Can a new Cold War be avoided?

[barbos]

Well, russian ukrainians disagree with you and don't want to "move" toward West.
What are you gonna do with that?

And it seems EU does not offer anything in terms immediate help to the current government. I think they realized it would be a waste and wait for better conditions.

The difference is that the west offers friendly economic incentives to the Eastern European countries, while Russia uses force and coercion.

You really are a sponge for propaganda.
Speaking of coercion, remember Kosovo?

 

[barbos]

Well, russian ukrainians disagree with you and don't want to "move" toward West.

Why even bother calling them Ukrainians? They're Russians, so wherever they choose to live should be part of Russia!

Maybe we could have something where everyone who is Russian - regardless of where they were born or live - could be declared as their own independent sovereign republic?

So if you were a Russian living in New York City, you could declare yourself part of Russia and you'd be justified in inviting vacationing Russian soldiers to defend your apartment building. Of course, the biased press in the decadent West might call you a "separatist" or a "rebel," but what you really are is a Russian just trying to be free from NATO, the US, and any Nazis you happened to encounter.

That's a thing, Crimea was part of Russia. And even south-east of Ukraine was too part of Russia, it was formally given to Ukraine when Ukraine was part of Russia. Simple redistricting within Russian Empire. Now, if these ukrainian nazies had any brain they would not be alienating 30% of their population and territory which was essentially conditionally gifted to them. But they don't have any brain, they are nazi.

Kosovo on the other hand have never been Albania, yet somehow, someway EU/US decided to separate them from Serbia.

 

[Jayjay]

Really? Russia taking over? really?
Are you that dutch now?

You should have realized by now that I use "Russia" and "separatists" interchangeably, because the latter is just a tool of the former. And yes, the Donetsk airport is the main area where the ceasefire is strained. I am predicting that once Russia has solidified its position and sent enough tanks to run over the Ukrainian positions there, they will.

we'll know for sure soon enough, but what is clear is that the ceasefire has not held in certain areas, while it has overall stopped the Russian expansion to Mariupol and towards Crimea.

This whole debacle started with Yanukovich refusing to sign the EU association agreement. It would not have caused any immediate harm to Russia, but it would have ruled out Ukraine's future membership in any customs union, which is why Russia decided that it's worth destabilizing the entire country. Now I think Russia is just waiting for Ukraine to stew and grow disillusioned with the West (because frankly, Ukraine is a basket case economy and it will not get any help from EU or US, and the pendulum is bound to swing back at some point) and fall back to the arms of mother Russia.

Yes whole mess started with that. Yanukovich refused to sign EU association agreement because it was essentially political death warrant to him. You can't really blame a politician for that. Had he signed it, economy would immediately crater and he would lose reelection.
Funny thing is, maidan people who kicked Yanikovich out refused to sign it too, despite promise to sign it the very next day and despite promised money from EU. The whole thing looks like it was ingeniously designed (by EU) to create a chaos in Ukraine.

As if EU would have that kind of planning. An organization that needs consensus from dozens of small states to make any decision isn't capable of the kind of machiavellian conspiracies. The EU-Ukraine association agreement itself wasn't a bad economic deal to Ukraine, the only thing that would make it so is possible Russian retaliation.

 

[Ford]

But they don't have any brain, they are nazi.

I totally read that in Yakov Smirnoff's voice.

What a country!

 

[barbos]

You should have realized by now that I use "Russia" and "separatists" interchangeably, because the latter is just a tool of the former.

Stop doing that, or at least apply for a job on FoxNews

And yes, the Donetsk airport is the main area where the ceasefire is strained. I am predicting that once Russia has solidified its position and sent enough tanks to run over the Ukrainian positions there, they will.

Bullshit and lies.

we'll know for sure soon enough, but what is clear is that the ceasefire has not held in certain areas, while it has overall stopped the Russian expansion to Mariupol and towards Crimea.

This whole debacle started with Yanukovich refusing to sign the EU association agreement. It would not have caused any immediate harm to Russia, but it would have ruled out Ukraine's future membership in any customs union, which is why Russia decided that it's worth destabilizing the entire country. Now I think Russia is just waiting for Ukraine to stew and grow disillusioned with the West (because frankly, Ukraine is a basket case economy and it will not get any help from EU or US, and the pendulum is bound to swing back at some point) and fall back to the arms of mother Russia.

Yes whole mess started with that. Yanukovich refused to sign EU association agreement because it was essentially political death warrant to him. You can't really blame a politician for that. Had he signed it, economy would immediately crater and he would lose reelection.
Funny thing is, maidan people who kicked Yanikovich out refused to sign it too, despite promise to sign it the very next day and despite promised money from EU. The whole thing looks like it was ingeniously designed (by EU) to create a chaos in Ukraine.

As if EU would have that kind of planning. An organization that needs consensus from dozens of small states to make any decision isn't capable of the kind of machiavellian conspiracies. The EU-Ukraine association agreement itself wasn't a bad economic deal to Ukraine, the only thing that would make it so is possible Russian retaliation.

It was a bad deal for Ukraine and horrible deal for Yanukovich personally.
Whether it was planned that way or not I don't know.

 

[bleubird]

The only real issue is what do the corporations want.


everything else is mute.

 

[barbos]

The only real issue is what do the corporations want.


everything else is mute.

Yes, and in this particular case it's news corporations and they want (not surprisingly) money.
And to get money they need ads and to get ads they need viewers and to get viewers they need to show what these viewers want and not what they don't want, and in this particular case they don't want to see serious discussion and true journalism, they want the usual "U-S-A! U-S-A!, We are the greatest and we are always right!"

 

[arkirk]

Russian and American military spending as percentage of GDP is about the same, ~4%.

Jayjay: I doubt either of us are allowed even a clue how much is spent on the military in either our country or Russia. The enemy's very knowing size of the actual budget would tip the military's hand as to the intent and capabilties of their enemy. We would not be allowed to be privy to that information. Just ask Loren. He will tell you it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. It certainly is a lot more than 4%. That information however is about as private as corporate bank accounts in the Caiman Islands. When you live in a kleptocracy you will not be given that type of information, and if you are given any information it will only be to quiet your fears and believe without any actual proof.

 

[Togo]

It was a bad deal for Ukraine and horrible deal for Yanukovich personally.

How so?

 

[Thomas II]

 

[Harry Bosch]

The only real issue is what do the corporations want.


everything else is mute.

Yes, and in this particular case it's news corporations and they want (not surprisingly) money.
And to get money they need ads and to get ads they need viewers and to get viewers they need to show what these viewers want and not what they don't want, and in this particular case they don't want to see serious discussion and true journalism, they want the usual "U-S-A! U-S-A!, We are the greatest and we are always right!"

I've given up trying to argue against you regarding anything Russia. I'm done. However, would you at least acknowledge that it would be wrong for Russia to invade other soverign nations? Would you at least draw a line and denounce "little green men" invading in the Baltic states, Finland, and/or Poland? I'm just curious to find out how far you are prepared to defend Putin.

 

[barbos]

Yes, and in this particular case it's news corporations and they want (not surprisingly) money.
And to get money they need ads and to get ads they need viewers and to get viewers they need to show what these viewers want and not what they don't want, and in this particular case they don't want to see serious discussion and true journalism, they want the usual "U-S-A! U-S-A!, We are the greatest and we are always right!"

I've given up trying to argue against you regarding anything Russia. I'm done. However, would you at least acknowledge that it would be wrong for Russia to invade other soverign nations? Would you at least draw a line and denounce "little green men" invading in the Baltic states, Finland, and/or Poland? I'm just curious to find out how far you are prepared to defend Putin.

You keep acting as if it is established fact that Russia invaded Ukraine.
So your question is nothing but a provocation, please rephrase it.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I've given up trying to argue against you regarding anything Russia. I'm done. However, would you at least acknowledge that it would be wrong for Russia to invade other soverign nations? Would you at least draw a line and denounce "little green men" invading in the Baltic states, Finland, and/or Poland? I'm just curious to find out how far you are prepared to defend Putin.

You keep acting as if it is established fact that Russia invaded Ukraine.
So your question is nothing but a provocation, please rephrase it.

<sigh> Ignoring Ukraine, would you agree that Russian invasion of any Eastern European countries would be wrong? I'm trying to find out where your line is. Or is your support of Russia unconditional?

 

[barbos]

You keep acting as if it is established fact that Russia invaded Ukraine.
So your question is nothing but a provocation, please rephrase it.

<sigh> Ignoring Ukraine, would you agree that Russian invasion of any Eastern European countries would be wrong? I'm trying to find out where your line is. Or is your support of Russia unconditional?

No need to ignore anything. So try again

 

[Harry Bosch]

<sigh> Ignoring Ukraine, would you agree that Russian invasion of any Eastern European countries would be wrong? I'm trying to find out where your line is. Or is your support of Russia unconditional?

No need to ignore anything. So try again

So you are unwilling to draw any line that Russia could cross? Wow, I wish you could have said that a long time ago, would have saved me a lot of time attempting to debate you.

 

[barbos]

No need to ignore anything. So try again

So you are unwilling to draw any line that Russia could cross? Wow, I wish you could have said that a long time ago, would have saved me a lot of time attempting to debate you.

All I am saying your line of questioning is provocative.
I can say that I am on record criticizing Putin for things like cracking down on free press and opposition.
I think Russia and Putin himself could already afford a little bit of free press and healthy opposition.

As for invading countries that would be bad, regardless who is doing it. But then US has invaded a lot of countries using phony excuses.
So I think there is a bit of projecting on West's part when they are talking about invasions.

 

[laughing dog]

As for invading countries that would be bad, regardless who is doing it. But then US has invaded a lot of countries using phony excuses.
So I think there is a bit of projecting on West's part when they are talking about invasions.

The argument that "other people do it" does not justify an action.

 

[Harry Bosch]

So you are unwilling to draw any line that Russia could cross? Wow, I wish you could have said that a long time ago, would have saved me a lot of time attempting to debate you.

All I am saying your line of questioning is provocative.
I can say that I am on record criticizing Putin for things like cracking down on free press and opposition.
I think Russia and Putin himself could already afford a little bit of free press and healthy opposition.

As for invading countries that would be bad, regardless who is doing it. But then US has invaded a lot of countries using phony excuses.
So I think there is a bit of projecting on West's part when they are talking about invasions.

I don't see the need for a derail. But for the record, I was against the US invasion of Iraq. Back on topic: you're issue is that you don't believe the world media that Russia is invading Eastern Ukraine? Question: if it could be demonstrated they are, would you continue supporting Russia?

 

[barbos]

All I am saying your line of questioning is provocative.
I can say that I am on record criticizing Putin for things like cracking down on free press and opposition.
I think Russia and Putin himself could already afford a little bit of free press and healthy opposition.

As for invading countries that would be bad, regardless who is doing it. But then US has invaded a lot of countries using phony excuses.
So I think there is a bit of projecting on West's part when they are talking about invasions.

I don't see the need for a derail. But for the record, I was against the US invasion of Iraq. Back on topic: you're issue is that you don't believe the world media that Russia is invading Eastern Ukraine? Question: if it could be demonstrated they are, would you continue supporting Russia?

I don't consider low level meddling (which I have no doubt Russians are doing) an invasion.
After all, US is meddling too, so nothing wrong with proportional meddling.
I put the the blame for the whole mess on US. Specifically US should not have supported Yanukovich removal. And fundamental reason is NATO expansion and explicit support any regime which is hostile to Russia.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I don't see the need for a derail. But for the record, I was against the US invasion of Iraq. Back on topic: you're issue is that you don't believe the world media that Russia is invading Eastern Ukraine? Question: if it could be demonstrated they are, would you continue supporting Russia?

I don't consider low level meddling (which I have no doubt Russians are doing) an invasion.
After all, US is meddling too, so nothing wrong with proportional meddling.
I put the the blame for the whole mess on US. Specifically US should not have supported Yanukovich removal. And fundamental reason is NATO expansion and explicit support any regime which is hostile to Russia.

So you think that the US "meddling" in Ukraine is equal to the Russian meddling?