How much of that is due to the control of data from the Russian government is anyone's guess. Now that the White House has control of US data, expect it to improve remarkably as well. I am sure that is one of the things Trump learned from Putin in his monthly 1-on-1's with his boss.

Russia is not China, you can't suppress data on such a scale in Russia.

Russia has 5 times lower death rate and number of infections and number of infection rate is slowly going down. Putin was wearing full hazmat suit. And you say nearly as bad?


Really, Russia is not China. Facebook,Google,Youtube are not banned. There are no Great Firewall of Russia. WHO does not think that Putin makes up statistics.

 

[Elixir]

Really, Russia is not China.

Aw, poor baby. Maybe a little blame sharing will make you feel better:

 

[KeepTalking]

There are no EU sanctions against Gazprom. There are US sanctions against Gazprom.

In case you have forgotten how this started out, it was your bringing up US sanctions, so US sanctions are what we are talking about.

Why should I rely on your characterization that it "went somewhere"?

US Sanctions on Gazprom are still there, which is what you said Putin would ask about.

The EU may not have directly sanctioned Gazprom by name, but the sanctions they enacted around that time (and that are still in force) do include Gazprom:
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=38813f89-703a-4059-98e8-76714c706c61

The companies targeted by EU measures are: Rosneft, Transneft and Gazprom Neft.

The EU allegations against Gazprom clearly went somewhere, and are still there.

Here is a news for you, Cold War never stopped, US refused to stop it.

You are incorrect. The Cold War ended in 1991 with the dissolution of the USSR:

OK, go and tell it to the State Department.

No. I am telling to you, as you are the one who denies the fact.

 

[barbos]

In case you have forgotten how this started out, it was your bringing up US sanctions, so US sanctions are what we are talking about.

No, it started with you trying to legitimize illegal sanctions by bringing up EU, but there are no EU sanctions on Gazprom, the only sanctions they are thinking about are on US for imposing sanctions on EU for buying gas from Russia

US Sanctions on Gazprom are still there, which is what you said Putin would ask about.

Yes, that's why I brought it up. US frackers went to Congress and said, we need to sell our expensive gas to Europe, jobs, jobs, jobs! do something about it! and since russians don't vote in american elections, congress voted for illegal sanctions in no time.

The EU may not have directly sanctioned Gazprom by name, but the sanctions they enacted around that time (and that are still in force) do include Gazprom:
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=38813f89-703a-4059-98e8-76714c706c61

The companies targeted by EU measures are: Rosneft, Transneft and Gazprom Neft.

The EU allegations against Gazprom clearly went somewhere, and are still there.

Nope, there are no EU sanctions on Gazprom.

Here is a news for you, Cold War never stopped, US refused to stop it.

You are incorrect. The Cold War ended in 1991 with the dissolution of the USSR:

OK, go and tell it to the State Department.

No. I am telling to you, as you are the one who denies the fact.

State Department is the one denying your "fact"

 

[KeepTalking]

No, it started with you trying to legitimize illegal sanctions by bringing up EU, but there are no EU sanctions on Gazprom, the only sanctions they are thinking about are on US for imposing sanctions on EU for buying gas from Russia

Yes, that's why I brought it up. US frackers went to Congress and said, we need to sell our expensive gas to Europe, jobs, jobs, jobs! do something about it! and since russians don't vote in american elections, congress voted for illegal sanctions in no time.

You can't even be honest about your own involvement in this thread, when the history is in black and white for everyone to see and trace through. Why would anyone expect you to be honest about anything else, especially when you refuse to provide any evidence of anything you claim.

I am done here.

 

[barbos]

No, it started with you trying to legitimize illegal sanctions by bringing up EU, but there are no EU sanctions on Gazprom, the only sanctions they are thinking about are on US for imposing sanctions on EU for buying gas from Russia

Yes, that's why I brought it up. US frackers went to Congress and said, we need to sell our expensive gas to Europe, jobs, jobs, jobs! do something about it! and since russians don't vote in american elections, congress voted for illegal sanctions in no time.

You can't even be honest about your own involvement in this thread, when the history is in black and white for everyone to see and trace through. Why would anyone expect you to be honest about anything else, especially when you refuse to provide any evidence of anything you claim.

I am done here.

It's you who is dishonest. What I said was a simple indisputable fact, but you tried to dispute it and failed miserably.

 

[barbos]

Ted Cruz and couple of other corrupted assholes from US Senate have been busy sending threatening letters to German companies.
Apparently some German company was found guilty of selling food to russians in the sea who were working on finishing gas pipe Cruz and his gang of two threatened to destroy that german company.
Of course you would not hear about it in US, cause US media is owned by the same people who own these senators.

 

[JohnG]

Ted Cruz and couple of other corrupted assholes from US Senate have been busy sending threatening letters to German companies.
Apparently some German company was found guilty of selling food to russians in the sea who were working on finishing gas pipe Cruz and his gang of two threatened to destroy that german company.
Of course you would not hear about it in US, cause US media is owned by the same people who own these senators.

Just read the Washington Post article on it. Several other US news outlets reporting on it.

 

[barbos]

Ted Cruz and couple of other corrupted assholes from US Senate have been busy sending threatening letters to German companies.
Apparently some German company was found guilty of selling food to russians in the sea who were working on finishing gas pipe Cruz and his gang of two threatened to destroy that german company.
Of course you would not hear about it in US, cause US media is owned by the same people who own these senators.

Just read the Washington Post article on it. Several other US news outlets reporting on it.

Were they negative about it? Were they bitching about it nonstop the way they bitch about Trump?
Did they interview any starving russian gas pipe worker? their starving families?


https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...a788-2ce86ce81129_story.html#comments-wrapper

WP is not negative, but comment sections is:

Imagine some German MPs would write such a letter to some town/company in the US: "We don't like what you're doing in Austin and it will have dire consequences if you don't stop at once!"

What? Excuse me? How dare you!

The sheer arrogance of Ted Cruz and consorts to think they have any say in what goes on in some place in Germany is unsurpassed. Last I checked, Sassnitz was not part of Texas and Germany not the 51st State of the US.

They can't manage their own covid disaster but think they are somehow entitled to interfere in the business of a foreign city/company?

In Germany, Americans (particularly the ones from Texas with their ludicrous hats) have a reputation for being bigheaded, loud and overbearing.

Letters like this do not help to quell such prejudice.

It is astonishing with what self-righteousness and aggression the USA proceeds here. It is not about Russia and also not about the alleged dependence of Germany on Russian gas, but only about American economic interests. This is done by senators who are very closely connected to the oil and gas industry. As you read, the USA bought gas from Russia for many billions of dollars in 2019. But of course that is something completely different.
It's sad how things are at the moment between our nations, when we should be friends and allies. Please let us all remember that things are more complex than we would all like them to be. At some point the US will push it too far and the EU will also push itself to impose sanctions. Nobody will gain anything from this.

This is an economic declaration of war by the United States against the EU and Germany. It is not a question of whether this pipeline is good or not - that is an intra-European question about which one can of course disagree - but whether the EU lets itself be treated as a vassal by the USA or whether it uses its united political and economic power to oppose this aggression of the USA. If the EU does not take a decisive stand here, then it makes no sense.
As a countermeasure, it would be conceivable as a first step to ban entry into the EU of involved US politicians and, if necessary, freeze their assets. The next step is to ban the import of US energy products.

 

[KeepTalking]

Were they negative about it? Were they bitching about it nonstop the way they bitch about Trump?
Did they interview any starving russian gas pipe worker? their starving families?


https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...a788-2ce86ce81129_story.html#comments-wrapper

WP is not negative, but comment sections is:

Imagine some German MPs would write such a letter to some town/company in the US: "We don't like what you're doing in Austin and it will have dire consequences if you don't stop at once!"

What? Excuse me? How dare you!

The sheer arrogance of Ted Cruz and consorts to think they have any say in what goes on in some place in Germany is unsurpassed. Last I checked, Sassnitz was not part of Texas and Germany not the 51st State of the US.

They can't manage their own covid disaster but think they are somehow entitled to interfere in the business of a foreign city/company?

In Germany, Americans (particularly the ones from Texas with their ludicrous hats) have a reputation for being bigheaded, loud and overbearing.

Letters like this do not help to quell such prejudice.

It is astonishing with what self-righteousness and aggression the USA proceeds here. It is not about Russia and also not about the alleged dependence of Germany on Russian gas, but only about American economic interests. This is done by senators who are very closely connected to the oil and gas industry. As you read, the USA bought gas from Russia for many billions of dollars in 2019. But of course that is something completely different.
It's sad how things are at the moment between our nations, when we should be friends and allies. Please let us all remember that things are more complex than we would all like them to be. At some point the US will push it too far and the EU will also push itself to impose sanctions. Nobody will gain anything from this.

This is an economic declaration of war by the United States against the EU and Germany. It is not a question of whether this pipeline is good or not - that is an intra-European question about which one can of course disagree - but whether the EU lets itself be treated as a vassal by the USA or whether it uses its united political and economic power to oppose this aggression of the USA. If the EU does not take a decisive stand here, then it makes no sense.
As a countermeasure, it would be conceivable as a first step to ban entry into the EU of involved US politicians and, if necessary, freeze their assets. The next step is to ban the import of US energy products.

Uh, everyone in the US knows that Ted Cruz is an evil, ignorant asshole. No one here is going to defend him (OK, maybe one or two of the usual suspects). His sending this letter means two things, fuck and all. It is not, nor will it become US policy. His party, and hopefully Ted Cruz himself, are on the way out. Texas actually appears to be in play this cycle, and Ted Cruz is a big part of the reason why.

 

[barbos]

Bundestag head of energy and economy committee suggested imposing tariffs on US gas and calling US ambassador and showing that letter up his ass.

OK, I made up part about ass, but I am, pretty sure he was thinking that.

 

[barbos]

Uh, everyone in the US knows that Ted Cruz is an evil, ignorant asshole. No one here is going to defend him (OK, maybe one or two of the usual suspects).

He won reelection.

His sending this letter means two things, fuck and all. It is not, nor will it become US policy.

I would not be so sure because it IS already a US policy. Gazprom was forced to finish the construction without using western companies because of illegal US sanctions which were voted in.

His party, and hopefully Ted Cruz himself, are on the way out.

Democrats were more than happy to vote with republicans on previous sanctions.
US fracking lobby pays both, democrats and republicans to illegally harass EU companies which work with Gazprom.
And US media is not having a field day with it. America uber alles!

 

[KeepTalking]

He won reelection.

He is still just a senator, and he is still an evil ignorant asshole, just like his buddies Tom Cotton and Ron Johnson. They truly are 3 of the worst examples of humanity currently inhabiting the Senate chambers.

I would not be so sure because it IS already a US policy. Gazprom was forced to finish the construction without using western companies because of illegal US sanctions which were voted in.

And all of this happened since those fuckwits sent that letter on Wednesday, August 5th, 2020? That would have to be a record for legislation in the Senate.

His party, and hopefully Ted Cruz himself, are on the way out.

Democrats were more than happy to vote with republicans on previous sanctions.
US fracking lobby pays both, democrats and republicans to illegally harass EU companies which work with Gazprom.
And US media is not having a field day with it. America uber alles!

Illegal harassment? I think you have a ways to go before that is proven. I am also willing to bet that absolutely nothing will happen if this letter is ignored. But, if it is as you say, and the work is already completed, then this letter was worthless to begin with, having come entirely too late to stop the construction. What would our media have a field day with?

"Breaking News: Ted Cruz does something stupid that doesn't matter, film at 11..."

 

[barbos]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream#Legal_aspects

Businesses involved in Nord Stream 2 have been sanctioned by the United States, which has been seeking to sell more of its own liquefied natural gas (LNG) to EU states,[60] with the passing of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2020 on December 20, 2019.[189] German Finance Minister Olaf Scholz called the sanctions "a severe intervention in German and European internal affairs", while the EU spokesman criticized "the imposition of sanctions against EU companies conducting legitimate business."[190] German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas tweeted that "European energy policy is decided in Europe, not in the United States". Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov also criticized sanctions, saying that U.S. Congress "is literally overwhelmed with the desire to do everything to destroy" the Russia–United States relations.[191] The German Eastern Business Association (OAOEV) said in a statement: "America wants to sell its liquefied gas in Europe, for which Germany is building terminals. Should we arrive at the conclusion that US sanctions are intended to push competitors out of the European market, our enthusiasm for bilateral projects with the US will significantly cool."

Democrats voted for these illegal sanctions too, in 2019. And work stopped even before that, because of other threatening letters.