New "Affirmative Action" nonsense

[SimpleDon]

Firstly, it isn't discrimination. Whites and Asians are not having their applications tossed in a shredder.

I don't know what to say. I guess you really believe that. The cognitive dissonance must be pretty bad. I've tried to tell people about my first-hand experience as a "disadvantaged" minority applying to college in the United States and how it very clearly was discrimination in favor of me against others because of their race. It always seems to be ignored.

It does seem like a fairly straightforward point. If someone gets moved up the queue because of their race, then it means that someone who was ahead of them got bumped off of the queue so their spot could be taken by the person benefitting from AA. Whether one thinks that's good, bad or neutral is another question, but it's clearly a thing that's happening.

What's this stupidity??

Good proposals do not have bad results. AA is a good proposal. Therefore it can't have bad results.

Why are you claiming otherwise?????

Huh?

Unfortunately, a lot of people on both sides don't seem to get the fact that something done with good intentions (AA) can have bad results.

What bad results do you see? Once again, the medical schools produce the doctors that we need. There is no ranking by grades and MCAT score. They accept the best students based on many criteria that includes scores but so much more.

Do you consider it to be a bad result that they admit fewer suburban kids because we have enough doctors in the suburbs and admit more people who live in the cities and the rural areas? Is this somehow acceptable but it is not to include race?

My son went to medical school. He had to wait for a year and to reapply to be accepted. He worked in a hospice during that year. He also learned Spanish in that extra year. This delayed acceptance is becoming the standard to prove that he wanted to be a doctor, he was easily accepted the second time around.

His interview the first time that he applied lasted four hours. The interview the second time came down to "Everything seems to be in order. You will hear from us formally in a few days. Congratulations."

 

[SimpleDon]

Of course it's reasonable to have doctor of all races. America does have doctors of all races. It is not reasonable, however, to discriminate against some races to achieve that goal.

Why? Is it not reasonable to discriminate against the people who aren't committed to medicine, who say that they will try it for a year to see if they like it? Is it not reasonable to discriminate against the suburban applicants because we have too many suburban doctors already?

The medical schools are allowed to consider race in admissions because of affirmative action in order to increase the number of minority doctors, if they chose to. This is an attempt to redress past racial discrimination that prevented minorities and women from being accepted into medical school. It has been somewhat successful in the medical schools.

The medical schools want all of their students to be committed to medicine. It is one of many factors that determine who they admit, but the most important to the medical schools. The number of people of a certain race who are accepted doesn't indicate any greater commitment to medicine by race. That is silly.

You've lost me. Either you believe medical schools are using 'commitment to medicine' as a criterion or they are not. Which is it?

If that is a third major criterion they are using (in addition to aptitude and achievement), then, when controlling for aptitude and achievement, the admissions acceptance rates show Blacks and Latinos to be the most committed to medicine, followed by Whites, followed by Asians, who are the least committed.

Perhaps you can answer my question. Why do you think that this woman's claim of racial discrimination has anything to do with affirmative action? Did she claim that the school wasn't following their own policies? Does this university even have a racial affirmative action policy?

I don't know if the school has an affirmative action policy.

Then why do you think that this claim of racial discrimination has anything to do with affirmative action?

Medical schools do use commitment to medicine as one of many factors. A candidate that is deemed not to be committed to medicine will not be accepted no matter what their scores are, no matter what any other qualities that they have. This idea that the degree of commitment to medicine must vary by the race of the candidate is your ridiculous idea. If you don't understand your own argument then I suggest that you not use in I don't pretend to understand it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What bad results do you see? Once again, the medical schools produce the doctors that we need. There is no ranking by grades and MCAT score. They accept the best students based on many criteria that includes scores but so much more.

I see discrimination. I'm inclined to say it's even more evil than Jim Crow because it's done with good intentions despite the obvious bad result--when you think you're doing good there's less pressure to stop the evil.

Do you consider it to be a bad result that they admit fewer suburban kids because we have enough doctors in the suburbs and admit more people who live in the cities and the rural areas? Is this somehow acceptable but it is not to include race?

You go off to college. Then you go off to medical school. Then you go off to your internship. Then you go off to your residency. That's likely 4 moves. By the time they're ready to practice they've spent 1/3 of their life away from wherever they grew up--they're likely to move to where the job prospects are good, not where they grew up. Thus it makes no sense to choose people based on where they live.

- - - Updated - - -

The medical schools are allowed to consider race in admissions because of affirmative action in order to increase the number of minority doctors, if they chose to. This is an attempt to redress past racial discrimination that prevented minorities and women from being accepted into medical school. It has been somewhat successful in the medical schools.

In other words, discriminate against people who did nothing wrong because others discriminated against still others, none of whom are currently involved.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I see discrimination. I'm inclined to say it's even more evil than Jim Crow because it's done with good intentions despite the obvious bad result--when you think you're doing good there's less pressure to stop the evil.

Do you consider it to be a bad result that they admit fewer suburban kids because we have enough doctors in the suburbs and admit more people who live in the cities and the rural areas? Is this somehow acceptable but it is not to include race?

You go off to college. Then you go off to medical school. Then you go off to your internship. Then you go off to your residency. That's likely 4 moves. By the time they're ready to practice they've spent 1/3 of their life away from wherever they grew up--they're likely to move to where the job prospects are good, not where they grew up. Thus it makes no sense to choose people based on where they live.

- - - Updated - - -

The medical schools are allowed to consider race in admissions because of affirmative action in order to increase the number of minority doctors, if they chose to. This is an attempt to redress past racial discrimination that prevented minorities and women from being accepted into medical school. It has been somewhat successful in the medical schools.

In other words, discriminate against people who did nothing wrong because others discriminated against still others, none of whom are currently involved.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

and letting a wrong stand And continue to perpetuate itself doesn't correct itself.
i
Got another solution or just platitudes, cliches and simplistic attempts at moralizing?

 

[Metaphor]

Why?

Asked and answered already. It's morally wrong to discriminate based on race, and further arbitrary discrimination based on race cannot possibly redress the wrongs done to people dead and buried.

You obviously believe it is not wrong to discriminate arbitrarily based on race, in which case you should have no problem with the Jim Crow South.

Is it not reasonable to discriminate against the people who aren't committed to medicine, who say that they will try it for a year to see if they like it?

It is reasonable.

Is it not reasonable to discriminate against the suburban applicants because we have too many suburban doctors already?

No, that would not be reasonable. If you need doctor who will practice in places other than the suburbs, you can ask them where they intend to practice; you don't just get to assume where they'll go. If you don't trust the answer they give you, then you offer people bonded scholarships to practice for x number of years in certain locations.

Australia does this: there is a shortage of doctors in non-coastal regional areas. There is absolutely no problem with offering scholarships to medical students, or special visa conditions to imported doctors, in order to address the shortage.

What is not okay is taking someone from an non-coastal regional area and simply assuming they'll go back there, and give them extra points on that basis. Not only is that not okay, it's frankly ridiculous.

The medical schools are allowed to consider race in admissions because of affirmative action in order to increase the number of minority doctors, if they chose to. This is an attempt to redress past racial discrimination that prevented minorities and women from being accepted into medical schoo

l.

Then it cannot succeed, because no action can redress the wrongs of those wronged and long since dead. Worse, it wrongs new generations, as Asians and Whites learn that they need higher grades and MCAT scores to get into medical school compared to Black and Latino students.

It has been somewhat successful in the medical schools.

If its success measure is based on its ability to redress past wrongs, its success rate is zero.

If its success measure is based on how many higher-scoring students are pushed out because lower-scoring favoured minorities are needed for the numbers, then I agree it's been a success. When you purposefully discriminate based on race it should not be surprising to find you've discriminated based on race.

Then why do you think that this claim of racial discrimination has anything to do with affirmative action?

I don't and never said I did?!?

Medical schools do use commitment to medicine as one of many factors. A candidate that is deemed not to be committed to medicine will not be accepted no matter what their scores are, no matter what any other qualities that they have. This idea that the degree of commitment to medicine must vary by the race of the candidate is your ridiculous idea. If you don't understand your own argument then I suggest that you not use in I don't pretend to understand it.

Of course I don't believe that commitment to medicine varies with the race of the candidate: it is your argument that implies that.

For marginal applicants, that is those applicants with middling MCAT scores and middling GPAs, only a very, percentagewise, are selected. Now it just happens that when you control for MCAT score and GPA, Black and Latino candidates are two times, three times, sometimes eight times more likely to be admitted compared to White or Asian applicants. If 'commitment to medicine' is the number one criterion in these medical schools, and medical schools are good at measuring it, the differential admisson rates by race implies to me that marginally-qualified Blacks and Latinos are astronomically more committed to medicine than Whites, who are more committed than Asians.

Now, I don't actually find that plausible, so I doubt 'commitment to medicine' explains the differential admission rates by race of marginally qualified candidates. Plain old discrimination by race, however, explains it well, since it's the historically disfavoured groups being advantaged.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Black and Latino candidates are two times, three times, sometimes eight times more likely to be admitted compared to White or Asian applicants.

Source?

 

[Metaphor]

Black and Latino candidates are two times, three times, sometimes eight times more likely to be admitted compared to White or Asian applicants.

Source?

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

First thing to notice: they have different grids by race. They have different grids, because medical schools discriminate based on race.

There are a lot of cells to comment on, but first, the acceptance rates for Asian applicants with an MCAT score 24-26, and a GPA of 2.80-2.99, was 6.8% (191 applicants in that category, 13 acceptances).

Now find the acceptance rate of Black applicants with the same MCAT score and GPA: 37.6% accepted (221 applicants, 83 succesful).

That is an odds ratio of 5.5. Black candidates with that GPA and MCAT score are five and a half times more likely to be accepted than Asian candidates with identical academic credentials and aptitude scores.

There are cells that show an even bigger discrepancy, but I don't want to draw firm conclusions from the lowest GPA/MCAT groupings because the number of candidates accepted from those cells is small and statistical inferences would be unreliable. However, it is worth noting that they are all generally in the same direction: as academic achievement and medical aptitude decreases, the gap between Black and Asian acceptance rates increases, favouring Blacks.

I've presented these tables many times on the old board. Of course, it didn't change anyone's mind if they're determined not to believe that affirmative action is discrimination by race, or if they do believe that and just don't care.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Black and Latino candidates are two times, three times, sometimes eight times more likely to be admitted compared to White or Asian applicants.

Source?

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

First thing to notice: they have different grids by race. They have different grids, because medical schools discriminate based on race.

There are a lot of cells to comment on, but first, the acceptance rates for Asian applicants with an MCAT score 24-26, and a GPA of 2.80-2.99, was 6.8% (191 applicants in that category, 13 acceptances).

Now find the acceptance rate of Black applicants with the same MCAT score and GPA: 37.6% accepted (221 applicants, 83 succesful).

That is an odds ratio of 5.5. Black candidates with that GPA and MCAT score are five and a half times more likely to be accepted than Asian candidates with identical academic credentials and aptitude scores.

There are cells that show an even bigger discrepancy, but I don't want to draw firm conclusions from the lowest GPA/MCAT groupings because the number of candidates accepted from those cells is small and statistical inferences would be unreliable. However, it is worth noting that they are all generally in the same direction: as academic achievement and medical aptitude decreases, the gap between Black and Asian acceptance rates increases, favouring Blacks.

I've presented these tables many times on the old board. Of course, it didn't change anyone's mind if they're determined not to believe that affirmative action is discrimination by race, or if they do believe that and just don't care.

what is your solution or do you not find this a problem?

 

[Metaphor]

Black and Latino candidates are two times, three times, sometimes eight times more likely to be admitted compared to White or Asian applicants.

Source?

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

First thing to notice: they have different grids by race. They have different grids, because medical schools discriminate based on race.

There are a lot of cells to comment on, but first, the acceptance rates for Asian applicants with an MCAT score 24-26, and a GPA of 2.80-2.99, was 6.8% (191 applicants in that category, 13 acceptances).

Now find the acceptance rate of Black applicants with the same MCAT score and GPA: 37.6% accepted (221 applicants, 83 succesful).

That is an odds ratio of 5.5. Black candidates with that GPA and MCAT score are five and a half times more likely to be accepted than Asian candidates with identical academic credentials and aptitude scores.

There are cells that show an even bigger discrepancy, but I don't want to draw firm conclusions from the lowest GPA/MCAT groupings because the number of candidates accepted from those cells is small and statistical inferences would be unreliable. However, it is worth noting that they are all generally in the same direction: as academic achievement and medical aptitude decreases, the gap between Black and Asian acceptance rates increases, favouring Blacks.

I've presented these tables many times on the old board. Of course, it didn't change anyone's mind if they're determined not to believe that affirmative action is discrimination by race, or if they do believe that and just don't care.

what is your solution or do you not find this a problem?

Define the problem. If the problem is 'we need to redress 400 years of discrimination against people who are long since dead' then there is no solution. It is certainly the case that discriminating against smart White and Asian kids applying to medical school cannot address it; it can only create a new cycle of discrimination based on race.

Whilst this new cycle is different from past discrimination, it has its own unique toxic effects. It targets individuals from ethnic groups where the ethnic group is doing too well. It does not attempt to remove advantage from individuals who have unfairly benefited from past discrimination (and I've already explained elsewhere that everyone is the worse off for past discrimination having taken place). It simply takes a narrow set of occupations (like law and medical school) and disadvantages the smart kids trying to get in (if they're White or Asian).

I once read an essay (from a speech) by Bill Clinton in support of affirmative action. Do you think Chelsea Clinton is going to be a victim to it? I guarantee you she won't be touched -- it'll be ordinary kids from middle and working class backgrounds who are smart enough to get a shot at medical or law school that will (and do) suffer from it. Do a web search on medical school + ethnicity. Asians are told outright by course advisers their MCAT scores will need to be higher than those of other ethnicities to get an equivalent shot.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I see discrimination. I'm inclined to say it's even more evil than Jim Crow because it's done with good intentions despite the obvious bad result--when you think you're doing good there's less pressure to stop the evil.

Do you consider it to be a bad result that they admit fewer suburban kids because we have enough doctors in the suburbs and admit more people who live in the cities and the rural areas? Is this somehow acceptable but it is not to include race?

You go off to college. Then you go off to medical school. Then you go off to your internship. Then you go off to your residency. That's likely 4 moves. By the time they're ready to practice they've spent 1/3 of their life away from wherever they grew up--they're likely to move to where the job prospects are good, not where they grew up. Thus it makes no sense to choose people based on where they live.

- - - Updated - - -

The medical schools are allowed to consider race in admissions because of affirmative action in order to increase the number of minority doctors, if they chose to. This is an attempt to redress past racial discrimination that prevented minorities and women from being accepted into medical school. It has been somewhat successful in the medical schools.

In other words, discriminate against people who did nothing wrong because others discriminated against still others, none of whom are currently involved.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

and letting a wrong stand And continue to perpetuate itself doesn't correct itself.
i
Got another solution or just platitudes, cliches and simplistic attempts at moralizing?

You're not addressing my point.

You are not undoing past discrimination. Those who were kept out of college won't magically get in now--they aren't even applying. They're more likely applying for social security.

 

[Toni]

Black and Latino candidates are two times, three times, sometimes eight times more likely to be admitted compared to White or Asian applicants.

Source?

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

First thing to notice: they have different grids by race. They have different grids, because medical schools discriminate based on race.

There are a lot of cells to comment on, but first, the acceptance rates for Asian applicants with an MCAT score 24-26, and a GPA of 2.80-2.99, was 6.8% (191 applicants in that category, 13 acceptances).

Now find the acceptance rate of Black applicants with the same MCAT score and GPA: 37.6% accepted (221 applicants, 83 succesful).

That is an odds ratio of 5.5. Black candidates with that GPA and MCAT score are five and a half times more likely to be accepted than Asian candidates with identical academic credentials and aptitude scores.

There are cells that show an even bigger discrepancy, but I don't want to draw firm conclusions from the lowest GPA/MCAT groupings because the number of candidates accepted from those cells is small and statistical inferences would be unreliable. However, it is worth noting that they are all generally in the same direction: as academic achievement and medical aptitude decreases, the gap between Black and Asian acceptance rates increases, favouring Blacks.

I've presented these tables many times on the old board. Of course, it didn't change anyone's mind if they're determined not to believe that affirmative action is discrimination by race, or if they do believe that and just don't care.

what is your solution or do you not find this a problem?

Define the problem. If the problem is 'we need to redress 400 years of discrimination against people who are long since dead' then there is no solution. It is certainly the case that discriminating against smart White and Asian kids applying to medical school cannot address it; it can only create a new cycle of discrimination based on race.

Whilst this new cycle is different from past discrimination, it has its own unique toxic effects. It targets individuals from ethnic groups where the ethnic group is doing too well. It does not attempt to remove advantage from individuals who have unfairly benefited from past discrimination (and I've already explained elsewhere that everyone is the worse off for past discrimination having taken place). It simply takes a narrow set of occupations (like law and medical school) and disadvantages the smart kids trying to get in (if they're White or Asian).

I once read an essay (from a speech) by Bill Clinton in support of affirmative action. Do you think Chelsea Clinton is going to be a victim to it? I guarantee you she won't be touched -- it'll be ordinary kids from middle and working class backgrounds who are smart enough to get a shot at medical or law school that will (and do) suffer from it. Do a web search on medical school + ethnicity. Asians are told outright by course advisers their MCAT scores will need to be higher than those of other ethnicities to get an equivalent shot.

If only discrimination was in the past and against people who are long since dead! It's not, not by a long shot.

In fact, as a group, members of certain ethnicity in the US have been discriminated against their entire lives, and in fact, before their birth when their mothers were less likely to receive good nutrition or good medical care. Black, Hispanic and Native students are more likely to have grown up in poverty, more likely to attend a poorly funded school, more likely to live with significant exposure and threat from violence in their neighborhoods and schools, for starters. They are more likely to be arrested and to be convicted and to receive longer jail sentences than their white counterparts, and to be arrested, convicted and incarcerated for less serious offenses. It doesn't stop then: members of these groups are also assumed to be less qualified, less intelligent, less deserving, regardless of their own accomplishments, socioeconomic status, family status. It is quite possible to be an extremely well educated, highly successful black person in the U.S. and to still be refused service or to be arrested in your own home because someone thought you looked like you didn't belong there, in that neighborhood, that home that you have lived in for years. Because you are black.

How many generations should children have to wait to have a fair chance at life?

You'd also have a much bigger point if MCAT scores and GPA were the entire basis of admissions to med school. They aren't and while you may not like the idea, you cannot demonstrate that current medical school admissions standards are admitting students who are not qualified to be admitted. In fact, very few medical students fail to successfully complete medical school. Medical schools seem to be doing an excellent job of screening candidates who truly wish to become physicians.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I see discrimination. I'm inclined to say it's even more evil than Jim Crow because it's done with good intentions despite the obvious bad result--when you think you're doing good there's less pressure to stop the evil.

Do you consider it to be a bad result that they admit fewer suburban kids because we have enough doctors in the suburbs and admit more people who live in the cities and the rural areas? Is this somehow acceptable but it is not to include race?

You go off to college. Then you go off to medical school. Then you go off to your internship. Then you go off to your residency. That's likely 4 moves. By the time they're ready to practice they've spent 1/3 of their life away from wherever they grew up--they're likely to move to where the job prospects are good, not where they grew up. Thus it makes no sense to choose people based on where they live.

- - - Updated - - -

The medical schools are allowed to consider race in admissions because of affirmative action in order to increase the number of minority doctors, if they chose to. This is an attempt to redress past racial discrimination that prevented minorities and women from being accepted into medical school. It has been somewhat successful in the medical schools.

In other words, discriminate against people who did nothing wrong because others discriminated against still others, none of whom are currently involved.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

and letting a wrong stand And continue to perpetuate itself doesn't correct itself.
i
Got another solution or just platitudes, cliches and simplistic attempts at moralizing?

You're not addressing my point.

You are not undoing past discrimination. Those who were kept out of college won't magically get in now--they aren't even applying. They're more likely applying for social security.

i got your point Loren. I got your point a long time ago. and i get your point everytime you post in one of these threads. the international space station sees your point. And you still don't have a solution now do you? But then again maybe you don't think there is a problem, or that there ever was one.

 

[Metaphor]

If only discrimination was in the past and against people who are long since dead! It's not, not by a long shot.

You are correct: government-sanctioned discrimination by race continues on in the form of affirmative action.

In fact, as a group,

And we're off and running!

members of certain ethnicity in the US have been discriminated against their entire lives, and in fact, before their birth when their mothers were less likely to receive good nutrition or good medical care.

If you're positing that a significant number of minority children, but not Asians, are literally brain-damaged from poor nutrition in utero, I assume you have evidence of that? And if that is what you are saying, what makes you think having lower entry standards for the affected group to medical degrees addresses anything at all?

Black, Hispanic and Native students are more likely to have grown up in poverty, more likely to attend a poorly funded school, more likely to live with significant exposure and threat from violence in their neighborhoods and schools, for starters. They are more likely to be arrested and to be convicted and to receive longer jail sentences than their white counterparts, and to be arrested, convicted and incarcerated for less serious offenses.

So...what? Are the White people who have grown up in poverty less deserving than your favoured minorities? And the Asians who have grown up in poverty, are they even less deserving than Whites?

Are you suggesting that the majority of people who have been convicted of crime are innocent, and it's merely racist policing that's responsible for the numbers?

If Black people as a group have a higher arrest and conviction rate, how on earth does that justify lower standards for medical school for that group?

It doesn't stop then: members of these groups are also assumed to be less qualified, less intelligent, less deserving, regardless of their own accomplishments, socioeconomic status, family status. It is quite possible to be an extremely well educated, highly successful black person in the U.S. and to still be refused service or to be arrested in your own home because someone thought you looked like you didn't belong there, in that neighborhood, that home that you have lived in for years. Because you are black.

So, we need to discriminate against selected White and Asian people to redress this?

How many generations should children have to wait to have a fair chance at life?

Tell me, by exactly how much should medical schools lower their standards to admit Sasha and Malia? After all, they're from the repressed group, are they not?

You'd also have a much bigger point if MCAT scores and GPA were the entire basis of admissions to med school. They aren't and while you may not like the idea,

Okay. Now I'm going to lose my patience with your strawmanning and I'ma start fucking swearing. I have, not ever, anywhere in time or space or the universe at alpha or omega ever ever said MCAT and GPA should be the entire basis of admission to anything. So, for the umpteenth time, will you please fucking drop the idea that I said that or believe it.

you cannot demonstrate that current medical school admissions standards are admitting students who are not qualified to be admitted.

And for the umpteenth fucking time, I never said 'not qualified'. I've said minority students (except Asians) do not have to reach the same standards of admission as other students, and the admission rates by race are proof. The Australian Public Service can advertise a job and rate any number of candidates 'suitable', but that does not mean every candidate is as qualified as every other. There's still an order of merit for everyone rated suitable, and the job is offered to the highest person on that order of merit.

In fact, very few medical students fail to successfully complete medical school. Medical schools seem to be doing an excellent job of screening candidates who truly wish to become physicians.

This is all completely and totally irrelevant. It has no connection to anything I've said and I don't know why you'd posit it.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I see discrimination. I'm inclined to say it's even more evil than Jim Crow because it's done with good intentions despite the obvious bad result--when you think you're doing good there's less pressure to stop the evil.

Do you consider it to be a bad result that they admit fewer suburban kids because we have enough doctors in the suburbs and admit more people who live in the cities and the rural areas? Is this somehow acceptable but it is not to include race?

You go off to college. Then you go off to medical school. Then you go off to your internship. Then you go off to your residency. That's likely 4 moves. By the time they're ready to practice they've spent 1/3 of their life away from wherever they grew up--they're likely to move to where the job prospects are good, not where they grew up. Thus it makes no sense to choose people based on where they live.

- - - Updated - - -

The medical schools are allowed to consider race in admissions because of affirmative action in order to increase the number of minority doctors, if they chose to. This is an attempt to redress past racial discrimination that prevented minorities and women from being accepted into medical school. It has been somewhat successful in the medical schools.

In other words, discriminate against people who did nothing wrong because others discriminated against still others, none of whom are currently involved.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

and letting a wrong stand And continue to perpetuate itself doesn't correct itself.
i
Got another solution or just platitudes, cliches and simplistic attempts at moralizing?

You're not addressing my point.

You are not undoing past discrimination. Those who were kept out of college won't magically get in now--they aren't even applying. They're more likely applying for social security.

i got your point Loren. I got your point a long time ago. and i get your point everytime you post in one of these threads. the international space station sees your point. And you still don't have a solution now do you? But then again maybe you don't think there is a problem, or that there ever was one.

Why should Loren be expected to provide a solution in order to point out the racist and backward nature of the proposed solution he is addressing?

Perhaps Loren has some ideas of how to fix things, but that is completely irrelevant to his assessment of the claimed solution he's addressing.

 

[doubtingt]

Why should Loren be expected to provide a solution in order to point out the racist and backward nature of the proposed solution he is addressing?

Perhaps Loren has some ideas of how to fix things, but that is completely irrelevant to his assessment of the claimed solution he's addressing.

Apparently, you aren't familiar with the time-honored wisdom at the root of affirmative action: "If you can't fix it, then just break it some more."

 

[laughing dog]

I think this thread has the wrong title. It should read "Same Old Anti-Affirmative Action Nonsense".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If only discrimination was in the past and against people who are long since dead! It's not, not by a long shot.

In fact, as a group, members of certain ethnicity in the US have been discriminated against their entire lives, and in fact, before their birth when their mothers were less likely to receive good nutrition or good medical care. Black, Hispanic and Native students are more likely to have grown up in poverty, more likely to attend a poorly funded school, more likely to live with significant exposure and threat from violence in their neighborhoods and schools, for starters.

The only thing on your list that could possibly be discrimination is the poorly funded school--and that's not usually the case. The crap schools aren't underfunded, it's that they need to spend more on other things.

They are more likely to be arrested and to be convicted and to receive longer jail sentences than their white counterparts, and to be arrested, convicted and incarcerated for less serious offenses.

This looks like discrimination until you dig into the details. There's no racial bias, but rather an economic one. A poor black defendant fares no worse than a poor white one. We need to revamp our justice system but it isn't discriminating.

It doesn't stop then: members of these groups are also assumed to be less qualified, less intelligent, less deserving, regardless of their own accomplishments, socioeconomic status, family status.

Yeah, your side assumes them to be inferior. There would be no reason for AA otherwise.

It is quite possible to be an extremely well educated, highly successful black person in the U.S. and to still be refused service or to be arrested in your own home because someone thought you looked like you didn't belong there, in that neighborhood, that home that you have lived in for years. Because you are black.

The cases I hear about are people who don't look like they fit economically. Look poor in a rich neighborhood and the cops are likely to think you're up to no good.

How many generations should children have to wait to have a fair chance at life?

The problem isn't society, it's the parents and the neighborhoods.

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You are not undoing past discrimination. Those who were kept out of college won't magically get in now--they aren't even applying. They're more likely applying for social security.

i got your point Loren. I got your point a long time ago. and i get your point everytime you post in one of these threads. the international space station sees your point. And you still don't have a solution now do you? But then again maybe you don't think there is a problem, or that there ever was one.

If you get it why don't you address it?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why should Loren be expected to provide a solution in order to point out the racist and backward nature of the proposed solution he is addressing?

Perhaps Loren has some ideas of how to fix things, but that is completely irrelevant to his assessment of the claimed solution he's addressing.

I don't know how to fix it.

I do know that step #1 of fixing it has to be to identify the actual problem--the chances of fixing an unidentified or misidentified problem are remote. Beating the discrimination drum is not identifying the actual problem.

 

[fromderinside]

If racism is the primary factor in black income inequity and income class how does treating income class as an opportunity expanding college enrollment get at racism?

 

[J842P]

If racism is the primary factor in black income inequity and income class how does treating income class as an opportunity expanding college enrollment get at racism?

If people want to give assistance to the disadvantaged then it should be based on income class metrics like "net income of parents," or "educational level of parents." Discriminating based on race is problematic for the same reasons that it is always problematic to discriminate based on race.

Also, it seems to be an assumption that the only races in the United States are Black People and White People.