Flu vaccine mandatory at Cornell...for white students

[Toni]

Do you wake up every morning wondering how dishonest you can be that day? Like, let's see if I can beat yesterday''s record?

Arctish said:

Suppose a white student requests an exemption based on a personal experience that white people sometimes have and BIPOC persons never do. Would granting it be acceptable, or not?

And I answered:

I'm struggling to understand what kind of experience is exclusive to a particular race and is so generalisable that everyone of that race is rational to fear it and nobody of any other race has any business entertaining the possibility.

First, even if it were true that black people and only black people had been historically exploited by the government for experiments, that would not justify an exemption to the IPOC in BIPOC. But it simply isn't true. Race and sex were no barrier to unethical and unconsented US experimentation on humans.

Second, Henrietta Lacks was not treated any more or less unethically than any other patient would have been in the 1950s. She was singled out because she had some remarkable cells. I have no idea why you would even have linked me to that case.

I did not suggest all BIPOC are suspicious of the medical community. You can tell I didn't say it because the words do not appear. I said that for a race-based exemption to be reasonable, having the fear would need to be rational for a person of that race (unless Cornell give exemptions for irrational fears, in which case race needn't come into it--mentioning you have a fear would be enough).

Again, you are being dishonest. There is NO race-based exemption. There is NOTHING that says that if this worries you, you are exempt. In fact, clicking the link takes you to verbiage that attempts to dissuade anyone who might have some of these reservations from attempting to use them in order to obtain an exemption.

There ARE reasons that some BIPOC may have reservations about vaccinations. Whether or not Henrietta Lacks was treated the same as anyone would have been during that time period is debatable. It certainly was not the opinion of any of my genetics or immunology professors. Regardless, her cancer cells--a sample of cancerous cells were taken cultured and cell lines developed from these cells were and still are used to study and understand cancer, leading to treatments---and to generate income, of which her family saw nothing. Whether she would have been treated the same if she had been a white woman or a wealthy woman is conjecture. To many black persons, it is simply another example of white society making profits off of black bodies.

You wish your views to be taken seriously yet you refuse to attempt to understand the view point of people who have been treated as less than human for centuries.

 

[laughing dog]

Alternate interpretation--the original version didn't make it clear enough that BIPOC was a reason for an exemption.

Because being a BIPOC was NOT a reason for exemption.

Facts don't matter to the faithful believers.

 

[Toni]

Alternate interpretation--the original version didn't make it clear enough that BIPOC was a reason for an exemption.

Because being a BIPOC was NOT a reason for exemption.

Facts don't matter to the faithful believers.

True dat.

 

[Metaphor]

Again, you are being dishonest. There is NO race-based exemption.

Just fucking stop. I answered Arctish's hypothetical. The hypothetical is independent of whether Cornell is actually offering BIPOC exemptions from the flu vaccination. I believe that Cornell is either actually considering exemptions for BIPOC based on being BIPOC, and if it is not doing that, then it has sent out misleading virtue-signalling to its students.

I am not being dishonest. I might be mistaken, but I'm not being dishonest.

There is NOTHING that says that if this worries you, you are exempt. In fact, clicking the link takes you to verbiage that attempts to dissuade anyone who might have some of these reservations from attempting to use them in order to obtain an exemption.

We've talked about this already. I'm tired of talking about it. It mentions BIPOC concerns in the 'other exemptions' category, and it specifically tells BIPOC people that Cornell understands why they might have concerns and what to look at if they are 'considering an exemption'.

I'm tired of your wilful blindness and bullshit obtuseness. Even if you think there's 'nothing' there, I'm tired of you calling me a liar for believing there is something there. So fuck right off with doing that.

There ARE reasons that some BIPOC may have reservations about vaccinations. Whether or not Henrietta Lacks was treated the same as anyone would have been during that time period is debatable. It certainly was not the opinion of any of my genetics or immunology professors.

Well, great. Any other appeals to not even verifiable authority you want to make?

Regardless, her cancer cells--a sample of cancerous cells were taken cultured and cell lines developed from these cells were and still are used to study and understand cancer, leading to treatments---and to generate income, of which her family saw nothing. Whether she would have been treated the same if she had been a white woman or a wealthy woman is conjecture. To many black persons, it is simply another example of white society making profits off of black bodies.

You wish your views to be taken seriously yet you refuse to attempt to understand the view point of people who have been treated as less than human for centuries.

I know how the woke work, Toni. It's 'listen to marginalised voices...as long as the marginalised voices say what we want'.

I've said that US institutions and the government has a long list of unethical actions and race and sex were no barrier. If anything, I would say class played the biggest role. If BIPOC people have concerns about vaccination because of the history of US institutions unethical experimenting, then so do white people. White people were not exempt.

 

[Toni]

Just fucking stop. I answered Arctish's hypothetical. The hypothetical is independent of whether Cornell is actually offering BIPOC exemptions from the flu vaccination. I believe that Cornell is either actually considering exemptions for BIPOC based on being BIPOC, and if it is not doing that, then it has sent out misleading virtue-signalling to its students.

I am not being dishonest. I might be mistaken, but I'm not being dishonest.



We've talked about this already. I'm tired of talking about it. It mentions BIPOC concerns in the 'other exemptions' category, and it specifically tells BIPOC people that Cornell understands why they might have concerns and what to look at if they are 'considering an exemption'.

I'm tired of your wilful blindness and bullshit obtuseness. Even if you think there's 'nothing' there, I'm tired of you calling me a liar for believing there is something there. So fuck right off with doing that.

There ARE reasons that some BIPOC may have reservations about vaccinations. Whether or not Henrietta Lacks was treated the same as anyone would have been during that time period is debatable. It certainly was not the opinion of any of my genetics or immunology professors.

Well, great. Any other appeals to not even verifiable authority you want to make?

Regardless, her cancer cells--a sample of cancerous cells were taken cultured and cell lines developed from these cells were and still are used to study and understand cancer, leading to treatments---and to generate income, of which her family saw nothing. Whether she would have been treated the same if she had been a white woman or a wealthy woman is conjecture. To many black persons, it is simply another example of white society making profits off of black bodies.

You wish your views to be taken seriously yet you refuse to attempt to understand the view point of people who have been treated as less than human for centuries.

I know how the woke work, Toni. It's 'listen to marginalised voices...as long as the marginalised voices say what we want'.

I've said that US institutions and the government has a long list of unethical actions and race and sex were no barrier. If anything, I would say class played the biggest role. If BIPOC people have concerns about vaccination because of the history of US institutions unethical experimenting, then so do white people. White people were not exempt.

Yes, you are mistaken. Utterly and completely mistaken. And at this point, quite willfully so.

My apologies for crediting you with greater understanding than you are willing to admit.

 

[Metaphor]

Just fucking stop. I answered Arctish's hypothetical. The hypothetical is independent of whether Cornell is actually offering BIPOC exemptions from the flu vaccination. I believe that Cornell is either actually considering exemptions for BIPOC based on being BIPOC, and if it is not doing that, then it has sent out misleading virtue-signalling to its students.

I am not being dishonest. I might be mistaken, but I'm not being dishonest.



We've talked about this already. I'm tired of talking about it. It mentions BIPOC concerns in the 'other exemptions' category, and it specifically tells BIPOC people that Cornell understands why they might have concerns and what to look at if they are 'considering an exemption'.

I'm tired of your wilful blindness and bullshit obtuseness. Even if you think there's 'nothing' there, I'm tired of you calling me a liar for believing there is something there. So fuck right off with doing that.




Well, great. Any other appeals to not even verifiable authority you want to make?




I know how the woke work, Toni. It's 'listen to marginalised voices...as long as the marginalised voices say what we want'.

I've said that US institutions and the government has a long list of unethical actions and race and sex were no barrier. If anything, I would say class played the biggest role. If BIPOC people have concerns about vaccination because of the history of US institutions unethical experimenting, then so do white people. White people were not exempt.

Yes, you are mistaken. Utterly and completely mistaken. And at this point, quite willfully so.

My apologies for crediting you with greater understanding than you are willing to admit.

Yes, I'm mistaken about the long list of unethical experimentation on humans that happened to people of all ages, all races, and both sexes.

Bye.

 

[blastula]

What I think you may have seen as badly written was the article that misrepresented the policy as if black people automatically get excluded because they are black, not what is in the university's policy statement...

This is getting ridiculous. I have explicitly quoted what I thought was poorly written by Cornell, no guessing needed what I meant. And I have never agreed that Cornell said POCs would be automatically exempted. The OP articles don't even say that, they just say POCs are offered an exemption that whites aren't. So are you simply misreading, or is it that you are being "disingenuous" now?

that ANYBODY can ask for an exemption, and being historically suspicious of vaccinations because you are part of a group once targeted for unethical medial experiments is simply one example of an acceptable reason.

And no it doesn't clearly say that now, that anybody can ask for one. It used to say that clearly as shown in the archived pages, but it doesn't as of now.

Yeesh, it's like an illiteracy virus has spread through this entire thread and nobody wants to take the vaccine.

 

[Toni]

Just fucking stop. I answered Arctish's hypothetical. The hypothetical is independent of whether Cornell is actually offering BIPOC exemptions from the flu vaccination. I believe that Cornell is either actually considering exemptions for BIPOC based on being BIPOC, and if it is not doing that, then it has sent out misleading virtue-signalling to its students.

I am not being dishonest. I might be mistaken, but I'm not being dishonest.



We've talked about this already. I'm tired of talking about it. It mentions BIPOC concerns in the 'other exemptions' category, and it specifically tells BIPOC people that Cornell understands why they might have concerns and what to look at if they are 'considering an exemption'.

I'm tired of your wilful blindness and bullshit obtuseness. Even if you think there's 'nothing' there, I'm tired of you calling me a liar for believing there is something there. So fuck right off with doing that.




Well, great. Any other appeals to not even verifiable authority you want to make?




I know how the woke work, Toni. It's 'listen to marginalised voices...as long as the marginalised voices say what we want'.

I've said that US institutions and the government has a long list of unethical actions and race and sex were no barrier. If anything, I would say class played the biggest role. If BIPOC people have concerns about vaccination because of the history of US institutions unethical experimenting, then so do white people. White people were not exempt.

Yes, you are mistaken. Utterly and completely mistaken. And at this point, quite willfully so.

My apologies for crediting you with greater understanding than you are willing to admit.

Yes, I'm mistaken about the long list of unethical experimentation on humans that happened to people of all ages, all races, and both sexes.

Bye.

The common factor for all of those test subjects was their lack of power: prisoners, often black. Orphaned children. Indigent people. Overly represented were: black people, and other persons of color.

Imagine you are in an abusive relationship with a partner who claims to have changed. Although they have—there are definite improvements, they are still controlling, still exert power over you, still occasionally commit acts of violence against you. Mostly it’s just psychological. You’re stuck in the relationship and you are expected to forget the past and to treat the occasional lesser abuse as isolated rather than systemic. How much do you trust the gift they proffer? How much do you trust the new promise when so many have been broken?

 

[laughing dog]

Yes, I'm mistaken about the long list of unethical experimentation on humans that happened to people of all ages, all races, and both sexes.

For some reason, you seem unable to parse that the issue is that the US GOV"T sanctioned and conducted the experiments on black people. Your list is filled with non-gov't experiments.

Whether you think a group has the logical or emotional right to fear US gov't experiments on them is irrelevant to the issue that a group may have the fear. The fact white people do not have this fear is irrelevant to the issue. Why they don't have this fear is irrelevant to the issue. Whether you think that fear is a good reason for an exemption is also irrelevant to the issue.

 

[Rhea]

No: the point is not extremely clear. It isn't clear at all. Cornell's page is poorly written, and Arctish's rewrite has not resolved that. If it is the case that other exemptions for BIPOC will not be considered solely on the basis of 'historical mistrust', then Cornell has introduced confusion with its desperate desire to signal its virtue.

If one is searching high and low for a reason to feel victimized by efforts to deal with genuine historic wrongs in America, if, indeed one is from Australia and does not have the clue that white people in America have about how genuinely historic that is, one can, indeed, find this unclear if one insists. The majority of Cornell students are educated enough to understand this policy and why it is written the way it is.

My goodness I didn't know so many people on talkfreethought were personally acquainted with the majority of the Cornell student body.

Goodness, now you know.

I have many co-workers who are alums, family members who are alums, friends who work on campus, and I do corporate recruiting there speaking to hundreds of students. Don’t know everyone there, but I seem to know a shitload more about the local Zeitgeist than you do.

 

[Metaphor]

Yes, I'm mistaken about the long list of unethical experimentation on humans that happened to people of all ages, all races, and both sexes.

For some reason, you seem unable to parse that the issue is that the US GOV"T sanctioned and conducted the experiments on black people. Your list is filled with non-gov't experiments.

So what? Is Cornell the government?

 

[Metaphor]

My goodness I didn't know so many people on talkfreethought were personally acquainted with the majority of the Cornell student body.

Goodness, now you know.

I have many co-workers who are alums, family members who are alums, friends who work on campus, and I do corporate recruiting there speaking to hundreds of students. Don’t know everyone there, but I seem to know a shitload more about the local Zeitgeist than you do.

What's their opinion of how Cornell has decided to speak about exemptions to flu vaccinations?

 

[laughing dog]

Yes, I'm mistaken about the long list of unethical experimentation on humans that happened to people of all ages, all races, and both sexes.

For some reason, you seem unable to parse that the issue is that the US GOV"T sanctioned and conducted the experiments on black people. Your list is filled with non-gov't experiments.

So what? Is Cornell the government?

You are mistaken - obtuseness is not a convincing tactic.

 

[Metaphor]

So what? Is Cornell the government?

You are mistaken - obtuseness is not a convincing tactic.

I think it's time for you to have a nap, laughing dog.

Why is 'the issue' that the US gov't 'sanctioned and conducted the experiments on black people'? Did it not also do it to white people? (I assure you, it did).

There's no reason for BIPOC qua BIPOC to be especially concerned about Cornell's flu vaccination.

* People of all races have been unethically experimented on by the US gov't or its agencies
* People of all races have been unethically experimented on by US institutions that are not the gov't

 

[laughing dog]

Why is 'the issue' that the US gov't 'sanctioned and conducted the experiments on black people'?

For some reason you feel you need to understand why it is an issue for the black community. This is not about you. It is about their reaction and views.

Did it not also do it to white people? (I assure you, it did).

Again with the obtuseness. Apparently the white community is not concerned with this.

There's no reason for BIPOC qua BIPOC to be especially concerned about Cornell's flu vaccination.

I am sure that will reassure everyone there after you make that public announcement.

* People of all races have been unethically experimented on by the US gov't or its agencies
* People of all races have been unethically experimented on by US institutions that are not the gov't

So what?

 

[Metaphor]

For some reason you feel you need to understand why it is an issue for the black community. This is not about you. It is about their reaction and views.
Again with the obtuseness. Apparently the white community is not concerned with this.

There's no reason for BIPOC qua BIPOC to be especially concerned about Cornell's flu vaccination.

I am sure that will reassure everyone there after you make that public announcement.

* People of all races have been unethically experimented on by the US gov't or its agencies
* People of all races have been unethically experimented on by US institutions that are not the gov't

So what?

Well of course when I have questions about the 'black community' I turn to their leader Toni.

I don't know how you know what the 'white community' is or is not concerned with. Are there monthly meetings I'm missing?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I imagine Cornell University administration would clarify its policy when they become aware of confusion in its intended audience. Perhaps the lack of clarification to date signifies the intended audience is not as confused as you appear.

Correct. And the BIPOCs understood the dog whistle. Mission accomplished, no revision needed.

What dog whistle would that be?

Quit playing stupid, you know what dog whistle.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Alternate interpretation--the original version didn't make it clear enough that BIPOC was a reason for an exemption.

Because being a BIPOC was NOT a reason for exemption.

And you know this how?

Of course it shouldn't be but there's no reason to mention BIPOCs other than to suggest that it is a reason for an exemption.

 

[Toni]

Alternate interpretation--the original version didn't make it clear enough that BIPOC was a reason for an exemption.

Because being a BIPOC was NOT a reason for exemption.

And you know this how?

Of course it shouldn't be but there's no reason to mention BIPOCs other than to suggest that it is a reason for an exemption.

Because I can read. And reason.
Acknowledging potential concerns about a policy is not the same thing as providing an exemption from following a policy.

 

[Toni]

My goodness I didn't know so many people on talkfreethought were personally acquainted with the majority of the Cornell student body.

Goodness, now you know.

I have many co-workers who are alums, family members who are alums, friends who work on campus, and I do corporate recruiting there speaking to hundreds of students. Don’t know everyone there, but I seem to know a shitload more about the local Zeitgeist than you do.

Yeah but it's not like you're a right wing nut job with a job at an Australian 'news paper.' Or someone who's never been to the US.