This week in feminism: The Hottest Thing a Man Can Do Is Not Be a Jerk About Astrology

[Jarhyn]

Contempt for astrology is not evidence of what the authors claim.

But the authors are claiming that it is not contempt for astrology itself but contempt for the women (and presumably men) who believe in astrology.

Personally, I don't agree with much of their argument but I do agree with the portion I quoted upthread a while ago: men tend to discount/do not have respect for what they consider to be 'women's interests.' I've found this to be very generally true--as in, of course there are exceptions.

Contempt of astrology reflects onto believers in astrology. That's the nature of contempt.

"I like to create my own future, and like to be the master of my own fate" is a sufficient enough rebuttal when the subject comes up. It holds no contempt, but rather mere disregard.

Contempt is separate from merely holding it in low regard. Contempt bleeds into interpersonal exchanges, and infects the reaction a person has with the second party who enjoys the things ng they have contempt for; contempt reflects back onto people.

I behold antivaxx with contempt, and anyone who is antivaxx loses my respect. This reflection is fairly definitional of contempt.

 

[ruby sparks]

I find that women tend to discount many things that are considered "men's interests", but I don't need to blame it on the "matriarchy". Maybe if the authors had picked an "interest" that wasn't so worthy of disrespect by anyone who's reasonably intelligent, they could have made a decent argument.

Liking ballet? Or can you think of another one? Embroidery? Crochet?

On your first point, to be fair, there isn't really much matriarchy to blame, whereas there is patriarchy to at least a greater extent.

 

[laughing dog]

In my experience, I have known plenty of otherwise very good people who believe in astrology to some degree or Christianity or good luck charms, etc.... I suspect almost everyone believes in or holds something incredibly dumb to be true. IMO, that does not make them contemptible.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

I find that women tend to discount many things that are considered "men's interests", but I don't need to blame it on the "matriarchy". Maybe if the authors had picked an "interest" that wasn't so worthy of disrespect by anyone who's reasonably intelligent, they could have made a decent argument.

And her you are with your scare quotes helping to make the author’s point: something that tends to be of interest to women can be held in contempt/deemed worthy of disrespect by men.

Sigh. You'd be right if the reason for the disrespect had anything to do with the sex of the majority of the people interested in the subject. But astrology gets that treatment based on its own merits.

Ruby was right, you really are Metaphor's mirror image.

 

[ruby sparks]

I could go the rest of my lifetime not hearing from astrology believers and it still wouldn't be enough to erase for all the ones I've already heard from. Every time I hear someone saying they believe in astrology, my urge to punch them grows stronger.

If that makes me a sexist then it must make the women who said it online sexists too.

 

[Jarhyn]

I find that women tend to discount many things that are considered "men's interests", but I don't need to blame it on the "matriarchy". Maybe if the authors had picked an "interest" that wasn't so worthy of disrespect by anyone who's reasonably intelligent, they could have made a decent argument.

Liking ballet? Or can you think of another one? Embroidery? Crochet?

On your first point, to be fair, there isn't really much matriarchy to blame, whereas there is patriarchy to at least a greater extent.

Honestly, I don't get the huge hate-boner people here seem to have with astrology. Yes, I get that astrology has no predictive power. I get that there is no causal relationship between the stars and our lives and behaviors.

But it is not like astrology consumes vast quantities of otherwise useful money, does not demand people hate each other on the basis of trivia, and does not tell you to hate yourself for who you are. It generally does not recommend deferring medical treatment, nor does it recommend disregarding the nature of the universe as old. It is just not noxious in the way other beliefs are.

It is not in any way a belief worthy of disrespect, it is merely a belief that is not worthy of special respect.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

I find that women tend to discount many things that are considered "men's interests", but I don't need to blame it on the "matriarchy". Maybe if the authors had picked an "interest" that wasn't so worthy of disrespect by anyone who's reasonably intelligent, they could have made a decent argument.

Liking ballet? Or can you think of another one? Embroidery? Crochet?

On your first point, to be fair, there isn't really much matriarchy to blame, whereas there is patriarchy to at least a greater extent.

Yes, there is a patriarchy, and its influence is very damaging. But it's not responsible for everything.

Men who hold ballet in contempt probably have no use for any art form. Embroidery/crochet? Surely men have much less interest, but I haven't run into anyone who has contempt for them.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

I find that women tend to discount many things that are considered "men's interests", but I don't need to blame it on the "matriarchy". Maybe if the authors had picked an "interest" that wasn't so worthy of disrespect by anyone who's reasonably intelligent, they could have made a decent argument.

Liking ballet? Or can you think of another one? Embroidery? Crochet?

On your first point, to be fair, there isn't really much matriarchy to blame, whereas there is patriarchy to at least a greater extent.

Honestly, I don't get the huge hate-boner people here seem to have with astrology. Yes, I get that astrology has no predictive power. I get that there is no causal relationship between the stars and our lives and behaviors.

But it is not like astrology consumes vast quantities of otherwise useful money, does not demand people hate each other on the basis of trivia, and does not tell you to hate yourself for who you are. It generally does not recommend deferring medical treatment, nor does it recommend disregarding the nature of the universe as old. It is just not noxious in the way other beliefs are.

It is not in any way a belief worthy of disrespect, it is merely a belief that is not worthy of special respect.

Those who practice it claim it to be a sound basis for decision-making. How is that not noxious?

 

[ruby sparks]

Yes, there is a patriarchy, and its influence is very damaging. But it's not responsible for everything.

Indeed. Sometimes, it's overstated as an explanation, including in that article, imo.

 

[laughing dog]

Honestly, I don't get the huge hate-boner people here seem to have with astrology. Yes, I get that astrology has no predictive power. I get that there is no causal relationship between the stars and our lives and behaviors.

But it is not like astrology consumes vast quantities of otherwise useful money, does not demand people hate each other on the basis of trivia, and does not tell you to hate yourself for who you are. It generally does not recommend deferring medical treatment, nor does it recommend disregarding the nature of the universe as old. It is just not noxious in the way other beliefs are.

It is not in any way a belief worthy of disrespect, it is merely a belief that is not worthy of special respect.

Those who practice it claim it to be a sound basis for decision-making. How is that not noxious?

I don't understand the need to judge the decision-making protocols of others in such harsh terms.

 

[Toni]

I find that women tend to discount many things that are considered "men's interests", but I don't need to blame it on the "matriarchy". Maybe if the authors had picked an "interest" that wasn't so worthy of disrespect by anyone who's reasonably intelligent, they could have made a decent argument.

And her you are with your scare quotes helping to make the author’s point: something that tends to be of interest to women can be held in contempt/deemed worthy of disrespect by men.

Sigh. You'd be right if the reason for the disrespect had anything to do with the sex of the majority of the people interested in the subject. But astrology gets that treatment based on its own merits.

Ruby was right, you really are Metaphor's mirror image.

I’ve given examples m no of men’s irrational interests and been told that they are real.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

Honestly, I don't get the huge hate-boner people here seem to have with astrology. Yes, I get that astrology has no predictive power. I get that there is no causal relationship between the stars and our lives and behaviors.

But it is not like astrology consumes vast quantities of otherwise useful money, does not demand people hate each other on the basis of trivia, and does not tell you to hate yourself for who you are. It generally does not recommend deferring medical treatment, nor does it recommend disregarding the nature of the universe as old. It is just not noxious in the way other beliefs are.

It is not in any way a belief worthy of disrespect, it is merely a belief that is not worthy of special respect.

Those who practice it claim it to be a sound basis for decision-making. How is that not noxious?

I don't understand the need to judge the decision-making protocols of others in such harsh terms.

It was effed-up decision-making protocols that put a con man in the White House. Decisions have consequences, often for people besides the decision-maker.

 

[Jarhyn]

Honestly, I don't get the huge hate-boner people here seem to have with astrology. Yes, I get that astrology has no predictive power. I get that there is no causal relationship between the stars and our lives and behaviors.

But it is not like astrology consumes vast quantities of otherwise useful money, does not demand people hate each other on the basis of trivia, and does not tell you to hate yourself for who you are. It generally does not recommend deferring medical treatment, nor does it recommend disregarding the nature of the universe as old. It is just not noxious in the way other beliefs are.

It is not in any way a belief worthy of disrespect, it is merely a belief that is not worthy of special respect.

Those who practice it claim it to be a sound basis for decision-making. How is that not noxious?

Except that they generally do not consider it a "sound basis" for decision making in most contexts. "Take a risk today" on a horoscope isn't "a basis for decision making" beyond acting as a dice resolver for something people should, occasionally, do anyway. It's as valid to determine today is the day to randomly take a risk because mercury is in retrograde as it is to merely derive the suggestion from "I feel like it" as it is to roll 2d6 and take a minor risk on a roll of doubles.

A much more apt thing to consider "noxious" rather than "astrology" is "making big decisions on the basis of uninformed data." It has nothing to do with astrology, and everything to do with irresponsible behavior.

You are projecting your stereotype of "how astrology believers behave according to HB" rather than evaluating the whole individual.

 

[KeepTalking]

I find that women tend to discount many things that are considered "men's interests", but I don't need to blame it on the "matriarchy". Maybe if the authors had picked an "interest" that wasn't so worthy of disrespect by anyone who's reasonably intelligent, they could have made a decent argument.

Liking ballet? Or can you think of another one? Embroidery? Crochet?

On your first point, to be fair, there isn't really much matriarchy to blame, whereas there is patriarchy to at least a greater extent.

Honestly, I don't get the huge hate-boner people here seem to have with astrology. Yes, I get that astrology has no predictive power. I get that there is no causal relationship between the stars and our lives and behaviors.

But it is not like astrology consumes vast quantities of otherwise useful money, does not demand people hate each other on the basis of trivia, and does not tell you to hate yourself for who you are. It generally does not recommend deferring medical treatment, nor does it recommend disregarding the nature of the universe as old. It is just not noxious in the way other beliefs are.

It is not in any way a belief worthy of disrespect, it is merely a belief that is not worthy of special respect.

Astrology can certainly consume vast quantities of otherwise useful money, professional astrologers don't work for free, and like all con artists, they tend charge a pretty penny for that "work". Followers who dive deep into related mysticism like fortune tellers, psychics, tarot, palm reading, etc. can certainly open themselves up to influence that might encourage deferring medical treatment. As noted previously, Ronald and Nancy Reagan were devoted to Astrology, and relied on psychic advice for running the Country. That is a huge potential impact on peoples' lives.

 

[Jarhyn]

That isn't astrology per se, though. I might note I just said this:

A much more apt thing to consider "noxious" rather than "astrology" is "making big decisions on the basis of uninformed data."

How heavily someone is influenced by something and the contexts of that influence are separate and independent of the thing they are influenced by. That isn't a belief in astrology you are discrediting but rather a disbelief in or rejection of evidence based reasoning and specifically "making big decisions on the basis of uninformed data."

This is a different context from the article, wherein the critical action is independent of impact.

 

[laughing dog]

I don't understand the need to judge the decision-making protocols of others in such harsh terms.

It was effed-up decision-making protocols that put a con man in the White House. Decisions have consequences, often for people besides the decision-maker.

For all you know, for some people either the decision-making protocols were fine, but the data used was faulty or that they different valid priorities than you.

I am certain you have made poor decisions (like everyone, including myself) - does that mean your decision-making process is noxious and worthy of contempt?

 

[Toni]

Contempt for astrology is not evidence of what the authors claim.

But the authors are claiming that it is not contempt for astrology itself but contempt for the women (and presumably men) who believe in astrology.

Personally, I don't agree with much of their argument but I do agree with the portion I quoted upthread a while ago: men tend to discount/do not have respect for what they consider to be 'women's interests.' I've found this to be very generally true--as in, of course there are exceptions.

Contempt of astrology reflects onto believers in astrology. That's the nature of contempt.

"I like to create my own future, and like to be the master of my own fate" is a sufficient enough rebuttal when the subject comes up. It holds no contempt, but rather mere disregard.

Contempt is separate from merely holding it in low regard. Contempt bleeds into interpersonal exchanges, and infects the reaction a person has with the second party who enjoys the things ng they have contempt for; contempt reflects back onto people.

I behold antivaxx with contempt, and anyone who is antivaxx loses my respect. This reflection is fairly definitional of contempt.

I'm less concerned about contempt for astrology than the larger picture: contempt for women (except as so far as they conform to male 'norms.').

 

[skepticalbip]

Contempt of astrology reflects onto believers in astrology. That's the nature of contempt.

"I like to create my own future, and like to be the master of my own fate" is a sufficient enough rebuttal when the subject comes up. It holds no contempt, but rather mere disregard.

Contempt is separate from merely holding it in low regard. Contempt bleeds into interpersonal exchanges, and infects the reaction a person has with the second party who enjoys the things ng they have contempt for; contempt reflects back onto people.

I behold antivaxx with contempt, and anyone who is antivaxx loses my respect. This reflection is fairly definitional of contempt.

I'm less concerned about contempt for astrology than the larger picture: contempt for women (except as so far as they conform to male 'norms.').

'Contempt for women"?? WTF?
I understand that there is a small percentage of women who try to convince everyone that such a thing is universal among men. And there is a very small percentage of men where the claim would apply. But, in general, it is a bull shit claim.

I haven't yet understood the reason the small percentage of women buy into such angry, divisive ideas. Is it an excuse for personal failures, a belief that victimhood is cool, misandry, etc.? I have met a very few such women but generally avoid such toxic people. The women and men I know understand and accept that the two sexes are different and think differently. The difference is a mutual source for good natured humorous joking and teasing.

 

[Gun Nut]

Why Men Should (at Least Pretend to) Care About Astrology - InsideHook - I read it and I was very disappointed. Its author did not try to find out why those men dislike astrology.

Its logifical. Men hate thing. Women love thing. Therefore Men hate Women. do the math.

 

[Gun Nut]

I don't understand the need to judge the decision-making protocols of others in such harsh terms.

It was effed-up decision-making protocols that put a con man in the White House. Decisions have consequences, often for people besides the decision-maker.

For all you know, for some people either the decision-making protocols were fine, but the data used was faulty or that they different valid priorities than you.

I am certain you have made poor decisions (like everyone, including myself) - does that mean your decision-making process is noxious and worthy of contempt?

LD has a point (by which I mean I sort of agree) It's not the process but the set of facts. It is either raining outside right here or not. This is not a matter of opinion. I might be happy about it raining, because of my garden, and you may be sad about it, because of your ruined trip to the beach... our process was the same, though. The facts are same for us, the opinions are different because of our unique interests, but the means by which we decided (maximum personal benefit) was the same.

Reading your horoscope is not a decision making process, but a process of collecting what you might consider facts. These "facts" are random, vague, bullshit. Therefore your conclusions / decisions / opinions that are based on them are flawed at their core.