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Violent riots underway in Kenosha, WI

If citizens are permitted to disobey, in even the tiniest way, orders given by the uniformed representatives of the government; or if their disobedience is not immediately met with lethal force, for which the police are rarely held accountable, then do you really have any freedom at all?

Summary executions by the authorities, on mere suspicion of even lawful disobedience, are the cornerstone of our freedom.

Apparently.
 
bilby said:
Summary executions by the authorities, on mere suspicion of even lawful disobedience, are the cornerstone of our freedom.
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Again and again in these discussions shooting a suspect because of (perceived) threat are confused with a "summary execution", which is a very different thing. It is rather disingenuous.
 
Jarhyn said:
I mean shit, we have videos of Karens calling cops on black people for existing while black... And the black people getting shot for it. We have a video of a conservative Christian telling a cop a girl attacked her and the cop attacking the girl when the cop was there to see the girl not attacking him.
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Police get called all the goddamn time on people who are doing fuck all, and too often, someone ends up dead as a result.
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I agree that there are too many police shootings. But in this case at least, the shootee could have easily prevented getting shot by
a) not struggling with police in the first place
b) not going for his car

Jacob Blake brought this upon himself. He does not deserve the hero status he is getting among activists and the media, nor the millions of dollars he will inevitably get out of all this.
 
laughing dog said:
Derec said:
Police were called because somebody was alarmed enough to call them. If it was an innocuous as you portray it here, police would not be there.
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Nonsense. All someone has to say is "I think I see weapon" and the police show up.
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Police are not Beetlejuice. You can't just say "police" three times. You have to call 911.
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Hell, where I live, I have had police show up because someone reported something suspicious because I was sitting in the front yard with my dog.
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I can see you being suspicious on general principle, so probably not the best example.
 
Arctish said:
I don't know who the 'they' are in the article you linked, but apparently 'they' are not the Kenosha cops, the state investigators, or the Wisconsin Attorney General. I can't find any authoritative source for the story that Blake had a knife.
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I did not say there was anything official. Yet. Hence the freeze frame analysis.

As for what I think it might be in that photograph, something durable I suppose. If I just saw that picture with no backstory, I would guess those were his sunglasses.
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Interesting possibility.

If it is a knife, I'm surprised the Kenosha PD hasn't mentioned it. You'd think they would say the guy was armed, what with the rioting and all.
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Do you really think it would help?

In any case, we should hold all opinions as tentative until the investigation is complete. And, of course, all rioters, looters and arsonists should be arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
 
laughing dog said:
You do realize the defense of "it could happen" justifies any killing of anyone.
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No it does not. Of course almost anything could happen.
This is different. We have a guy struggling with police and after breaking free he immediately and deliberately moves toward the driver side door. That is far more than mere "could happen". It is a clear and present danger.
 
ruby sparks said:
But you'd think someone could come up with something maybe. Something like the web thing Spiderman used to fire from his wrists to incapacitate and subdue without causing harm, as I recall. I even think there are such devices. Perhaps they are not reliable enough yet.

Rubber bullets? Lassoos?
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The thing is that it has to be reliably incapacitating while being reasonably safe. I do not think we have such a technology, although tasers are an attempt at such a device.

We are stuck with bad options until this is invented:
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It's nice to see that despite being in a pandemic sports are still a thing. Like the fucking gymnastics required to justify emptying half a clip into an unarmed citizen. Especially when the situation practically screamed "Cover. Observe. Act". Something the officers did not do.

But Justine Damond is the only wrongful death that has occurred in the history of US Law Enforcement, right Derec?.
 
Patooka said:
It's nice to see that despite being in a pandemic sports are still a thing. Like the fucking gymnastics required to justify emptying half a clip into an unarmed citizen. Especially when the situation practically screamed "Cover. Observe. Act". Something the officers did not do.
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What is this "Cover. Observe. Act" business? Is it anything like "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome"?

Anyway, and for the millionth time probably, just because he may (or may not) have been unarmed at that instant does not mean he wasn't about to arm himself.
See Daniel Clary. He too was unarmed. Until he wasn't.

But Justine Damond is the only wrongful death that has occurred in the history of US Law Enforcement, right Derec?.
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No, she wasn't. There was, let's see, Walter Scott. Jordan Edwards. Anthony Hill probably, although it wasn't murder but manslaughter. Same goes for George Floyd. Probably some others too, but these come to mind immediately. However, vast majority of police shootings in the US are justified, regardless of race.

Media is only interested in police shootings when it's a black guy, and are intent into making him into a hero no matter the facts.
 
Derec said:
Patooka said:
It's nice to see that despite being in a pandemic sports are still a thing. Like the fucking gymnastics required to justify emptying half a clip into an unarmed citizen. Especially when the situation practically screamed "Cover. Observe. Act". Something the officers did not do.
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What is this "Cover. Observe. Act" business? Is it anything like "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome"?

Anyway, and for the millionth time probably, just because he may (or may not) have been unarmed at that instant does not mean he wasn't about to arm himself.
See Daniel Clary. He too was unarmed. Until he wasn't.

But Justine Damond is the only wrongful death that has occurred in the history of US Law Enforcement, right Derec?.
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No, she wasn't. There was, let's see, Walter Scott. Jordan Edwards. Anthony Hill probably, although it wasn't murder but manslaughter. Same goes for George Floyd. Probably some others too, but these come to mind immediately. However, vast majority of police shootings in the US are justified, regardless of race.

Media is only interested in police shootings when it's a black guy, and are intent into making him into a hero no matter the facts.
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You might want to look at some training seminars for law enforcement officers around the world. Cover. Observe. Act. is something most cops in sensible countries are trained to do. Do you believe cops should take courses from a killology seminar? Is that your yardstick for training?
 
Derec said:
Jacob Blake brought this upon himself. He does not deserve the hero status he is getting among activists and the media, nor the millions of dollars he will inevitably get out of all this.
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You are the one giving him hero status.

You have elevated Blake to the level of hero so you can mock people who hold him up as some kind of hero.

The self-ownage is ridiculous. I would call it incredible but you've done it before so I have to accept that it happens.

Derec said:
Arctish said:
I don't know who the 'they' are in the article you linked, but apparently 'they' are not the Kenosha cops, the state investigators, or the Wisconsin Attorney General. I can't find any authoritative source for the story that Blake had a knife.
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I did not say there was anything official. Yet. Hence the freeze frame analysis.

As for what I think it might be in that photograph, something durable I suppose. If I just saw that picture with no backstory, I would guess those were his sunglasses.
Click to expand...
Interesting possibility.
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I saw ruby's post after I posted my thoughts, and I think he may be right. The thing in Blake's hand looks like a modern car key with a transponder.

If it is a knife, I'm surprised the Kenosha PD hasn't mentioned it. You'd think they would say the guy was armed, what with the rioting and all.
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Do you really think it would help?
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Of course it would help.

It wouldn't make the issue of excessive use of force by the police go away. It wouldn't have caused Blake to lose his Constitutional rights. But it would at least lend credibility to the idea that he posed a threat.
 
Derec said:
bilby said:
Summary executions by the authorities, on mere suspicion of even lawful disobedience, are the cornerstone of our freedom.
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Again and again in these discussions shooting a suspect because of (perceived) threat are confused with a "summary execution", which is a very different thing. It is rather disingenuous.
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Call it what you like; A man is still dead, and he is dead because he mistakenly believed that he was not living in a police state, and subject to being killed on the spot on the whim of a man who was sworn to serve and protect.

I am sure it makes you feel much more comfortable to rationalise away his death as 'justified', but that is simply not the case.

It's completely unjustified for a law enforcement officer to kill a citizen who has not directly and clearly threatened his life, or the lives of others. Does that place officers at risk? Yes, of course. They accept that risk when they take the job.
 
Derec said:
The #BLM rioters are acting like animals!
'Broke his jaw:' Man in his 70s attacked while trying to protect burning Kenosha mattress store

WATCH NOW: Rioters setting fires in Kenosha, including to Danish Brotherhood Lodge

Kenosha car dealership sustained $1.5M in damage after first night of riots, report says

If Trump wins Wisconsin this November, thank the "trained Marxists" of "Black Lives Matter" ...
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Rioters riot. Stop clutching your pearls and acting all flustered and outraged. You're fooling nobody.

If people don't want riots, they need to choose to either fix the underlying grievances, or accept deliberate police massacres. Because the only way to stop a riot from leading to injury and destruction of property is either to massacre the participants; Or not to have a riot to begin with.

You might start to help with the latter by refraining from using riots as an opportunity to dehumanise those involved. They're not acting like animals, they're acting like humans who are powerless and oppressed have ALWAYS acted.
 
On a side note, is everyone here comfortable with cops having less fire discipline than soldiers in the middle of a warzone? When did that become a good thing?
 
Patooka said:
On a side note, is everyone here comfortable with cops having less fire discipline than soldiers in the middle of a warzone? When did that become a good thing?
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Oh they're disciplined alright.

On a regular basis white, gun-toting right wingers show up on the scene in the Michigan legislature or a government meeting in Idaho or a federal facility in Oregon or a ranch somewhere and despite an inordinate amount of firepower deployed with the expressed purpose of "fighting the evil government," the cops without fail go out of their way to de-escalate the situation. Semi-automatic weapons pointed directly at federal law enforcement officers by white militia folks? "Well, let's not let this get out of hand!"

Black guy pulled over for a broken tail light and he reaches for his cell phone? "Well, I thought it was a gun, knife, or other deadly weapon and I fired the entire contents of my magazine into his body mass because you just can't be too careful nowadays."

Selective fire, indeed...
 
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