Harriet Tubman on the $20 bill

[DrZoidberg]

Tubman fought against economic exploitation in all its forms, she wasn't just an abolitionist.

This is a getting a bit old now. Please stop making this thread an anti-Tubman thread. It's tiresome. I never claimed she wasn't. I also never claimed that Tubman isn't deserving of being honoured. Just stop reading things into what I'm saying, that I didn't say.

You are very incorrect that the South "would have" immediately abolished slavery without compulsion. They didn't even truly end the practice after the war in real life, exploiting the obvious loophole in the law to create "chain gangs" of former slaves now imprisoned and thus still vulnerable to legal enslavement, a situation that continues to this day in many southern states. They do not care that it ultimately costs them money; they enslave because they can, not because it profits them.

At no point did I say "immediately". You just made that up. The last remnants of slavery in South America disappeared in the 1910's by the process I described. It's a pattern we see everywhere a modern economy emerges.

Yes, USA is an anomaly in how it uses the prison population. But the point of the system isn't to generate money. USA has an unusually large proportion of it's population in jail. So they have an incentive to lessen the fiscal impact of having all those people in jail. When Americans designed the harsh legal system at no point did anybody say that the motivation for it is to earn money for the state. A person in an American jail chain-gang will never generate more money to the government by their labour than what it costs having them in jail. Which you've already admitted. So it's a completely different concept than regular slavery.

 

[Mumbles]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55808324

This strikes me as odd. While Benjamin Franklin wasn't a president, he is a founding father. The rest of them are presidents. If they do want to make an anti-slavery symbol, wouldn't it be more appropriate to put Obama on the £20 note? While Harriet Tubman is an important black figure historically, she was a one trick pony. She never rose to gain any political power. She was certainly never seen as a leader of white and black alike.

I get the feeling that putting her on the $20 bill feels like throwing the black community a bone, rather than acknowledging blacks as equals. Which putting Obama on the $20 would do.

Is my reasoning crazy?

Well, you're certainly laughably wrong, since among other things, the Tubman $20 was pushed for by the Women on 20s campaign, rather than some sort of "bone" that Biden (or Obama) came up with on their own. In fact, you can see a photo of the campaign founder right here.

That's not how politics works. It doesn't matter who first came up with the idea. What matters is what president or politician pushes it through their ruling body. And their motivations for doing so.

What are you even talking about, that's exactly how much of politics works, and it always matters who came up with it first and what support they get. Some group says "We want X", organize and campaign for it, they gain followers who agree or opponents who disagree, and after that is when a politician (in this case Barack Obama) notes it and may or may not accept it. Only reason it initially stopped is that Toupee Fiasco loves Andrew Jackson, and hates black people. Calling it a "bone" from the same president who rebuilt the Civil Rights division of the DoJ, pushed for equal education access, created My Brother's Keeper, and pushed for criminal justice reform, among many other issues, is absurd.

 

[Gospel]

EL15

What matters is what president or politician pushes it through their ruling body. And their motivations for doing so.

Which would be

"Some group says "We want X"

Duh.

 

[Politesse]

This is a getting a bit old now. Please stop making this thread an anti-Tubman thread. It's tiresome. I never claimed she wasn't. I also never claimed that Tubman isn't deserving of being honoured. Just stop reading things into what I'm saying, that I didn't say.

This is a baffling statement to me. You made an entire thread whining about her long-delayed assignment to the twenty, supposedly on the basis of some bullshit rule you made up about it needing to be a president on the bill, which is obviously untrue, and accusing the Treasury of pandering to African-Americans on the basis of no evidence. And now you're repeating the white nationalist mantra that the Civil War wasn't about abolishing slavery. Literally no one believes that this isn't about race for you. Sorry. If you don't want to come across that way, think about the implications of what you post before you do. If all you post here is white nationalist propaganda, that will become your identity in the eyes of others whether you agree to it or not.

 

[DrZoidberg]

That's not how politics works. It doesn't matter who first came up with the idea. What matters is what president or politician pushes it through their ruling body. And their motivations for doing so.

What are you even talking about, that's exactly how much of politics works, and it always matters who came up with it first and what support they get. Some group says "We want X", organize and campaign for it, they gain followers who agree or opponents who disagree, and after that is when a politician (in this case Barack Obama) notes it and may or may not accept it. Only reason it initially stopped is that Toupee Fiasco loves Andrew Jackson, and hates black people. Calling it a "bone" from the same president who rebuilt the Civil Rights division of the DoJ, pushed for equal education access, created My Brother's Keeper, and pushed for criminal justice reform, among many other issues, is absurd.

I think you are wrong. But either way, it really doesn't matter for this discussion. No matter who came up with the idea, it's the American population, as a collective that has to accept it. Because if they don't, the next president will just change the $20 to some other person more popular.

I think you are splitting hairs.

 

[Gospel]

I think you are wrong. But either way, it really doesn't matter for this discussion. No matter who came up with the idea, it's the American population, as a collective that has to accept it. Because if they don't, the next president will just change the $20 to some other person more popular.

I think you are splitting hairs.

Whether or not the next president would change who's on the $20.00 is irrelevant, a minor concern & unimportant. Your comment checks all the boxes for splitting hairs.

 

[thebeave]

Let's just all be thankful that no one is pushing to put Tubgirl on the $20 bill.

Dang, you're right! "TubMAN" is so SEXIST!
I'm making a sign and going out to protest!

My comment has nothing to do with sexism, and your response indicates that you are not familiar with Tubgirl. I'm just going to leave it at that.

 

[Gospel]

See, it's no fun when other people try to misunderstand what you are saying on purpose. I think I have made my point.

No, I don't see your point. The United States Of America has changed a lot since the last time they selected who'd appear on our paper money. Back then they had an inclusion issues (to say the least). America has changed substantially since then and this change was brought about by people like Harriet Tubman and many others (who are not all black btw). You're the one being dishonest because you intended to drive home the theme was statemen all along yet posed it as a question. You even suggested another statesmen (Obama) to keep with the theme because you believe it would be more respectful to black people by some strange show of inclusion by keeping true to form. Problem is, I DON'T GIVE A FUCK about staying true to form and I haven't met a single black person who says no to Hariet being on the bill. Have you? Do you even know any black people? If inclusion is the reason for adding a black person on paper currency (which it obviously is) then I being included in the choice say fuck the statesman criteria because many of my people did not have the opportunity to become statesman in the early times of this country. Hariet would have made a better statesman than any of those pricks in office anyway.


Sorry for being too honest i guess.

Which brings me back to my earlier point. Why not exchange all the people on the money? Why not have a new theme. That's what most countries do when they break from the pattern? When Sweden removed its kings, it did it on all the money. Denmark did the same thing. I think that's a general theme with money around the world. There typically is a unifying theme. I think it's a good thing to help people identify which bills are American money.

I get the feeling that your reaction is based on that you seem to think that the only way to discuss this is to be for or against racism, and you put me in the racism box. But there are other dimensions in this other than to be for or against racism.

I haven't made racism the topic nor have I even used the word racism this entire time. I was replying to this,

Again, I was never questioning whether to put Tubman on the money. You just made that up.

Really? Because the person who did the OP said a lot of stuff indicating why someone else should be on the money instead of Tubman.

Yes, really. I suggest reading it again. I merely pointed out that the other people on the money were statesmen, and Tubman isn't. If they're to follow the existing theme of the money, then Tubman doesn't fit that theme. You then, in your crazy head, made that into me arguing against putting Tubman on the money, as if she's not good enough, or not worthy.

Do you acknowledge that there is a theme regarding who is featured on the American money? Or do you reject the idea that there's any kind of pattern regarding what people are on it?

when stating I DONT GIVE A FUCK about the statesmen criteria. My people did not have the opportunity to become statesman in the early times of this country. Meaning Harriet Tubman could have well been a stateswoman however certain unfair restrictions were in place at that time. Do you think it's in the American government's best interest (according to law) to uphold the statesman criteria for historical black people who were not allowed to become statesmen in their time?



I don't mind a change in the theme at all & I also don't mind the statesman theme one bit, it however is unfortunately not a good criteria to keep in place for historical black figures. Also what is not unifying about adding minority groups to US currency? It doesn't have to stop at black people by the way.

Last thing:

I think it's a good thing to help people identify which bills are American money.

WTF are you talking about here? Is not enough that each bill has in bold THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA written on it?

 

[Swammerdami]

... I merely pointed out that the other people on the money were statesmen, and Tubman isn't. If they're to follow the existing theme of the money, then Tubman doesn't fit that theme....

Over a billion Sacagawea $1 coins have been minted. She was not a statesman. (Yes, Sacajawea has already been mentioned, but I'm spelling her differently. )

[Historical note: The Lewis & Clark Expedition had great need of translators. Only Sacagawea spoke Shoshone, the dominant tribe for an important leg of the journey. Her only other language was Hidatsa; the only other Hidatsa speaker was her husband Tousaaint Charbonneau, who spoke no English. Captain Meriwether Lewis didn't speak French so yet a third translator (Francois Labiche) was needed when Lewis negotiated with the local Shoshone chieftain (who happened to be the brother Sacagawea hadn't seen for 3 years!)]

 

[Politesse]

That's not how politics works. It doesn't matter who first came up with the idea. What matters is what president or politician pushes it through their ruling body. And their motivations for doing so.

What are you even talking about, that's exactly how much of politics works, and it always matters who came up with it first and what support they get. Some group says "We want X", organize and campaign for it, they gain followers who agree or opponents who disagree, and after that is when a politician (in this case Barack Obama) notes it and may or may not accept it. Only reason it initially stopped is that Toupee Fiasco loves Andrew Jackson, and hates black people. Calling it a "bone" from the same president who rebuilt the Civil Rights division of the DoJ, pushed for equal education access, created My Brother's Keeper, and pushed for criminal justice reform, among many other issues, is absurd.

I think you are wrong. But either way, it really doesn't matter for this discussion. No matter who came up with the idea, it's the American population, as a collective that has to accept it. Because if they don't, the next president will just change the $20 to some other person more popular.

I think you are splitting hairs.

This decision did not originate with the president, it was the result of an internal project of the DoT and has been in the works for many years, informed by a three month long campaign to solicit perspectives and proposals from the American public at large. Trump and his Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin put it on hold for racist reasons, vowing that it would never change while he was in office. Now that he isn't, Biden is once again greenlighting the project to proceed as originally planned. That is his only involvement. The completed redesigns were all supposed to debut last year, in the initial version of this plan, the whole thing is badly behind schedule, exactly because of presidential meddling.

 

[laughing dog]

This is a getting a bit old now. Please stop making this thread an anti-Tubman thread. It's tiresome. I never claimed she wasn't. I also never claimed that Tubman isn't deserving of being honoured. Just stop reading things into what I'm saying, that I didn't say.

When you write that pointing Tubman on currency is throwing a bone to African americans, you are tacitly saying Tubman does not deserve that distinction.

 

[Politesse]

Over a billion Sacagawea $1 coins have been minted. She was not a statesman.

Neither was Martha Washington, who used to grace the dollar, or Susan B. Anthony, who formerly had Sacajawea's spot. As Gospel notes, this is a reflection on the difficulty of becoming a female statesman in 1780, not any intrinsic deficiency on Martha's part.

Salmon Chase, on the $10,000 note, was a statesman but not a president.

 

[TomC]

I think you are wrong. But either way, it really doesn't matter for this discussion. No matter who came up with the idea, it's the American population, as a collective that has to accept it. Because if they don't, the next president will just change the $20 to some other person more popular.

I think you are splitting hairs.

This decision did not originate with the president, it was the result of an internal project of the DoT and has been in the works for many years, informed by a three month long campaign to solicit perspectives and proposals from the American public at large. Trump and his Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin put it on hold for racist reasons, vowing that it would never change while he was in office. Now that he isn't, Biden is once again greenlighting the project to proceed as originally planned. That is his only involvement. The completed redesigns were all supposed to debut last year, in the initial version of this plan, the whole thing is badly behind schedule, exactly because of presidential meddling.

Pretty much this.

Virtually nobody who can see beyond race and gender will object to Tubman on a currency note. Her story really is an inspiring piece of Americana.

Who's portrait appears on USA currency is hardly an important problem. And it does cost a fair amount to make a big change. From Bush to Trump, the Federal government has already spent a ton of money rescuing the country from Republican policies. Our deficits and debt are outrageous! We don't need another expense.

Even I, a fiscal conservative, think that this is a good one. It's way past time to start breaking the "theme" [MENTION=65]DrZoidberg[/MENTION]; has referred to.

Just do it.

Tom

 

[Bomb#20]

Over a billion Sacagawea $1 coins have been minted. She was not a statesman.

Neither was Martha Washington, who used to grace the dollar, or Susan B. Anthony, who formerly had Sacajawea's spot. As Gospel notes, this is a reflection on the difficulty of becoming a female statesman in 1780, not any intrinsic deficiency on Martha's part.

It's difficult to be a female statesman even in 2021; but seems to me Sacagawea and Susan B. Anthony qualify as stateswomen. You don't have to be elected to office to be a successful diplomat or political reformer.

 

[Jayjay]

I suggest Martha Washington, the fictional character from "Give Me Liberty" and "Martha Washington Goes to War" comics. Then everyone is happy.

The republicans approve because it's named after Martha Washington.

The democrats approve because she's black.

The trumpist crackpots, racists and fascists approve because it's by Frank Miller.

 

[Politesse]

Over a billion Sacagawea $1 coins have been minted. She was not a statesman.

Neither was Martha Washington, who used to grace the dollar, or Susan B. Anthony, who formerly had Sacajawea's spot. As Gospel notes, this is a reflection on the difficulty of becoming a female statesman in 1780, not any intrinsic deficiency on Martha's part.

It's difficult to be a female statesman even in 2021; but seems to me Sacagawea and Susan B. Anthony qualify as stateswomen. You don't have to be elected to office to be a successful diplomat or political reformer.

Then so is Tubman. She did play a role in a political organization, and later held unofficial military rank during the War.

 

[Gospel]

It's difficult to be a female statesman even in 2021; but seems to me Sacagawea and Susan B. Anthony qualify as stateswomen. You don't have to be elected to office to be a successful diplomat or political reformer.

Then so is Tubman. She did play a role in a political organization, and later held unofficial military rank during the War.

They all sound great. Lets give all the old rusty men the boot and get these ladies on the money. I can't wait to make it rain Sacagawea, Susan B's and Tubman's up in the club.

 

[Keith&Co.]

It's difficult to be a female statesman even in 2021; but seems to me Sacagawea and Susan B. Anthony qualify as stateswomen. You don't have to be elected to office to be a successful diplomat or political reformer.

Then so is Tubman. She did play a role in a political organization, and later held unofficial military rank during the War.

They all sound great. Lets give all the old rusty men the boot and get these ladies on the money. I can't wait to make it rain Sacagawea, Susan B's and Tubman's up in the club.

You get thrown out. They won't stay in the G-string, and the girls slip on the coins.
But if you ever worked the deposits at the bank branch by the strip clubs, you want money you can boil.

 

[Politesse]

It's difficult to be a female statesman even in 2021; but seems to me Sacagawea and Susan B. Anthony qualify as stateswomen. You don't have to be elected to office to be a successful diplomat or political reformer.

Then so is Tubman. She did play a role in a political organization, and later held unofficial military rank during the War.

They all sound great. Lets give all the old rusty men the boot and get these ladies on the money. I can't wait to make it rain Sacagawea, Susan B's and Tubman's up in the club.

Well, the original plan involved a lot more badass women on currency. I'm not sure whether it's all still in the works, but the proposal in round 2 also involved Marian Anderson, Alice Paul, and Susan B. again, on the backside of the $10.

 

[Politesse]

They all sound great. Lets give all the old rusty men the boot and get these ladies on the money. I can't wait to make it rain Sacagawea, Susan B's and Tubman's up in the club.

You get thrown out. They won't stay in the G-string, and the girls slip on the coins.
But if you ever worked the deposits at the bank branch by the strip clubs, you want money you can boil.

Soon this will be the only regular use of paper currency.